at the NASA events in the Great Lake region they use the facility's flaggers. I don't think I would want a volunteer to do an event at an important position such as that.

 

I've learned there are HUGE differences between NASA regions... both of our local regions (Southeast and Mid-Atlantic) use volunteer workers. Supposedly newbs have to be paired up with veterans. Maybe someone who knows NASA a little more intimately than I do can fill us in.

 

NASA has one of it's volunteer's paired up with one if not two of VIR's flaggers.

So, no it was not NASA workers.

This discussion is on NASA forums so I would suggest posting there in the Mid Atlantic section or contacting them.


Also, the driver of the Subaru asked to not have any pics of the damaged car posted. So, it might be a good idea to take that pic down.

 

Sorry, I did not mean to offend anyone or stir up any controversy.
Mods, please feel free to delete pics, thread or whatever you feel appropriate.
Thanks.

 

Removed the images, but I think it's still a good discussion.

I understand the waving yellow when there is minimal impact and such, but if emergency vehicles need to roll, then a quick black flag or at the minimum a full course yellow to allow the EV's to get the the scene and take stock of the situation. That's what they do most times in larger profession events, so why not here.

 

I agree autox/road course is a whole different ball game, just trying to give the guy some credibility and not lead on that he was some bench racing hotshoe that put his foot in his mouth.

From 3-4 cars back the yellow was the first flag thrown, and after that we decided to end the session, we saw a double-yellow flag and by the time we got back to 17a the checkered was waving, so possibly the cause for a lack of black flag? There were several points that weekend where EV's were on track and the course went under a white flag.

EDIT: He was solo.

 

This really seems to be a bad judgement call by someone. I have been to loads of NASA events, and in DE sessions they black flag even the most simple offs, or a car has a mechanical breakdown, even if off line.

With an upside car on track, I can't imagine continueing with a session.

 

I just read through his post on the mid-a section of NASA forums... very disheartening to me that not one post mentioned a lack of black or red flag. I guess they wait to see if someone is hurt before red-flagging a session.

Edit... I'll give them the benefit of the doubt: I'll assume for now that NASA makes very clear to its HPDE participants that they use race style flagging/emergency protocols and that the HPDE participants know what that means (and how it's different from every other HPDE.)

 

With my first post here I am by no means trying to stir the pot. But as an instructor with nasa who happened to be with Chris (Forzwin) as we drove past Nicks accident, I have to speak up about all the negativity and questions on Nasa safety.

Some background on me. I have run VIR since it reopened in 2000. I have been a flagger and now an instructor. We were a couple of cars behind the incident and I was actually behind the wheel. I feel that I am qualified to speak with authority on what happened that day.

First Nick is a skilled driver who made a mistake. The mechanics of the mistake are not in question here. He was solo'd so it was felt by his instructor and NASA that he was safe and competent

Second the flagging. As we came up the esses I saw a waving yellow on my right just before the crest of the 3rd S. SOP for an off. Now as we took SouthBend at drivers left I saw Nick in the tires. Upside down. He was 20 yards off the track I dont recall if there was a flagger at southbend. Maybe video will show that.

Given the mild the chaos that inevitably happens with an off, the lack of clear condition of the car and its position. I can see why some feel there was some delay in the reaction of the Nasa staff. I disagree
Once the information was gathered, relayed back to control and actions taken, we had traveled maybe the distance of the backstraight and through rollercoaster and started heading into the pits. As I made the turn down pit road I could see the checkered flag.The session was over anyway. So with the fact that Nasa Hot pulls, it was the end of the session, the local yellow was taken care of, the car was very little danger of being hit, Nick was up and out of the car. What exactly did anyone do wrong?

Saturday am during the Drivers meeting, it is made clear that Nasa hot pulls using appropriate flags and protocols. This is discussed further in classes and often encountered with an instructor to help you through the situation. We must remember that this was in HPDE 2 not 1. So the safe bet there would be that the drivers in 2 have had at least heard of hot pulls if not managed to navigate by one while on track. With every situation comes learning and when this happens again, maybe things will be done differently who knows. Lets all just be glad that Nick is ok.

 

Thanks for the post, and for the insight... a little background on myself, since I've probably been the most vocal on the issue here... I've been driving VIR since 2001, and have been an HPDE organizer and event steward for TZC/THSCC since 2002 and now run my own track day organization Asphalt Ventures. I'm not an instructor because I know I don't have the intestinal fortitude for it, and I commend you for what you do.

Agreed

I've never seen turn 10 without a corner worker... and if that's the case, again... another red flag raised in my book (pun intended.)

My information is that NASA uses it's own control person... and by "control" I mean, they have their own personnel listening to, responding to, and directing the corner workers (whether they were VIR workers or not.) If they didn't have a worker at turn 10, they surely had multiple workers at Oak tree monitoring south bend (THE most notorious turn at VIR) since I doubt a worker in the esses can see the downhill very well (maybe they knew there was an off, but not necessarily a roll-over?)

At any rate, there was obviously a delay in a call from the workers to whomever made the decision to simply checker the session instead of throwing a red flag. In my opinion (and it is simply an opinion) THAT is exactly what is wrong in the DE context of HPDE2.

Again... I'm not necessarily debating the merits of hot pulls. What I WILL debate is the merit of a hot pull for a serious incident in an HPDE run group (and an impact with roll-over I think we can all agree is a serious incident.)

Agreed

 

Agree totally with both comments - very well stated!!!!
Looking forward to the next NASA event at VIR in the Fall

 

Thank you gentleman.
Stacy- especially about instructing. I have already gone for a "ride" with a student at Summit. But we got lucky. It is a risk yes but one that I am willing to take. Grateful that someone took with me.
I hope I didnt ruffle any feathers here. I really hesitated and even slept on the idea of that being my first post, fearful of making a bad first impression.I am in the process of selling my 93 Se-R track car for a 350z. So I am not out to make anyone grumpy with my presence here. I have much to learn and it seems everyone has much to offer.
I appreciate it very much

Zach Mickle

 

Ps
Crawford, have you got any pics of your car you could send me. I am in love with those Rpf1's. 17x9 +22 right?

 

Too bad I just sold mine. It was "track" ready!

 

Yup and one hell of a deal. Oh well. I cant wait to start a new project.

 

Hey... if I haven't made anyone grumpy yet, you've got nothing to worry about. Oh wait... I probably have

 

Hey guys hope you all had fun at VIR. I was there but only for the circuitcross on the Patriot's course. I saw a few of you guys at various parts of the Track. Reserved I think I saw you at the camping area in the woods. I was driving the Black 350Z Track. I wanted to stop and introduce myself but I was already running late to get my car teched for the Circuitcross school. ForZwin I enjoyed talking to you at the Circuitcross itself. I am hoping to get out on the big track soon for an HPDE but for now trying to pay the Z off so I can afford to run stuff more expensive than autocross. Any interesting events coming up that you guys were going to? Let me know I am really interested in getting to know some guys that do more than just spend loads of cash on performance parts and then standing by their cars in a parking lot. Take it easy.

Brendon

 

I know of a pretty good one!

https://my350z.com/forum/autocross-r...mber-30th.html

 

Brendon,

Asphalt Ventures has some of the better pricing for track time that I've seen, check them out if it fits your schedule, sorry stack, I just happen to be busy around 11/30.

I autox here in Central VA when I can to fill the void and will be making every attempt to get back to VIR in October with NASA. You can visit HERE for a list of autox's and track events I usually tune into.