mhoward1

discuss...

stuntman

elaborate?

mw9

iTrader: (51)

I would have to think race lines. That's the whole reason I am paying someone to teach me. I would think that are the same. The school should be teaching you the fastest way around the track

Nihilation

iTrader: (9)

The school may be teaching the line to turn the quickest laps but in a race environment the school line may leave holes that in a race environment could lead to an opponent overtaking?

Beau

iTrader: (4)

The school line should be the fast PLUS safe line. The race line doesn't always leave room for error. If someone takes the bus home from the race track then the school didn't do their job.

betamotorsports

iTrader: (1)

Huh? Whether there's room left for error is up to the driver attempting the pass, not what the school taught anyone.

The racing line is basically:

1. The line one car width or more to the inside of the ideal corner entry.
2. An early apex.
3. A very late apex.
4. The line one car width or more to the inside of the ideal corner exit.

Pick 2 from the above list.

FYI... the race winner is the driver who can turn the fastest laps without having to drive the ideal (fastest lap time) line around the track.

JETPILOT

iTrader: (51)

School lines emphasis no trail braking. This would obviously be a different line than one with trail braking. The school line sets the apex cones a little late to prevent early apexing which is potentialy more dangerous to a beginer than late apexing.

Beau

iTrader: (4)

At the end of the back straight at VIR I was taught that the school/safe line is to brake once at the end of the straight away and brake again after you make the first left hand turn, then gas it down the roller coaster.

My instructor who races Spec E30 says the racing line is to just trail brake straight through those 2 turns and apex much earlier than the school line.

Obviously just because he races Spec E30 doesn't mean his answer is right.

laze1

iTrader: (17)

A HPDE school line is the "ideal" line...fast, smooth, and clipping all the perfect apexs

the race line is the fastest line while passing cars...most competition schools make you drive around lap after lap "off-line", either on the inside or outside, or a mix of both...and do laps side-by-side with another cars...while going race speeds..

mhoward1

Yes and no. As others have stated the school lines show you the ideal apex. It's not always the fastest way though in traffic or a place to out brake, or early apex, etc etc.

As others have stated the school lines also leave margins for error and also places for car control to slowly be built. Very few people starting out can rotate a car with enough control to handle an early turn in, then smooth enough brake to throttle transition, then throttle moderation for what the race line turn in would be. As Beau said, our jobs as instructors are to:
1) Keep you and us safe
2) make sure you have fun
3) Make sure you learn what you want to

if we fail at #1, all else is done.

bigdaddy

iTrader: (3)

The correct line is the line Marty isn't running.

z-u-later

iTrader: (43)

smooth (school or race) line = FAST
^ ninja edit

mhoward1

dude, that so hurts...

Let me get a car with some actual HP and we will talk. Or better yet, come out and see how you do with out that M power backing you up.

stuntman

Not necessarily. You can give the car smooth inputs and be on the correct line, but that dosn't necessarily mean you're fast.

Keeping the tire at 100% it's grip level (on the outer edges of the friction circle) + biggest radius possible = fast.

Billhyco

iTrader: (14)

not sure what its worth, but at most track days i try to run both online and offline. race situations you never know who or if someone will be beside you so I personally feel its great practice. if nothing else its good to know how I will act if I can't follow what I think is the "perfect line" through a particular turn. It's good for me to know where I will end up at track out, how the car will handle and feel taking the turn much tighter. just something I started doing....prolly looks strange to most that have no idea why i am doing it.

betamotorsports

iTrader: (1)

The race line is the line you have to take to pass someone going "fast" on the ideal school line.

stuntman

"race-line" is a vague term that has no clear definition.

The "ideal" line is the fastest way around the corner, a "defensive line" seems to fit the definitions that everyone is giving...

dnguyent

iTrader: (5)

Marty has a few good debates going (damn you!)

I think we better define the school line and race line. I get the impression that the school line is the one that HPDE's tend to teach. They emphasize the late apex, which to me means later than the ideal apex(es) for a fast lap (otherwise, why would they call it 'late'). Based on that assumption, the 'school line' is the safer line that leaves a good margin of safety and gives the student a baseline to work off. That student should be able to adjust to an earlier apex as he/she progresses with other vehicle handling skills (like how to go 2-wheels off properly).

The race line, to me, is the line I'd take while qualifying for a race that would result in me feeding my family or not.

spf4000

Depends on the school too. I noticed that they teach much more aggressive lines at racing schools compared to HPDE events held by SCCA and NASA and such. Plus, most HPDE schools teach people that you're supposed to drive out to the optimum exit line (even when you're still within the tire's grip limit), while racing schools teach people to let the car drift out to the optimum line at the exit. If your car is not going out to the optimum exit point on its own, it shows you that you still have some grip left, and you can either adjust your apex a bit earlier or increase your acceleration coming out of the corner.

But I think it's okay for HPDEs to be teaching safer lines. Most of the people attending HPDE have little to no experience, so I wouldn't want them teaching people to use lines that have no margin for error. There are plenty of crashes at HPDE events as is.

stuntman

Radius = MPH

Bigger radius = faster

Most HPDE "Schools" teach people to just get a rough and safe idea of the racing line in their own personal street cars, so they tend to be overly-cautious and teach 'safe' habbits like turning-in on throttle. While racing schools teach people how to maximize the car around every corner.