PDX_Racer

iTrader: (2)

Only barely! Not to mention my mis-shift on the first day on my only clean run. I had a serious case of cranial-rectal inversion on Thursday! (not to take anything away from ULLLOSE -- he drove VERY well on BOTH days!)

The Z has plow at turn in? Oh that's right, I don't OVERDRIVE the car on corner entry or mid-corner, and because of that I don't HAVE a lot of understeer. I learned that lesson from driving FWD cars.

While I haven't spent a lot of $$$ on upgrades to my Z, I have spent time and money on ESSENTIAL things -- the things that really improve how the Z handles -- and especially on making the driver better. The only reasons that I switched from SA Konis this year to the DA Konis from Carter's car was because I could get a good deal on them, and because I knew that I could use the additional adjustments to "fine-tune" the car a bit more (rather than sending my SA Konis in to have them rebuilt -- possibly incorrectly).

Here's my conclusions after almost three years in the Z:

1. The Z is much more competitive in B Stock than I've been able to demonstrate. Much of that lack of performance is this driver.
2. The Z is light in the rear. Removing weight from anywhere behind the engine is the wrong thing to do!
3. 245s and 285s have to be driven differently (nationals was only my fourth event on the 285s).
4. I need more "seat time" on the 285s on more surfaces. I also need to have at least one more set of them mounted up and ready to go (which ain't cheap!).
5. I need more experience at big events.
6. I need to have more fun with this hobby/sport.
7. And finally, I need to keep my big trap shut when "bench racing."

mw9

iTrader: (51)

So what classes can the Z run in, I know BSP. What else. Maybe B stock and SM2

Z1NONLY

iTrader: (2)

One car did take the top 9 spots.

And while my seat time / skill level is not yet up to national-title level (I'm just completing my second year), I think many of the veterans here are to quick to dismiss my assertions without any idea of where my skills/ experience fall in the spectrum.

I have raced against an STU car all year with another driver of virtually identical skill level. My Z and his STI are comparable in performance period.

I have driven the STI flat out, on course, a lot. I have good reason to say the cars are comparable. I have proven it.

I have also driven the RX-8 flat out as well.

The bottom line is that no one has provided any evidence, or data, to back up the Z-juggernaut assertion.

PedalFaster

My statement at least has nothing to do with how good a driver you are, but rather the fact that you are spouting statements that are obviously false, which in turn hurts your credibility across the board.

Addressing your two statements in your previous post:

People have provided data showing the 350Z is competitive in B Stock -- you've just ignored it. The fact that Carter missed the jacket by 0.100 in 2006 is evidence enough for everyone but you -- the fact that he took two Pro wins that year and threatened for the Pro Finale win was icing on the cake. Carter actually did rather worse at both Nationals and the Pro Finale this year in an RX-8 than he did last year in the 350Z.

Other than Carter... well, as Jason said, no one with Carter's track record has campaigned the car since. Car comparisons only make sense when the drivers are comparable as well; this year the three fastest and best "pedigreed" drivers were all in RX-8s, so it was almost a foregone conclusion going in that the event would be won by an RX-8. All the the 350Z drivers this year except for Lee are still "up and comers" who couldn't realistically be expected to compete for top spots at Nationals.

As for your assertion that cars should be treated the same in prepared classes as they are in Stock -- that's easily disproven. Take the Honda S2000 and the Subaru STi, both of which are A Stock cars. The Honda is one of the AS class leaders (one won Nationals this year), due in part to the fact that it has a heavily worked normally aspirated engine and good suspension geometry from the factory. As a result, there are no huge gains to be had from modifying one to Street Prepared trim, and it's been shown to be a second class citizen in BSP.

The STi, on the other hand, has a turbocharged engine, soft, tall springs, and compromised suspension geometry from the factory, but it does ok in AS despite that. The suspension can be fixed in BSP, and the turbo can be goosed to make huge power, and as a result the STi is a major BSP overdog. Although the STi and the S2000 are classed the same in Stock, they respond totally differently to modifications, which means that they shouldn't necessarily be classified the same in classes other than Stock.

The 350Z, like the Subarus, has a multiple Achilles heels in Stock form -- minimal, nonadjustable front camber and a tendency towards wheelspin which forces some funny suspension and weight removal decisions. Both of these problems can be fixed in ST trim, and thus the Stock 350Z data that exists currently is to a large degree invalid when trying to predict the car's performance in ST trim. Further hurting the 350Z's chances is the fact that STU is a very healthy class today; as a result, the STAC and SEB will likely be very conservative about any changes to the class, 350Z or otherwise.

My rule of thumb is that if someone doesn't understand and can't summarize both sides of an argument, they aren't really qualified to participate in it. So yes, you're right -- it is an anti-350Z conspiracy. In fact, it's an anti-you conspiracy: my secret sources told me that they were about to put the 350Z into STU until they found out that you drove one. Rough!

larson

iTrader: (1)

What about F Stock as the G35? Mustang GT 3356 lbs 300 HP 320 ft lbs of torque. 350Z 3404 lbs 306 HP 268 ft lbs of torque. Certainly seems a better fit than B stock.

first350

iTrader: (24)

I think the Z fits well into B stock...seeing PDX_Racer's times at this years nationals (as well as at the NWR National tour), the Z has the potential to lay down top times - IF there were as many Z's driven by top notch drivers as the RX-8, IMO it'd be a toss up who'd win.

DriveI65

Street Tire class will not get you any better competition than B Stock. It wouldn't be cheaper since suspension upgrades and a set of competition tires are needed .

I was one of the also rans this year at Nationals. Actually worse than last year much to my dismay. I have a whole new appreciation for the committment needed. I talked with many of the guys who finished near or at the top. While I went out and got the latest Z, they were working on their skills. Sure the car helps but it's really the nut behind the wheel.

They are fast and I suspect you could drop the top ten in most any car and be hard pressed to get close. Video and data aquisition are tools they use to sharpen their speed sense and review performance. Oh, did I say they were pretty confident they were good??

My son and I came away from Nationals with a new outlook. The car is much better than we drove it. We need to work on ourselves and go to other regions that have stiff B Stock competition. We got complacent this year in our area since Sparks went to CSP for a break and Carter isn't running many events other than Nationals. Might be trips to Texas and Arkansas in 2008.

We will be back at Topeka next year.

Z1NONLY

iTrader: (2)

The Z is too fast for F stock. Just compare the B-stock Z times to the Mustang GT times. In this case there is a lot of data showing this would be unfair to just about every other F-stock car. (I still think the G35 has a competitive advantage over the Mustang GT, but it has to go somewhere)

I understand the similarities that you point out are true, but cars should be classed by their capabilities rather than simple power to weight ratios.

Z1NONLY

iTrader: (2)

This proves a point I was never disputing. It was ULLOSE that suggested the Z would be too fast for STU when he said "..no way they are going to rock the boat by putting the Z in there." I was challenging the assertion that the Z will have some unfair advantage in STU. Thus far the carter example is the only response I have got.

I don't think that one driver in one Z getting close during one season is grounds to extrapolate that the Z is a sleeping giant that will run rough-shot over all existing STU cars if allowed in. (The fact that he didn't do as well in an RX-8 yet, could have more to do with the difficulty in matching one's driving style to a given car.)



what I said was;


This would be the "evidence to the contrary" I was speaking of above. I fully understand that different cars respond differently to modifications. (even without the extra seat time you say I need to grasp such a concept) And this is actually a good case for letting the S2K into STU. (which I have said, from the beginning would only be fair, since I want the other feeder class, B-Stock, given access to STU.

If the assertion that the Z will run over the other STU competitors (once it was modified) were true, wouldn't we see some evidence in the other modified classes like BSP? The STI's and EVO's don't seem to be getting run over by modified Z's there.

Well we have to use some data. I have a season running my Z in STU RWD trim against an STI in STU, with a driver of virtually identical skill level. I have two major events where my brother and I competed head to head in identically prepped cars (Rev it up; .1 sec gap) or the same exact car. (Subaru challenge; .2 sec gap)

This proves that my brother and I are about as comparable as two drivers get. (I can provide links to prove it, if you are unhappy with my credibility)

So far, I am the only one in this debate that has tried running an STU prepped Z against an STU car with comparable drivers regularly. The results show parity between the two cars. My brother and I both agree that it's a driver's race between the two cars in this trim. Isn't that the point of classing cars to begin with?

I understand the argument that the Z will respond better to ST mods and run over the other STU cars. I just disagree with it and would still like to see some evidence to back it up. (The Carter example proves only competitiveness not unfair advantage-ness -new word)

Again, has anyone else here actually tried this other than my brother and me?

ULLOSE has pointed out that people already in the class will not want to "rock the boat." The fear of change is not a conspiracy, it's human nature. That doesn't mean it's always right. I have never said there was an anti-Z conspiracy. And even after agitating heavy-hitters like yourself and ULLOSE, I doubt either one of you will do anything other than provide good advice if we ever cross paths. -Much less mount some conspiracy against me.

mhoward1

BTW,
My tire trailer is for sale if anyone wants to tote R-compounds.

JP350Z2004

My local club allowed the Z's in STU this year and it was a blast. Running the RX-8's toe to toe on street tires was great competition and we all pushed eachother to get faster.

As for having to run 245's that's stupid.

The STi is an AS car, why would they be afraid of us? Turbo cars respond much better to mods as well.

We deserve the right to run in STU with 275's like all the other RWD's.

I would be more than willing to run BSP in Toledo next year if someone has a telemetry unit available.(I'll probably be running BSP on street tires anyway).

We have several national champions in our club so I'll find a "fast" co-driver as well.

My set-up on a 2004 Enthusiast is:
Bridgestone RE01R's 245/45/17 all 4 corners, Eibach springs, cold-air intake, cat-back, stainless lines, carbotech pads, slotted rotors and rear camber/toe kit.

ULLLOSE

You can not compare the StiEvo and 350Z in BSP trim VS STU trim. In BSP the StiEvo gets unlimited boost and unlimited tire and wheels size. In STU the StiEvo gets no boost allowance and can only run a 245 tire. While the rally cars are at the top of STU they do take a big hit on allowances in ST VS SP rules. I don't know how to better communicate to you the way cars are classed and how the class progressions work.

So do you and your brother have 100% setup cars? He is on 245s and you are on 275s? You are both on shaved tires? You have both taken advantage of every ST allowance? If not your data is not of much value. Classes are based on the 100% setup car with top level drivers, anything less will make the results useless.

ULLLOSE

The 245 things was just something I tossed out there as a way to let them play without rocking the boat. Don't in anyway take that as a sign of things to come, the Z in STU is not even on the radar no matter what the tire size.

btw if the 245 thing is such a dumb idea why are you on them. It is to bad you have not fully set your car up to 2wd STU rules, another lost data point.

tmak26b

that would help a lot, that's why i said the comparison would be between a stock 350z to a stock rx-8.

all those mods you mentioned would make the z a much better car.

ULLLOSE

And do nothing for the RX-8, in stock trim it can get -2 and the LSD works.

Fluid1

iTrader: (19)

Yeah of course. I still don't see one that you don't have to drill anything. Did I miss something?

Fluid1

iTrader: (19)

The SCCA has in their possession, two well written letters form me.

Fluid1

iTrader: (19)

I believe that I very simply put that it was an additional negative for the Z running in SCCA. I'm sorry you can't wrap your mind around that.
I know for a fact that there are trailers for the S2000 that don't require drilling. That is my issue. But thanks for your 2 cents, I guess.

tmak26b

You don't have to overdrive the car to make it plow. With .7 degree of camber and a front heavy car, the car is bound to not turn. It's not BS, it's pure physics. You can compensate so much with the driver and shocks, but the second best compensation (behind driver) is a set of race tires to get rid of that deadly plow.

I do believe the Z can be a competitive autox BS car given the right situation. I have had good luck racing with a former national champ in a RX-8. I don't think the difference between the two car is as big as people make it to be. A little more aftermarket support and more drivers would definitely help. Unfortnately most Z owners are into pimping and drag racing, oh well.

I don't know much about the STU class. If it is a true street tire class that allows no mod, I can tell you the Z will be in trouble in a competitive environment.

Here is a little datalog comparsion between the two cars. http://www.pbase.com/sjmarcy/image/81180798

Bench racing is great if you can backup your claims

Fluid1

iTrader: (19)

STU is not simply a stock class with street tires.
Besides, exhaust and a tune does a hell of a lot more for a T4 than it does for a n/a 6