mhoward1

lol...wait...ok still lol.

PBLRacing

iTrader: (1)

When you guys finish this discussion, can someone please show me "the line" through T17 at Sebring!! I've only got about 1,500 laps there and bunches of top five finishes but still can't explain to my students how to go through there fast like I do.

When we are done with that, we can talk about T1 & T2 at Roebling and what "the Line" is through those corners.

We've had similar discussions in the paddock concering the importance of hitting every single point on the "line" in order to turn a fast lap. Our general conclusion is that an obsessive compulsion toward driving the line isn't necessarily the fastest way around the track. We can drive the perfect line all day long, hitting each and every turn in OR we can drive fast. When we drive fast, we drive close to the line but use it as a reference to react to what the car is doing at any specific moment, anywhere on the track. There are people who can do both, but my thought is that those are the guys getting paid to drive.

That being said, when I teach my students I try and teach the "line" as best as possible while always focusing and teaching them what to do when then miss the line (which they and I will invariably do).

Stack

Which line? LOL ... do you teach a different line if you're instructing in a front wheel drive car vs a rear wheel drive car? OR are you simply teaching the same line with different control inputs based on the obvious varilables (namely power, weight, & mechanical grip)? I think that's what I'm getting at.

Fooshe

iTrader: (42)

Respectfully, I have to disagree. Very few tracks have corners that are early apex's. And if they are, sometimes a double apex is best. Unless I am missunderstanding your statement...which is possible.

The lines we teach in the school are the optimal lines. By that I mean the line best suited for the lowest time possible if you hit all your apex's, throttle points, etc (qualifying line is what I call it). Now I don't know about the rest of you, but I have almost never had a race where I could drive the perfect line for an entire lap...if so, I would argue that there may have been a race going on and you weren't in it.

And the line taught to a driver with front wheel drive will be different from a rear or all wheel drive car. Then there is the difference for low and higher horsepower cars, etc.

I would also throw out there that the race winner is the one who finishes first going the slowest possible speed. And sometimes the race winner was not the person who crossed the finish line first.....think about it before you dispute it.

Fooshe

iTrader: (42)

Wow, that really suprises me that you would do that. So you actually reinforse them being offline by teaching them what to do or is it just a recovery skill?

As far as your comment on driving fast or staying dead center on the line, I don't get it. There is only one line that is optimal for any vehicle. Granted, that line may be different for each car, or even different for the same car based on it's particular set up or tire compound for that lap, but there is only one line that is truely fastest. The issue is the driver and the errors made to cause them to loose time.

It is my belief that you can't make up time, you can only preserve it. This is why a qualifying lap may be different from a race lap. For instance, a race lap starts and ends at the start/finish line, but a qualifying lap may start 2-3 turns prior to the straight that the start/finish line is on.

What I think you are experiencing is an inability to communicate what you are feeling to your student and why your style suits feeling the track more than any other method. When I run in to a student that needs to learn more by "feeling" than by following direction, I take them through the same corners different ways. Each time I tell them what I am going to do and what the result will be. They "feel" the result and then relate that to the car's attitude on track. They then start to understand it better. At that point, they are more open to your suggestions and directions because logic will then tell them that the "feel" that is comfortable for them will come if they do what you say.

Either way, your natural ability would appear to be high and you are probably a very talanted driver. Unfortunately, I know a ton of REALLY fast guys who can't articulate how they do it, but they are warp-speed fast. They, like you, just can feel their way around the corners better than most. It's not a fault of theirs, it is just how they are wired.

betamotorsports

iTrader: (1)

I think you're confusing racing with time trialing/qualifying. If I'm racing another car with fairly equal setup and driver skills and I drive the "ideal" line around the track, I will never be able to pass him or he will quickly pass me. An early apex is sometimes needed when you stick your front wheel inside the car ahead of you at turn in. Entering a turn from the center of the track makes it more difficult for the car behind you to pass. All of that is racing and is what's needed to maintain or improve your position in the race. None of that is used in autocross, time trialing, or qualifying because it affects lap time - which is the goal of those events.

Please give me an example.

mpowers

iTrader: (7)

Protest



No, really, even I am lost....

WXSigns

iTrader: (15)

I was going to say protest as well. Or, different class winners...LOL

dnguyent

iTrader: (5)

Okay, I'm not disputing this, and I've thought about it, and I don't get it. Is this one of those trick questions, like the guy that actually finished first had a cheater car, so he DQ'd?

Stack

Different class cars being faster on different tracks? LMP2 vs LMP1 for example in ALMS?

mhoward1

technically though, they are not in the same race. On the track at the same time, but each class is in it's own race.

betamotorsports

iTrader: (1)

No, they are all in the same race and each car can be the overall winner. Remember Daytona the first year of the Daytona Prototypes? A GT class car won overall and was crowned the winner of the race. A class win is just that, not the race win.

WXSigns

iTrader: (15)

^^ Exactly. Very typical of Grand-Am races with enduros.

mhoward1

ok, that's right, but still doesn't explain the Foosh question.

Stack

You're right, it doesn't ... c'mon Foosh, you got some ehsplainin' to do!!

PBLRacing

iTrader: (1)

....and I am the one with the "inability to communicate"???

Fooshe

iTrader: (42)

Ok, I don't live on this fourm so please cut me some slack for not responding right away. So let's all just calm down and put away your owned flags and I will "ehsplain." I am actually suprised that nobody figured this out. While the enduro and Grand Am answer is technically right, I was referring to something else when I stated "sometimes the race winner was not the person who crossed the finish line first."

I was in a sprint race some time ago at Willowsprings. 3 of us going for the win. Long story short, I got a launch off turn 9 and caught the 2 guys who were dicing for the win. Up the front staight, we went 3 wide and we all crossed the stripe REALLY close. However, the car on the outside had us both by what all three of us agreed was about 1/4 to 1/2 a car length. The guy on the inside got first and I got second. The guy on the outside got third. We were all stumped at first. So how is this possible you ask?

It took us a second, but the answer is pretty simple. The bonehead on the outside put his timing transponder on the back of his car off the rear bumper. Both me and guy on the inside had ours on our front ends. Consequently, our timing becons crossed the line first and timing and scoring showed the real race winner as the guy who crossed the line 3rd.

Here endith the lesson...

Fooshe

iTrader: (42)

Gary, please don't be offended. I meant no disrespect at all. In fact, I think later in that posting I gave you some assumed props. What I was doing was pointing out where I think the communication issue is, which is not a reflection on you. I know plenty of guys that are damn fine drivers and VERY fast on track, but they can't communicate what it is that makes them as fast as they are. They can tell you what their line is and what gear they may be in, etc, but they just can't seem to capture the little things that they pic up and adjust to quickly to be as quick as they are because there are some many lap specific things that they encounter. Most of them being things that they are used to and react out of instinct, not thought. That doesn't mean they are idiots or ignorant, it just means that there may be too many things that happen that they themselves just can't remember.

For example, I just seem to get Turn 9 at Willowsprings. I know guys who are great drivers and can't get that turn, which many find to be the most difficult turn on the west coast to master. I just feel the turn and understand the way a racecar likes to go through that turn. I always make up time there and seem to carry more speed than most through this turn. I can explain the line and throttle point, etc., but I can't seem to communicate the feeling of the "launch" I usually get. It's just a feeling.

Kind of like hitting the sweet spot when playing golf. It is just the right swing with the ball hitting just the right spot on the club face. I have done it only a hand full of times but couldn't tell you how the hell to do it consistantly. Know what I mean?

Fooshe

iTrader: (42)

As for the comment "...the race winner is the one who finishes first going the slowest possible speed" was aimed more at the concept that all racers should want to achive this to preserve their equipment.

I think it should have been stated more like "when you get the lead the idea is to
win the race at the slowest possible speed."

I think that would have made much more sense.

WXSigns

iTrader: (15)

Odd, I thought in SCCA the transponder had to be in the front drivers side or passenger side not the rear?