Summit Point Raceway being repaved this week
If the weather holds up, the Main Track will have a brand new coat of asphalt in time for Friday at the Track on 10/12. I'll be there laying down the first rubber.
Woo hoo!
Has anyone driven on a freshly repaved track? Should I expect my lap times to go down right away, or does it take some time for the new surface to get "seasoned"?
Anyone else going to be there on Friday?
Woo hoo!
Has anyone driven on a freshly repaved track? Should I expect my lap times to go down right away, or does it take some time for the new surface to get "seasoned"?
Anyone else going to be there on Friday?
I was at SP today, talking to some of the folks there and apparently theres been talk in the past of re-paving as well, but never amounted to anything. I'm hoping this time it is for real. I will be there next weekend running with NASA. Looking forward to it!
I would imagine (just reaching / a guess) that newly paved tracks would actually have less grip since there was no rubber laid down (they always seem to talk about that on F1 commentary about how the support races can mess with that).
I sure hope this re-pave is actually just a sealer or something (for now)... you do NOT want to drive on a freshly paved track. A real re-pave needs time to cure (months)... otherwise, heavy and/or high-horsepower cars will literally rip up new asphalt under heave loads.
Spyshots of the repaving here:
http://www.dcsportbikes.net/forum/sh...ad.php?t=34036
Alot of complaining, but there is a experts opinion of Summits repaving on page 4.
http://www.dcsportbikes.net/forum/sh...ad.php?t=34036
Alot of complaining, but there is a experts opinion of Summits repaving on page 4.
Ran Buttonwillow before and after the repaving. It does take a few events for the track to settle-in so your previous setups don't work as well until three or four race (not lapping) weekends have been run.
The worst part is that at least 50% of your brake, turn-in, and exit markers are gone. You will have to re-orient yourself. Also, if they don't raise the curbing to match the new asphalt thickness you'll find that its much easier to hop the curbs. The esses at Buttonwillow became a straight until they raised the curbing a couple months after the repave. That really made Star Mazda interesting.
The worst part is that at least 50% of your brake, turn-in, and exit markers are gone. You will have to re-orient yourself. Also, if they don't raise the curbing to match the new asphalt thickness you'll find that its much easier to hop the curbs. The esses at Buttonwillow became a straight until they raised the curbing a couple months after the repave. That really made Star Mazda interesting.
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Originally Posted by Axelerate
Spyshots of the repaving here:
http://www.dcsportbikes.net/forum/sh...ad.php?t=34036
Alot of complaining, but there is a experts opinion of Summits repaving on page 4.
http://www.dcsportbikes.net/forum/sh...ad.php?t=34036
Alot of complaining, but there is a experts opinion of Summits repaving on page 4.
If y'all want an expert opinion on this... I asked my older bro. He's VP of a construction company that does bigger projects (major highways, airports, etc, down in GA and FL).
Quote:
So basically, what Summit is doing isn't bad. In fact, it's what most people would do.
Quote:
No, that’s normal practice. There’s no need to remove the existing asphalt unless it is failing miserably. And by miserably I mean heaving and movement which you guys would have been bitching about already if you had it. Paving over the concrete will cause reflective cracking unless they use a barrier of some sort and even then I’ve never seen it work. What you’ll get is 1 crack in the new asphalt on each side of the concrete bands where the old asphalt/concrete joint is. You’ll wind up with 4 parallel cracks running perpendicular to the track in the exact same location as the old concrete edges. You’ll probably never notice them because they’ll be minor unless you get some ground shifting.
It would have been beneficial to remove the concrete but not necessary really. Milling doesn’t do anything for you either. You see milling on city streets because they don’t want the safety issue of a lip at the curb and also to maintain existing grades for drainage.
It would have been beneficial to remove the concrete but not necessary really. Milling doesn’t do anything for you either. You see milling on city streets because they don’t want the safety issue of a lip at the curb and also to maintain existing grades for drainage.
Don't get me wrong... I hope I'm proved wrong here.
true, and I'm no expert, but the race track will see FAR less usage than a regular street. Plus the vehicle weight are less since it wont see regular traffic from 18 wheelers, dump trucks, buses, 350z's ect.
I was always under the impression that it's overloaded vehicles that kills roads, and the weather.
I was always under the impression that it's overloaded vehicles that kills roads, and the weather.
Anyway, the "expert" quoted said nothing about the need for curing the surface after it's been laid. He's only talking about whether you need to mill down or otherwise prepare the old surface first.
I'd like to see some cite for the need to let a road surface cure before any use. AFAIK, virtually all public roads are used immediately after the asphalt has been laid, with no curing. And, as Axelerate points out, they're used by much heavier vehicles than the Raceway is ever going to see.
What's the source for the claim that a race surface shouldn't be used immediately, and what is the supposed harm that will result? How long is this curing supposed to last?
I'd like to see some cite for the need to let a road surface cure before any use. AFAIK, virtually all public roads are used immediately after the asphalt has been laid, with no curing. And, as Axelerate points out, they're used by much heavier vehicles than the Raceway is ever going to see.
What's the source for the claim that a race surface shouldn't be used immediately, and what is the supposed harm that will result? How long is this curing supposed to last?
Here's a very interesting read I found with a quick Google:
INDIANAPOLIS, Wednesday, March 31, 2004 -- An interview with Kevin Forbes, Indianapolis Motor Speedway director of engineering and construction, about the repaving of the entire 2.5-mile IMS oval starting in August 2004:
http://www.motorsport.com/news/artic...227&FS=HISTORY
I think this quote from the interview speaks volumes:
INDIANAPOLIS, Wednesday, March 31, 2004 -- An interview with Kevin Forbes, Indianapolis Motor Speedway director of engineering and construction, about the repaving of the entire 2.5-mile IMS oval starting in August 2004:
http://www.motorsport.com/news/artic...227&FS=HISTORY
I think this quote from the interview speaks volumes:
Q: Are there any comparisons between highway and racetrack paving?
Forbes: It is not night and day. It is like the difference between assembling a grandfather clock and assembling a wristwatch. All of the processes are similar; they're just much more fine-tuned for a racetrack. They're more critical, and not to put down or understate the importance of highway paving, (but) they're dealing with a whole different set of loading criteria than a racetrack does. The difference is, when a highway asphalt surface fails, it almost never has a life-or-death consequence. When a racetrack pavement fails, it could mean the difference between life or death. There are just tighter controls. Everything is done a little slower.
Forbes: It is not night and day. It is like the difference between assembling a grandfather clock and assembling a wristwatch. All of the processes are similar; they're just much more fine-tuned for a racetrack. They're more critical, and not to put down or understate the importance of highway paving, (but) they're dealing with a whole different set of loading criteria than a racetrack does. The difference is, when a highway asphalt surface fails, it almost never has a life-or-death consequence. When a racetrack pavement fails, it could mean the difference between life or death. There are just tighter controls. Everything is done a little slower.
I'm not trying to be argumentative or anything, Stacy, but I don't see that quote as particularly damning of BSR's work this week. First, I suspect that highway crews work at much faster rates than two miles/two lanes in two or three days. So I suspect that they are taking things slow on SPR, as Mr. Forbes recommends.
Second, even if they weren't, there are several differences between SPR and Indianapolis. Indianapolis has four seriously banked turns, two straights about twice as long as SPR's one, and the fastest cars in the world that hit speeds almost twice as fast as all but the fastest cars on SPR. So, yes, they have to take more care at Indy than is needed at Summit Point.
Finally, with thousands of people participating in events on SPR nearly every weekend of the year (compared to, what four or five per year at Indy?), BSR would be certain to be sued for any bad decisions they make with respect to the track surface. Even if the waivers we sign at the entrance magically protected them from every lawsuit (and I doubt they would), a major fault in the surface, or accidents caused by bad paving, would damage their reputation and cost them a lot of business. They have every incentive not to be careless, and with three circuits, they also have more experience building and maintaining race tracks than anyone posting here.
Sorry, but before I jump on the bandwagon of criticizing them, I'd like some hard evidence that what they're doing is a bad idea, or even outside normal practice in building racetracks. I haven't seen any yet.
I'll be there on Friday trying out the new surface, and more worried about new lines and turn-in points than whether the surface was properly cured.
Second, even if they weren't, there are several differences between SPR and Indianapolis. Indianapolis has four seriously banked turns, two straights about twice as long as SPR's one, and the fastest cars in the world that hit speeds almost twice as fast as all but the fastest cars on SPR. So, yes, they have to take more care at Indy than is needed at Summit Point.
Finally, with thousands of people participating in events on SPR nearly every weekend of the year (compared to, what four or five per year at Indy?), BSR would be certain to be sued for any bad decisions they make with respect to the track surface. Even if the waivers we sign at the entrance magically protected them from every lawsuit (and I doubt they would), a major fault in the surface, or accidents caused by bad paving, would damage their reputation and cost them a lot of business. They have every incentive not to be careless, and with three circuits, they also have more experience building and maintaining race tracks than anyone posting here.
Sorry, but before I jump on the bandwagon of criticizing them, I'd like some hard evidence that what they're doing is a bad idea, or even outside normal practice in building racetracks. I haven't seen any yet.
I'll be there on Friday trying out the new surface, and more worried about new lines and turn-in points than whether the surface was properly cured.
Originally Posted by commasense
I'm not trying to be argumentative or anything, Stacy, but I don't see that quote as particularly damning of BSR's work this week. First, I suspect that highway crews work at much faster rates than two miles/two lanes in two or three days. So I suspect that they are taking things slow on SPR, as Mr. Forbes recommends.
Second, even if they weren't, there are several differences between SPR and Indianapolis. Indianapolis has four seriously banked turns, two straights about twice as long as SPR's one, and the fastest cars in the world that hit speeds almost twice as fast as all but the fastest cars on SPR. So, yes, they have to take more care at Indy than is needed at Summit Point.
Finally, with thousands of people participating in events on SPR nearly every weekend of the year (compared to, what four or five per year at Indy?), BSR would be certain to be sued for any bad decisions they make with respect to the track surface. Even if the waivers we sign at the entrance magically protected them from every lawsuit (and I doubt they would), a major fault in the surface, or accidents caused by bad paving, would damage their reputation and cost them a lot of business. They have every incentive not to be careless, and with three circuits, they also have more experience building and maintaining race tracks than anyone posting here.
Sorry, but before I jump on the bandwagon of criticizing them, I'd like some hard evidence that what they're doing is a bad idea, or even outside normal practice in building racetracks. I haven't seen any yet.
I'll be there on Friday trying out the new surface, and more worried about new lines and turn-in points than whether the surface was properly cured.
Second, even if they weren't, there are several differences between SPR and Indianapolis. Indianapolis has four seriously banked turns, two straights about twice as long as SPR's one, and the fastest cars in the world that hit speeds almost twice as fast as all but the fastest cars on SPR. So, yes, they have to take more care at Indy than is needed at Summit Point.
Finally, with thousands of people participating in events on SPR nearly every weekend of the year (compared to, what four or five per year at Indy?), BSR would be certain to be sued for any bad decisions they make with respect to the track surface. Even if the waivers we sign at the entrance magically protected them from every lawsuit (and I doubt they would), a major fault in the surface, or accidents caused by bad paving, would damage their reputation and cost them a lot of business. They have every incentive not to be careless, and with three circuits, they also have more experience building and maintaining race tracks than anyone posting here.
Sorry, but before I jump on the bandwagon of criticizing them, I'd like some hard evidence that what they're doing is a bad idea, or even outside normal practice in building racetracks. I haven't seen any yet.
I'll be there on Friday trying out the new surface, and more worried about new lines and turn-in points than whether the surface was properly cured.
Who knows (and we can only hope)... that maybe they are using a miracle mixture that doesn't require curing. But it is a documented fact (or at least a witnessed reality) that new asphalt can, and will "ripple" under the lateral loads placed on it in a racetrack environment... especially with high-hp, r-compound or race slick tires (which will be out in force at the NASA event.) Someone said when Mid-Ohio was repaved (last year?) they waited three weeks before they let cars back on it, and even then did not allow race slicks or R-compound tires.
Roebling Road and Road Atlanta both in their respective re-paves last year waited at least two weeks before running more events. IIRC Road Atlanta even canceled a previously scheduled event because it was too soon (after project delays). I don't know about the more recent new tracks, but I'd imagine it was something very similar.
Pretty sure Roebling keep eveyone off the track for a month, I do know they drug large tires down it all most every day for a month as well.
Roebling's crew did a ten times better job than the crew for Road Atlanta, RA recetly just went back a graded some of the bad spots from the crap job.
But after driving on two freshly paved tracks in the past year their is a big difference in the material and process between them.
imho you won't know till it's driven on how quality of job was done, but seems way to soon.
Roebling's crew did a ten times better job than the crew for Road Atlanta, RA recetly just went back a graded some of the bad spots from the crap job.
But after driving on two freshly paved tracks in the past year their is a big difference in the material and process between them.
imho you won't know till it's driven on how quality of job was done, but seems way to soon.
Here are what some people at another forum I frequent had to say. (It's not a racing board, but is filled with a wide range of pretty smart people who know a lot about a lot of things.)
Now, I know some of you are going to jump on those last couple of sentences and say, See! He says race tracks need to be cured! But no, he's saying IF race tracks need curing, here's a WAG as to why. But his only reason for thinking that is that I said you guys and the others at the motorcycle forum were saying so.
And I can't see how even the heaviest sports cars (what, maybe 4,000 pounds?) going at world record speeds could impart forces (lateral or otherwise) greater than 20-ton tractor trailers. Or friggin' jumbo jets, fer Chrissakes!
If anyone can find someone who makes as good a case for curing racetracks as these guys are making against it, I'll be happy to reconsider my position. Till then, I say that the idea that repaved tracks need to be cured before their first use is an urban legend.
Not a road construction engineer. But a teller of anecdotes.
When the main runway at the airport in Lexington, KY was resurfaced just over a year ago, they closed the airport for 48 hours, put hot asphalt from 4 different plants on the runway in various locations, planned an elaborate ballet of road construction vehicles, and prayed it didn't rain. (announcement from the airport prior to the resurfacing)
Airplanes--which are a lot heavier than cars-- and which travel pretty damn fast-- were allowed to start landing on the runway 48 hours after they closed the runway. It seems to me that the 48 hour mark was intended to permit some time for curing, as well as just some leeway incase something took longer than anticipated.
When the main runway at the airport in Lexington, KY was resurfaced just over a year ago, they closed the airport for 48 hours, put hot asphalt from 4 different plants on the runway in various locations, planned an elaborate ballet of road construction vehicles, and prayed it didn't rain. (announcement from the airport prior to the resurfacing)
Airplanes--which are a lot heavier than cars-- and which travel pretty damn fast-- were allowed to start landing on the runway 48 hours after they closed the runway. It seems to me that the 48 hour mark was intended to permit some time for curing, as well as just some leeway incase something took longer than anticipated.
I don't know all the specifics, but I did work for a paving company when I was younger. Asphalt is basically aggregate (gravel and sand) and tar. I believe it may have a small amount of cement and some solvents in it also. For the most part, asphalt doesn't 'cure', as much as it cools. When it comes from the plant, it looks basically like (steaming) hot, oily gravel. I believe it is something like 275 degrees F. As it cools it becomes stickier. It is spread out flat and compressed with a roller. Once it is cool, it is basically done. We regularly drove over it the same day.
I have never heard of curing as applied to bituminous pavement. Concrete pavement should not have traffic loads for a while. With a driveway entrance I designed for a Post Office we checked with a testing firm and allowed vehicles back on within 4 days, but that was pushing it. Usually you try to wait at least a week. Concrete will continue to harden for a long time (years?), but for all practical purposes, a month will get you to 98% of absolute hardness.
But, back to blacktop – Blacktop sets up differently than concrete. As [the poster above] indicated, it cools and then sets up. Before it cools it is important to have it compacted by steel drum and rubber tired rollers. (What are still referred to by some as “steam rollers.”) The amount of compaction is defined and measured but once the material cools, it can’t be decently compacted any more. (If you let the bituminous cool without compacting I would imagine it would just crumble if driven on.) Over time I suppose that blacktop might compress a bit more, but not substantially. Also over time it will lose a bit of surface oil due to weathering and not be as black, but again, for the most part this is not substantial. After 10, 20 or 30 years the weathering will take its toll, but I think that is beyond what you are talking about.
For roadways I’ve been project manager on we let traffic get on as soon as it is striped with pavement markings. (First striping never lasts long but that is probably due to the effect of fresh oil.) For smaller patches, this can be the same day after it has cooled down
But, back to blacktop – Blacktop sets up differently than concrete. As [the poster above] indicated, it cools and then sets up. Before it cools it is important to have it compacted by steel drum and rubber tired rollers. (What are still referred to by some as “steam rollers.”) The amount of compaction is defined and measured but once the material cools, it can’t be decently compacted any more. (If you let the bituminous cool without compacting I would imagine it would just crumble if driven on.) Over time I suppose that blacktop might compress a bit more, but not substantially. Also over time it will lose a bit of surface oil due to weathering and not be as black, but again, for the most part this is not substantial. After 10, 20 or 30 years the weathering will take its toll, but I think that is beyond what you are talking about.
For roadways I’ve been project manager on we let traffic get on as soon as it is striped with pavement markings. (First striping never lasts long but that is probably due to the effect of fresh oil.) For smaller patches, this can be the same day after it has cooled down
I am not a roadway expert (I think that [another poster] has more expertise with this), but I have been designing and specifying paved surfaces for over twenty years, and have been on more paving inspections than I can remember. A roadway paving expert may not be able to answer your question; it may be more geared toward a racing expert.
In the Northeast, paving is traditionally done with bituminous concrete pavement, now renamed "hot mix asphalt" or HMA (presumably renamed so that all the manuals can all be reprinted at taxpayer expense to reimburse some pol's nephew). The mix is a specific gradation of aggregate (gravel or crushed stone) with a percentage of bitumen (typically 4-8%, depending on the particular application). Stone size is larger and bitumen percentage is less where more bearing strength is required. This is called the binder or base course, placed on a compacted gravel course. As you might expect, this will leave a coarse looking surface that is also hell on tires. So this structural layer is then topped with a mix that has smaller stones and more bitumen (the top or wearing course). While this does certainly have some bearing strength, it is primarily to provide an acceptable driving surface.
As stated above, the mixes come heated from the batch plants, and are placed while still extremely hot. The bitumen coats the aggregate and causes it to adhere to itself and damn near everything else within 20 feet of the paving job. After placement, the pavement is rolled for as long as is practical, usually an hour or two. This is to make sure that the aggregate is compacted as much as possible, and to fill as many voids as possible. After rolling, cars can drive on the pavement. I've seen cars allowed on pavement in less than an hour when necessary, but most good pavers prefer to leave this for a longer time, if allowed.
The above was for a new paving project, but it isn't all that different for an "overlay" job. Sometimes a new top course is placed directly over the old top course if there is no concern as to the raised height of the roadway. Otherwise, the existing surface is cold-planed or milled down a certain amount (as danceswithcats referenced), and then repaved with new top course.
Over time, bitumen in pavement will slowly "dry out", losing some volatiles. Therefore, standard practice for overlays is to have a truck spray asphalt emulsion over the old surface to provide a "tack coat" prior to placing the overlay. The thought is that the old bituminous pavement will absorb some of the bitumen from the new pavement, thereby robbing it of some of its use in the new pavement. The jury may be out on this practice: I have heard experts argue that it is pointless and a waste of money. However, most engineers feel that it is better to be safe, especially if the existing pavement has some age to it.
It would be interesting to know if the pavement was completely removed and replaced, or whether it was an overlay. If completely replaced, the waiting period might be to discover if inadequate compaction left loose areas that would cause the pavement to deform or sag.
If an overlay, then I am stumped. In normal roadway or highway paving, no "curing" is required. However, it is unusual for them to see the intensity that racing courses see; hence my original reference to asking a racing expert. If this is standard practice in the race industry, I can only surmise that it is to let the bitumen dry out a bit to ensure that the pavement will not deform under intense racing.
In the Northeast, paving is traditionally done with bituminous concrete pavement, now renamed "hot mix asphalt" or HMA (presumably renamed so that all the manuals can all be reprinted at taxpayer expense to reimburse some pol's nephew). The mix is a specific gradation of aggregate (gravel or crushed stone) with a percentage of bitumen (typically 4-8%, depending on the particular application). Stone size is larger and bitumen percentage is less where more bearing strength is required. This is called the binder or base course, placed on a compacted gravel course. As you might expect, this will leave a coarse looking surface that is also hell on tires. So this structural layer is then topped with a mix that has smaller stones and more bitumen (the top or wearing course). While this does certainly have some bearing strength, it is primarily to provide an acceptable driving surface.
As stated above, the mixes come heated from the batch plants, and are placed while still extremely hot. The bitumen coats the aggregate and causes it to adhere to itself and damn near everything else within 20 feet of the paving job. After placement, the pavement is rolled for as long as is practical, usually an hour or two. This is to make sure that the aggregate is compacted as much as possible, and to fill as many voids as possible. After rolling, cars can drive on the pavement. I've seen cars allowed on pavement in less than an hour when necessary, but most good pavers prefer to leave this for a longer time, if allowed.
The above was for a new paving project, but it isn't all that different for an "overlay" job. Sometimes a new top course is placed directly over the old top course if there is no concern as to the raised height of the roadway. Otherwise, the existing surface is cold-planed or milled down a certain amount (as danceswithcats referenced), and then repaved with new top course.
Over time, bitumen in pavement will slowly "dry out", losing some volatiles. Therefore, standard practice for overlays is to have a truck spray asphalt emulsion over the old surface to provide a "tack coat" prior to placing the overlay. The thought is that the old bituminous pavement will absorb some of the bitumen from the new pavement, thereby robbing it of some of its use in the new pavement. The jury may be out on this practice: I have heard experts argue that it is pointless and a waste of money. However, most engineers feel that it is better to be safe, especially if the existing pavement has some age to it.
It would be interesting to know if the pavement was completely removed and replaced, or whether it was an overlay. If completely replaced, the waiting period might be to discover if inadequate compaction left loose areas that would cause the pavement to deform or sag.
If an overlay, then I am stumped. In normal roadway or highway paving, no "curing" is required. However, it is unusual for them to see the intensity that racing courses see; hence my original reference to asking a racing expert. If this is standard practice in the race industry, I can only surmise that it is to let the bitumen dry out a bit to ensure that the pavement will not deform under intense racing.
And I can't see how even the heaviest sports cars (what, maybe 4,000 pounds?) going at world record speeds could impart forces (lateral or otherwise) greater than 20-ton tractor trailers. Or friggin' jumbo jets, fer Chrissakes!
If anyone can find someone who makes as good a case for curing racetracks as these guys are making against it, I'll be happy to reconsider my position. Till then, I say that the idea that repaved tracks need to be cured before their first use is an urban legend.


