Brake upgrade
01-05-2008, 10:50 AM
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Brake upgrade
IF YOU PLAN ON SUGGESTING IMPROVING THE DRIVER DO NOT POST. IT IS NOT MY QUESTION, although it is my goal.
So here is the scoop...
The car: 06 Z, stance coils, kinetix front/rear camber arms, toyo RA-1 275 all around, bride seat, invidia exhaust, test pipes.
The Driver: Im young, on a tight budget, and i raced carts growing up. I am planning about 4 days this summer, at pocono, and lime rock.
I am fading my brakes at the track when i go. and i even got my calipers to squirt fluid out of the piston of brakes with 8k on them. And that is before the RA-1's, I need a cheap brake fix.
My planned solution is to take out the dust shields, Purchase lines, and the best fluid i can. and then install a kognition design brake duct kit. Then I plan to just run mid priced to cheap rotors, with race pads.
Do you guys think this will be a good solution? Before this i was thinking about 13 inch stoptechs with a rotor/pad upgrade for the rear. Now i am thinking this will be fine for me....I will learn to use the brakes sparingly. what do you all think...thank you in advance for your answers.
So here is the scoop...
The car: 06 Z, stance coils, kinetix front/rear camber arms, toyo RA-1 275 all around, bride seat, invidia exhaust, test pipes.
The Driver: Im young, on a tight budget, and i raced carts growing up. I am planning about 4 days this summer, at pocono, and lime rock.
I am fading my brakes at the track when i go. and i even got my calipers to squirt fluid out of the piston of brakes with 8k on them. And that is before the RA-1's, I need a cheap brake fix.
My planned solution is to take out the dust shields, Purchase lines, and the best fluid i can. and then install a kognition design brake duct kit. Then I plan to just run mid priced to cheap rotors, with race pads.
Do you guys think this will be a good solution? Before this i was thinking about 13 inch stoptechs with a rotor/pad upgrade for the rear. Now i am thinking this will be fine for me....I will learn to use the brakes sparingly. what do you all think...thank you in advance for your answers.
01-06-2008, 06:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Grip_corners
IF YOU PLAN ON SUGGESTING IMPROVING THE DRIVER DO NOT POST. IT IS NOT MY QUESTION, although it is my goal.
Lose the RA-1s for now (will not help your goal of improving the driving)
Upgrade your pads (do a search) and fluid (again, do a search)
The only reason I can think of that would make you squirt fluid out of the pistons is that you REALLY fried the brakes to the point of melting any gaskets in there that allowed the fluid to seep out. Think of the brakes NOT as brakes, but as heat sinks. Try to use them in as short a distance and time as possible to allow for maximum cooling time.
Yes, stick with stock/cheap rotors for now
01-06-2008, 06:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Grip_corners
My planned solution is to take out the dust shields, Purchase lines, and the best fluid i can. and then install a kognition design brake duct kit. Then I plan to just run mid priced to cheap rotors, with race pads.
01-06-2008, 08:05 AM
#5
I have a 06 with Brembos which has been tracked regularly since it was run in. I had terminal fade since the first track day and went down the improvement road of braided lines, RBF600 fluid, and several different pad compounds from Axxis ULTs, Hawk HP+s and eventually getting best results out of a PFC01/PFC97 combo.
All that happened was the brakes got better and better at generating heat so the braking improved for shorter and shorter periods until my calipers were black and my dust seals were crispy.
I then added some home made brake ducts which at least looked cool while my brakes continued fading.
At the end of the day the stock brembo setup is just not designed to get rid of the heat generated by hard tracking a heavy car.
When I first bought the car I thought the progressive brake upgrade would be sensible, but it hasn't been cost effective. I've used 5 different sets of expensive pads, ruined the stock calipers and rotors and I still don't have a great brake setup.
I have now resisted the urge to just try changing the rotors and have ordered a set of stop-techs. My advice is that if you see yourself doing a lot of tracking in the future, don't bother with the step by step improvements, just buy a BBK now. You will save money in the long run! Plus your stock brembos will still be in good condition if you ever want to put them back on the car or sell them.
All that happened was the brakes got better and better at generating heat so the braking improved for shorter and shorter periods until my calipers were black and my dust seals were crispy.
I then added some home made brake ducts which at least looked cool while my brakes continued fading.
At the end of the day the stock brembo setup is just not designed to get rid of the heat generated by hard tracking a heavy car.
When I first bought the car I thought the progressive brake upgrade would be sensible, but it hasn't been cost effective. I've used 5 different sets of expensive pads, ruined the stock calipers and rotors and I still don't have a great brake setup.
I have now resisted the urge to just try changing the rotors and have ordered a set of stop-techs. My advice is that if you see yourself doing a lot of tracking in the future, don't bother with the step by step improvements, just buy a BBK now. You will save money in the long run! Plus your stock brembos will still be in good condition if you ever want to put them back on the car or sell them.
Last edited by SteveA; 01-06-2008 at 08:07 AM.
01-06-2008, 08:21 AM
#6
Sorry, but the driver is responsible for the wear on the brakes, and is responsible for managing their use. If you're burning off the brakes, you're using them WAY too much!
As others have said, the non-Brembo brakes on the earlier Zs don't have enough mass to soak up lots of energy of dragging a car down from speed X to speed Y. The best options is to reduce the top speed that the brakes are having to soak up or increase the slower speed.
Another thing is to make sure that you aren't dragging the brakes *anywhere* -- especially coming into the braking zone. If you are, you're simply building heat without actually doing anything.
As others have said, the non-Brembo brakes on the earlier Zs don't have enough mass to soak up lots of energy of dragging a car down from speed X to speed Y. The best options is to reduce the top speed that the brakes are having to soak up or increase the slower speed.
Another thing is to make sure that you aren't dragging the brakes *anywhere* -- especially coming into the braking zone. If you are, you're simply building heat without actually doing anything.
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01-06-2008, 09:15 AM
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Corners,
You name says it all. A N/A Z is just a bit short on HP at the track. I really like the car's balance, but you really do need to carry your speed through corners with this car. They are great brakes, but I use them as little as possible. That being said, as your speed comes up, your brakes will do more work and at higher temps.
Steve is absolutely right, if you are going to track the car and simulate race conditions, get brakes that are made for that. Buy cheap rotors and use race (high temp) pads and you will see your return on your investment all in one hard corner. I saw a guy do the same thing at Calif. Speedway on the Grand Am (Roval) course. Not pretty and cost him more to fix than do it right the first time. Rotors cracked and then shattered, pads descintigrated and car hit the wall...all for about $1,500 more in parts he should have spent.
I have stopteck 14" BBK all the way around with DTC70's in the front and BHP's in the rear. I can outstop just about anything on the track so I can carry more speed if I need to. Get a quality slotted rotor, high temp fluid and Stainless steel lines.
That being said, the PDX Racer is right in that brake management is driver responsibility. You need to adjust your turn in points and modulate your braking to accomodate the cars capabilities. I saw a guy in a stock, 258,000 mile 328i with a beautiful line keep up with a guy in a decked out Z just by using a very slow and precise line and carefully used braking points. Now you might say the guy in the Z was a bad driver, but he wasn't. In fact, he was way above average. I know you said "don't say improve the driver", but when asked how an amatuer racer could get faster, Tommy Kendall said it best it his repsonse..."Start with an underpowered car where you don't have to brake as much and you learn to carry speed. Once you can do that, just move those same principles to a faster car and adjust your braking zone, not your braking pressure."
I come from a karting background too, so I know where you are coming from. But you have to remember, cars are much heavier and their dynamics and parts are not like karts. In karts you can throw it around and slide a bunch. In car's that is SLOWING YOU DOWN and wearing out your equipment. Remember slow and fast out as you make up time on the gas, not the brakes. Jackie Stewart once responded to the question "how are you so fast on road courses?" He simply said, "I never hit the gas in the corner until I know I will not have to lift to make it out under full power and I turn in 1/2 as slow and twice as smooth as most think they should. It results in less brake and tire wear while and it keeps the car loaded propertly. By doing that alone, it slows everything down for me and I drive with less anxiety. With less anxiety, I can then let the track come to me instead of trying to attack the track; which I have found NEVER works."
What I am trying to illustrate is that sometimes it's the indian, not the arrow.
You name says it all. A N/A Z is just a bit short on HP at the track. I really like the car's balance, but you really do need to carry your speed through corners with this car. They are great brakes, but I use them as little as possible. That being said, as your speed comes up, your brakes will do more work and at higher temps.
Steve is absolutely right, if you are going to track the car and simulate race conditions, get brakes that are made for that. Buy cheap rotors and use race (high temp) pads and you will see your return on your investment all in one hard corner. I saw a guy do the same thing at Calif. Speedway on the Grand Am (Roval) course. Not pretty and cost him more to fix than do it right the first time. Rotors cracked and then shattered, pads descintigrated and car hit the wall...all for about $1,500 more in parts he should have spent.
I have stopteck 14" BBK all the way around with DTC70's in the front and BHP's in the rear. I can outstop just about anything on the track so I can carry more speed if I need to. Get a quality slotted rotor, high temp fluid and Stainless steel lines.
That being said, the PDX Racer is right in that brake management is driver responsibility. You need to adjust your turn in points and modulate your braking to accomodate the cars capabilities. I saw a guy in a stock, 258,000 mile 328i with a beautiful line keep up with a guy in a decked out Z just by using a very slow and precise line and carefully used braking points. Now you might say the guy in the Z was a bad driver, but he wasn't. In fact, he was way above average. I know you said "don't say improve the driver", but when asked how an amatuer racer could get faster, Tommy Kendall said it best it his repsonse..."Start with an underpowered car where you don't have to brake as much and you learn to carry speed. Once you can do that, just move those same principles to a faster car and adjust your braking zone, not your braking pressure."
I come from a karting background too, so I know where you are coming from. But you have to remember, cars are much heavier and their dynamics and parts are not like karts. In karts you can throw it around and slide a bunch. In car's that is SLOWING YOU DOWN and wearing out your equipment. Remember slow and fast out as you make up time on the gas, not the brakes. Jackie Stewart once responded to the question "how are you so fast on road courses?" He simply said, "I never hit the gas in the corner until I know I will not have to lift to make it out under full power and I turn in 1/2 as slow and twice as smooth as most think they should. It results in less brake and tire wear while and it keeps the car loaded propertly. By doing that alone, it slows everything down for me and I drive with less anxiety. With less anxiety, I can then let the track come to me instead of trying to attack the track; which I have found NEVER works."
What I am trying to illustrate is that sometimes it's the indian, not the arrow.
Last edited by Fooshe; 01-06-2008 at 09:47 AM.
01-06-2008, 09:18 AM
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Brakes
Upgrade the pads, better fluid, SS lines and get some slotted/vented rotors. More aggressive pads means less time on the brakes versus stock. No need to spend too much on rotors, just good quality slotted rotors. Don't get cross drilled rotors either. Many good pads out there..
01-06-2008, 09:56 AM
#11
Originally Posted by Fooshe
Corners,
You name says it all. A N/A Z is just a bit short on HP at the track. I really like the car's balance, but you really do need to carry your speed through corners with this car. They are great brakes, but I use them as little as possible. That being said, as your speed comes up, your brakes will do more work and at higher temps.
Steve is absolutely right, if you are going to track the car and simulate race conditions, get brakes that are made for that. Buy cheap rotors and use race (high temp) pads and you will see your return on your investment all in one hard corner. I saw a guy do the same thing at Calif. Speedway on the Grand Am (Roval) course. Not pretty and cost him more to fix than do it right the first time. Rotors cracked and then shattered, pads descintigrated and car hit the wall...all for about $1,500 more in parts he should have spent.
I have stopteck 14" BBK all the way around with DTC70's in the front and BHP's in the rear. I can outstop just about anything on the track so I can carry more speed if I need to. Get a quality slotted rotor, high temp fluid and Stainless steel lines.
That being said, the PDX Racer is right in that brake management is driver responsibility. You need to adjust your turn in points and modulate your braking to accomodate the cars capabilities. I saw a guy in a stock, 258,000 mile 328i with a beautiful line keep up with a guy in a decked out Z just by using a very slow and precise line and carefully used braking points. Now you might say the guy in the Z was a bad driver, but he wasn't. In fact, he was way above average. I know you said "don't say improve the driver", but when asked how an amatuer racer could get faster, Tommy Kendall said it best it his repsonse..."Start with an underpowered car where you don't have to brake as much and you learn to carry speed. Once you can do that, just move those same principles to a faster car and adjust your braking zone, not your braking pressure."
I come from a karting background too, so I know where you are coming from. But you have to remember, cars are much heavier and their dynamics and parts are not like karts. In karts you can throw it around and slide a bunch. In car's that is SLOWING YOU DOWN and wearing out your equipment. Remember slow and fast out as you make up time on the gas, not the brakes. Jackie Stewart once responded to the question "how are you so fast on road courses?" He simply said, "I never hit the gas in the corner until I know I will not have to lift to make it out under full power and I turn in 1/2 as slow and twice as smooth as most think they should. It results in less brake and tire wear while and it keeps the car loaded propertly. By doing that alone, it slows everything down for me and I drive with less anxiety. With less anxiety, I can then let the track come to me instead of trying to attack the track; which I have found NEVER works."
What I am trying to illustrate is that sometimes it's the indian, not the arrow.
You name says it all. A N/A Z is just a bit short on HP at the track. I really like the car's balance, but you really do need to carry your speed through corners with this car. They are great brakes, but I use them as little as possible. That being said, as your speed comes up, your brakes will do more work and at higher temps.
Steve is absolutely right, if you are going to track the car and simulate race conditions, get brakes that are made for that. Buy cheap rotors and use race (high temp) pads and you will see your return on your investment all in one hard corner. I saw a guy do the same thing at Calif. Speedway on the Grand Am (Roval) course. Not pretty and cost him more to fix than do it right the first time. Rotors cracked and then shattered, pads descintigrated and car hit the wall...all for about $1,500 more in parts he should have spent.
I have stopteck 14" BBK all the way around with DTC70's in the front and BHP's in the rear. I can outstop just about anything on the track so I can carry more speed if I need to. Get a quality slotted rotor, high temp fluid and Stainless steel lines.
That being said, the PDX Racer is right in that brake management is driver responsibility. You need to adjust your turn in points and modulate your braking to accomodate the cars capabilities. I saw a guy in a stock, 258,000 mile 328i with a beautiful line keep up with a guy in a decked out Z just by using a very slow and precise line and carefully used braking points. Now you might say the guy in the Z was a bad driver, but he wasn't. In fact, he was way above average. I know you said "don't say improve the driver", but when asked how an amatuer racer could get faster, Tommy Kendall said it best it his repsonse..."Start with an underpowered car where you don't have to brake as much and you learn to carry speed. Once you can do that, just move those same principles to a faster car and adjust your braking zone, not your braking pressure."
I come from a karting background too, so I know where you are coming from. But you have to remember, cars are much heavier and their dynamics and parts are not like karts. In karts you can throw it around and slide a bunch. In car's that is SLOWING YOU DOWN and wearing out your equipment. Remember slow and fast out as you make up time on the gas, not the brakes. Jackie Stewart once responded to the question "how are you so fast on road courses?" He simply said, "I never hit the gas in the corner until I know I will not have to lift to make it out under full power and I turn in 1/2 as slow and twice as smooth as most think they should. It results in less brake and tire wear while and it keeps the car loaded propertly. By doing that alone, it slows everything down for me and I drive with less anxiety. With less anxiety, I can then let the track come to me instead of trying to attack the track; which I have found NEVER works."
What I am trying to illustrate is that sometimes it's the indian, not the arrow.
01-06-2008, 02:43 PM
#12
Originally Posted by jmark
The Brembos are used by the T2 racers here. They don't have a problem with them.
Not familiar with the category, but more likely they are restrained by rules to a lack of choice to go bigger which I am betting they would if they could.
01-06-2008, 02:58 PM
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maybe i will wait to afford the brakes, I wanted to do 13 though, so i can run 17's. but i dont have the $ do to them now, and i want race this summer.
01-06-2008, 03:13 PM
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ive got brembos and i have done the stoptech 2pc upfront and brembo in rear i wanted slotted but i got drilled. I bought it all really really cheap from a member on here and i havent had any problems yet i had them up to 620deg on the rotor and 588 deg on the caliper and had no fade. Im using axxis ult pads and rbf600 fluid. my $.2
01-06-2008, 04:09 PM
#15
Originally Posted by Grip_corners
... i dont have the $ do to them now, and i want race this summer.
Corners, nothing is stopping you from racing this summer, you just have to accept the limitations of what you can afford and drive accordingly as others have said here. If all you can afford is pads and fluid, do that and go to it. The track time is still valuable even if you aren't as competitive as you might be with better equipment.
I have still had a ball tracking my car even with it's brake limitations... it's a well balanced, fun, reasonably quick car to drive.
I just can't outbrake the Porsche GT3's like I want to.
01-06-2008, 04:16 PM
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I just get compeditive. even my first day i had no problem running in A run group. Im 19 now, and becouse i am young, and have alot of older drivers lending there help to me I want to go fast. I get off on lapping the 996 turbos, and C5 zo6's. My car does corner ecceptionaly well. I have spent COUNTLESS hours with scales and parking lots and data loggers.
The car has every arm and bar accept the front lower control arms replaced. I run 2.5 degrees of camber and my own toe settings. The car is corner ballence to near perfection with me and a half tank. And with me in it it weigs 3212. Its on 275's and it grips. I even think it stops well. just not after 3 hot laps. I try to carry too much speed with me all the time, then i just ballece the ever so slight slide with some countersteering.
I hear you. I will do fluid for now. And i guess i will save for the brakes. Is it worth running a 13 inch brake, to run 17's
The car has every arm and bar accept the front lower control arms replaced. I run 2.5 degrees of camber and my own toe settings. The car is corner ballence to near perfection with me and a half tank. And with me in it it weigs 3212. Its on 275's and it grips. I even think it stops well. just not after 3 hot laps. I try to carry too much speed with me all the time, then i just ballece the ever so slight slide with some countersteering.
I hear you. I will do fluid for now. And i guess i will save for the brakes. Is it worth running a 13 inch brake, to run 17's
01-06-2008, 04:19 PM
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I might have made myself sound too good. Im not great. Im my own opinion and several instructors. I have the car control of a pro. but i just constantly am too agressive, and wind up working too hard and blowing my line. my line is good, but its nothing to get 1st in a time attack.
01-06-2008, 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Grip_corners
I hear you. I will do fluid for now. And i guess i will save for the brakes. Is it worth running a 13 inch brake, to run 17's
