GaryM05

I don't have my point sheet in front of me, but last year my TTC-winning car in NASA Rocky Mountain (there wasn't a whole lot of consistent competition that ran the whole season) was very close to the top of the allowable point mods to stay in TTC, and had the following:

- 17" Nitto NT-01's

- 350Evo sway bars

- Eibach Pro-Kit

- Koni Yellows

- SPL Parts control arms

- JWT clutch/flywheel

- Stoptech fronts & Brembo rears with a combo of Cobalt Friction and PFC race pads

- Factory LSD

The biggest thing for me last year was learning how to run the tires effectively (take a slow lap or two in the middle of each session to let them cool down a bit and regain some grip), and figuring out which sessions to target for a hot lap (I found that I usually put down my fastest lap of the day in the second session, so that's when I would really try to space out from traffic and put down some fliers).

TT is a lot of fun, and adds an extra element of strategy and competition to the typical NASA track day. I was surprised by how much more enjoyable it made a NASA weekend!

betamotorsports

iTrader: (1)

I ran the old Open Track Challenge for all 3 years and won the Unlimited 3 class two years in a row and placed in the overall top 10 two years in a row.

Competing in a time trial correctly takes a lot of planning at each event. Generally your fastest laps are in the first or second sessions of the day (before lunch), depending on the weather. Within a session your fastest laps will be 3 through 5 after coming out on the track. Staying out and running more then 6 laps in a session is a waste of tires, IMHO.

So, now you're down to two sessions and 5 laps in each session to throw down your fastest lap. 10 laps total to work with. Within those 10 laps you have to find a clear track and not encounter ANY traffic, flags, debris, etc.

Do you line up first in grid for the session? - That means you need to have your crap together and get to grid 20 minutes before the sesison starts. And you must be fast from the start, but not too fast to catch the cars going out on track a bit late.

Do you line up last in grid for the session? - You'll be behind everyone (including all the slow folks) but if there's enough of a gap you can get a fast lap in before catching the slower drivers.

Do you go out late in the session when other cars have come back into the pits? - Sometimes works but you're screwed if a yellow, black, or red flag is thrown. There might also be more debris on track.

Do you go out mid sesison in a gap? Risky because gaps are never as big as they look to the grid guys when they waive you out on track.

GaryM05

Lots of great points in John's post, providing a detailed picture of the extra factors that come into play at a TT event.

Something else that can help is to talk to your fellow competitors and others running in your session. NASA grids TT competitors by their previous session's time, so it can pay to look at the time sheet to find out who is starting in front of you and behind you. Usually, you can come up with a group strategy to make sure that all of you get at least 5 good laps at the start of a session, by agreeing to spread out during the outlap, and coming up with a common point on the track to 'get on it' while coming around to start the first flyer.

Few things are more frustrating than going a whole session without getting into a rhythm (usually caused by problems with traffic), and the earlier in the session you can get into a rhythm and not have to worry so much about traffic, the better.

Of course there will always be the competitor who likes to play mind games to try to throw you off-balance, and won't agree to any mutually-beneficial strategy that you propose, but I've found that these are rare (at least in NASA-RM), and usually wind up doing more damage to their own chances than to others'.

l30thelion

iTrader: (3)

I currently run in NASA HPDE 3 and am hoping to move up to TTC in the next few months (by completing a Competition School). I'm thinking of running R888s (275 all 4 corners) on 17's and was wondering what wheels you guys would recommend.

It looks like some folks on the board are running 5zigens at 17x10 sizes, which I would love, but dont know if there's any offset at which they wont rub anywhere w/ the stock suspension.

I currently use my 275/40/17 V710s on 17x8 wheels for autox, is this setup dangerous for TTC/HPDEs?

What wheel/tire setup are you guys running or would recommend for optimal grip/handling?

Dave 90TT

iTrader: (4)

I can't answer the wheels question (other than to mention that make sure whatever wheels you are thinking of getting clear your brakes, and if you ever plan on getting a big brake kit, that the wheels clear those as well), but about the TTC, I'm not sure how your NASA region works, but in NASA Rocky Mountain, you don't need to go to comp school (in fact, comp school is only for wheel to wheel racers). All you need to do is get checked off to drive in HPDE 4, and then successfully complete one weekend in HPDE 4, and then one weekend with a provisional TT license in TT.

I will say 275 wide tires is bit too wide for 8's. I think 9.0 is minimum recommended width for 275's. You can obviously make them fit, but there is probably a bit of a bulge over the side, and as your tires get hot from road course tracking, that might be a problem.

Dave

l30thelion

iTrader: (3)

Thanks for your feedback.

Yes, while it's true that it's possible to acquire a TT license by moving up to HPDE 4, the Florida Region also provides the option, to HPDE3/4 drivers, of acquiring a license via the Competition School (from http://www.drivenasafl.com/downloads...tionSchool.pdf) :

"The 2-day NASA FL Competition School Graduation Certificate meets the training
requirements for the graduate to apply for a NASA FL Provisional Competition
License (issued thru NASA Florida) or to acquire a NASA Time Trial Competition
License."

I am thinking about going this route since I feel the training/eductation will be worthwhile.
I've never participated in any session where passing in corners is allowed or taken different lines than what is the standard HPDE line. Hopefully the comp school will allow me to practice those skills within a school context. I think the $600 will be worth it, what do you guys think?

Dave 90TT

iTrader: (4)

Interesting. I think it's worth it, I would love to go through our regions comp school, but you need a car that meets the CCR for a race car to do so. A HPDE car (or a TT car) both of which only have to meet the CCR for HPDE cars, are not acceptable for comp school in our region.

On a side note, here in NASA RM, we allow passing in certain corners in the last session of the day for HPDE 3, and unlimited passing (including corners) in HPDE 4.

GaryM05

Is your car race-legal (roll cage, fire system, etc), and do you have the full setup of required personal safety gear (racing suit, gloves, etc)? If not, you might not be able to take your car on track during a comp. school track session. Your NASA Regional Director should be able to answer that question for you.

Also, be aware that while a comp. school is a controlled environment, and a great place to learn, it can also be somewhat 'wild and wooly' in terms of simulated race starts & other hair-raising situations, including a full race to end the day. You might want to consider carefully whether you would want to take your car out there in that environment, even if it were to be allowed (I'm assuming this is a street Z, and not a full-prep race car.)

IMO, HPDE 4's open passing rules are a better way to start getting acclimated to going side-by-side through turns, as you're much less likely to find yourself actually contesting a corner there than you will be in a wheel-to-wheel racing school.

mistico

iTrader: (5)

Right on Dave90TT.

I'm not very familiar with NASA at all, except that they have local events in the area.

Where would my car be classed with:
4 wheel BBK
Quaife LSD
Hotchkis sways
18 x 9.5 with 275/35/18 all around
No shocks/coilovers yet, most likely Ohlins.
Bone stock power wise down to the air filter.

Oh, and would it be competitive, or do I need to remove certain parts to be classed differently?

I'll check out their site as well.

GaryM05

I would think that a 275 would be a little too wide to run on an eight inch wheel at the speeds you'll be experiencing on the track. Lots of folks here have run these at all 4 corners...a quick search would likely turn up lots of threads that could help you identify a good wheel and size that would let you accomplish that.

For my part, I ran 225 front and 245 rear Nitto NT-01's on the OEM 17" wheels last year. They gave me enough grip to push the car and have some fun, but not so much that I couldn't slide it around when I wanted to.

Dave 90TT

iTrader: (4)

Well, Time Trials for NASA has a classification form, with points for various things. At a quick run through, your car starts out in TTC, assuming it is not a track or GT model. Track or GT would be TTC*, which means TTC plus 7 points.

You get points for each mod, as follows:

Brakes +2

Quiafe LSD +1 (modified OEM LSD) If you have a base, with no stock LSD, then you get +3 here instead.

Hotchkis sways +2

Tires Base size for TTC is 255, for 20 mm over, you get +4, then depending on what brand/model of tires you have, you get more points

Shocks will give you points, depending on what the shocks are.

From the above, it looks like you have 9 points, plus whatever the tires give you. Every 20 points move you up a class. The goal is to get right at 19 points, so you are not moved up a class, but have the maximum modifications allowed for your class.

My suggestions to be competitive (given that I haven';t started in TT yet), would be to downsize the tires to 265, which will only give you +1 instead of +4, get good tires R888's are what I am using this season), for another +7 points, and then find out where you are point wise, and then do some weight reduction per the rules, or suspension modification to stay within the TTC class, without going over in points.

The classification form and rules are all located here If you are serious about it, start going to NASA HPDE's and get some driving experience, and talk to the time trialers in your region for advice.

Dave 90TT

iTrader: (4)

What Gary said.

Additonally, the check ride for HPDE 4 involves a lot of side by side through corners and such, and once you drive in HPDE 4, there is unlimited passing. probably a better environment than comp school, for learning that kind of thing. Safer for your car, too, as no one in HPDE and TT wants to bang there car up, while open wheel racing does occasionally involve paint swapping, although it is seriously frowned upon.

mistico

iTrader: (5)

Thanks for the info.

I'll be hitting up Daveh for some addtional info at one of the events.

l30thelion

iTrader: (3)

From the Competition School brochure (http://www.drivenasafl.com/downloads...onSchool.pdf):

"Vehicle used in the school track training drills need not have a
rollcage, only the normal HPDE safety equipment for the vehicle and driver is needed.
Only those who wish to take part in the OPTIONAL graduation race at the end of the
school will need to have a fully prepared race car with roll cage and all the related safety
equipment for the car and driver."

But, I see your point, and this video is very eye-opening, I believe it was shot during a comp school (http://www.blogracers.com/index.php?paged=2):
Video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAASGXStmrs

Thanks, definitely re-thinking the path I should take.

l30thelion

iTrader: (3)

Interesting, my goal is really just to be able to participate in TT events. W2W racing is too expensive/risky for me at this point. I'm already signed up for an event prior to the comp school so I'll work on trying to get a check ride into HPDE4. The reason I considered the comp school to be the best path to TT, is because they kind of sell it that way:

"
Are you ready to move from HPDE into the racer’s fraternity?
Are you thinking about getting started in NASA Time Trial?
Are you curious about track competition, but undecided if it’s the right move for you?
.....
This is a highly structured school conducted in a non-contact track environment. The
training program consists of alternating classroom workshops and in-car practice drills on
track. Controlled track training drills allow participants to safely learn new driving
situations such as negotiating corners side-by-side with other cars; to pass and to be
passed in turns; to discover “new lines” besides the normal “driver ed” line and to
practice multi-car “green flag” race starts. Classroom workshop sessions cover race
topics including “Situation awareness”; “Passing strategy”; “Reading the track”;
“Qualifying” and other competition related concepts and principles.
To ensure a quality learning experience, a limited number of drivers will be enrolled in"

In any case I still have to be accepted into the comp school so its possible that I wont even be able to participate.

Thanks for your input.

GaryM05

Wow, that sounds like a worthwhile program for anyone who will be on-track in an open passing group. If they're specifically targeting it to include prospective TT-ers, I'd say it's worth considering. $600 is a little more expensive than the typical NASA weekend, but quite a bit less than a 'pro' driving or racing school.

If you decide to do it, be sure and let us know how it goes!

l30thelion

iTrader: (3)

Just go an email regarding the school (aarrgh!):

"
Hi Leo,

I was notified just last evening that Bob Van Epps will be unable to hold the school for us on May 31-June 1 weekend due to an unexpected conflict in his schedule. We are all very disappointed.

So...at this point the date of the next NASA FL competition school is on hold. We are exploring other alternatives and perhaps a date this fall. We'll inform all NASA FL members as soon as we set a new date.

In the meantime, please continue to keep a list of your events and we'll re-evaluate your experience closer to the new school date.

Thank you!
"

sfarrah

iTrader: (4)

Hi Dave, regarding your classing am I reading correctly that based on your weight and turbos they only added 7 points for base classing? I am currently classed as TTA and someday down the road may consider going FI of some sort and am curious how badly I'd get penalized. Either way I'll likely try to max out TTA with additional mods in the meantime.

I plan to run Time Trials until my car is caged and at that point plan to run it in Performance Touring and possibly ITE or SP regionally with the SCCA here in TX. With any luck it will be ready for door to door action in 2 months.

I need to get my pics and videos together and make a post about my experiences with NASA. I've done two events so far and they have been a great bunch to run with so far.

Keep us posted on your results!

betamotorsports

iTrader: (1)

Nope. Per Greg, because the base is on the same line as the Enthusiast (which has the VLSD) you only get a +1 for an aftermarket diff on a base 350Z. Yet another reason to buy the base 350Z if you intend to take it to the track...

http://www.nasaforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=20443

Dave 90TT

iTrader: (4)

Not quite.

My base class was TTD. With the turbos, I was re-baseclassed as TTC*. Up a whole class, and 7 points on top of that.

However, that is specific to my car, with it's weight and whp. It will be different for each car. If you are already maxed out as TTA, you will most likely end up in TTS/U/R, the purely hp/weight classes.