I have stuff I want to post in this debate as well, but I will add it later.

 

I would want to know the best way to brake and every situation.

 

id say for beginners it depends on the car and how it reacts to trailbraking...easier on some cars, touchier on others.

 

In relation to the Race vs. School line, I think beginners should learn to brake straight before trail braking. It may not be fastest, but it's certainly safest. When I'm hard on the brakes at the end of the back straight at VIR the rear end is wagging around a little, I still let off the brakes most of the way when initiating that turn since it's such high speed. However, going into turn 3 at VIR I'm ALWAYS trail braking and heel/toeing into that turn. It's more challenging since you are doing so many things at once, but it's very rewarding when you do it right. Now, if a beginner were trying to do that they would probably not learn enough about taking the right LINE and end up screwing up everything. Learn one thing at a time and learn how to do it right. Then when you feel you are ready, put it all together. Learn one technique at a time and don't overload yourself.

 

Straight for beginners. They have more important things to learn before trail braking.

 

Obviously dealing with braking weight trasfer and then lateral weight transfer independantly is safer than managing both at once.

 

I sternly direct new HPDE-1 level students to ONLY brake in a straight line. No options!

And if they do it accidentally, and do/or don't spin, I often will still ask them to pit to have a little discussion...just to make a major point to them.

If they do it on purpose (after being warned)...I tell them that they will crash and burn by doing that and I will not be in the car when that happens....so they can go find another instructor.
Note: I give them one warning...then tell them to park the park and gt anew instructor

I beleive that trail-braking (planned or unplanned) is the biggest cause of spins in noobs. I am a PCA instructor, so I get to ride in many older 911s...so you can imagine why I have this talk with students...

 

Which is why they are often taught to brake in a straight line and turn-in on throttle?

 

There's a good reason why most HPDEs have the braking zones (usually straight line) marked with cones prior to each event. And during the lead-follow warmup laps, the instructors can point out when & where brakes should be applied/lifted.

 

Yep!

I had a good student with 2-3 track days, in a older 911 spin at Barber going fairly slowly, who inadvertently trail braked thru an decreasing radius corner and do a nice lazy slow spin...but right in front of a pack of cars who could not see him sitting in the middle of track pointed the wrong direction... luckily nobody hit us head-on, but it was a very close call...

So back in the paddock, the student ask if I was scared: I say no...because I knew we were gonna spin well before he did (but there was no saving it so I didn't say/do anything but pucker-up). So we had a great discussion of what happened. And I think he realized how close he came to some VERY BAD stuff by just braking a little to late/long into a corner. I beleive some call this an "aa_ha moment" (sp?)

This is the day I became a hard-*** on this subject and he learned NEVER to do this in an old 911

 

Add my vote to the "noobs should brake in a straight line" option. For beginners, trail braking seems to have a much better chance at spinning them backwards off track than it does shaving some time off their laps. Additionally, it is so often difficult to get beginners to brake hard enough and really compress their braking zones in straight lines, that giving them the option to carry the brakes longer just puts them into a situation where they are on the brakes way too long and grossly over slow the car.

Now...all this really depends on what a "noob" is. Some drivers may be ready for trail braking by their 2nd or 3rd event. Others may not be ready for it until event 8 or 9.

That's where us idiots in the right seat earn our keep.

 

Until this year I agreed with everyone here, and to the most part I still do. But after sitting down with Ross Bently and one of his instructors at lunch, they have sort of leaned me towards the other way. It's not as extreme as most may think though.

here's the way that ross explained it to me (paraphrased of course)

If a new driver learns to only brake in a straight line at first, then it is much harder to learn trail braking later on. In Natural driving most non-HPDE students strail brake anyways, just not at the braking limits. Its a natural thing that may or may not be a bad habit. Most of us who started all this a while ago were taught that trail braking for all but advance drivers was evil.

Ross was saying that on 90% of the turns, especially anything coming down from a high speed should be straight line braking for beginners, but if there is one corner that is slow and has a slower approach then you can allow the driver to experience the feel of trail braking. Have them start braking early and straight, then once they are comfortable with that corner, have then decrease the braking by about 10% and hold it for a fraction longer each lap, keep them and the car in check. After a day or two they will be trail braking that corner, at a safe speed and get a feel for how the car rotates as well, something else it takes a lot of novices time to get use to.

Listening to him he made some really good points. I haven't completely subscribed to this, but he made some very good points and he surely knows what he is talking about. He also made it a point to show the importance of skid pad time and car control with rotation and TB as well.

 

Brake in a straight line with me in the car please.

Practice trail braking when your in advanced. It comes naturally when you start to brake deeper anyways, and before you know it, trail brake!

 

You pretty much need to trailbrake any car to keep the car at 100% the tires grip from braking -transitioning to apex.

What 'new' students should lean is vehicle dynamics (why car's do what they do) and learn that you can't give an older 911 the same inputs that you can a 350Z, or worse, a front-wheel-drive car. Understanding why car's do what they do, and understanding what inputs to give the particular car they are driving will have them learn more than just making them brake in a straight line, then go back to power AT turn-in in any car they drive.

Learn how cars need to be balanced and learn how to apply that to what they are driving.

Learn trail-braking in slower-speed corners, then once mastered, start to apply it everywhere.


0.02

 

I know some racing schools set up trail braking exercises, one car at a time in a medium speed corner to make sure nobody makes contact if there is a spin. Turn 6 at road atlanta is a good one. The one I went to a little while back did it and it helped a TON, I never would have known you could go that deep on the brakes.

 

Skip Barber or Panoz?


You want to get to full throttle (and keep it down without lifting) as early as possible. Once you know where that point is, you want to get to that point as fast as possible (brake late, high entry speed, but still able to rotate the car and get to power at the same ideal spot).


0.02

 

trailbraking shouldn't be attempted until the racer/aspiring racer has learned to brake decently in a straight line.

 

Well, I think this depends on a number of factors, including the car and what you call a "noob". For example, I think the newer 07+ 350z trail brake very well. Also, the track "noob" may have other trail braking experience (say maybe from autox). So, I think it depends on the situation. However, I think "noobs" should only do so after discussing it with their instructor and getting their agreement. For that matter, every driver with a passenger in the car (whether it is an instructor or not) should consider the fact that their is more than one person in the car.

 

I couldnt have said it better myself. It eventually happens on it's own.

 

If particular track has a slow speed corner I, often in the last session of the day, ask my students to trail brake a little through that corner so they get an idea of what its like. Whether I do this or not depends on how the student behaved during the day.