I have a question for the racing gurus.

I am planning on going to Poconos this year (hopefully in the Spring) for an HPDE event with one of the local clubs. One of the events I am looking at attending is a 2-day novice oriented event. First day consists of slalom, skidpad, braking, instruction etc (2.5 hrs driving time but it will not be lapping). Second day will consist of 3hr total track lapping time.

I am trying to figure out how much tire/brake wear to expect for the weekend. I am not ready for a dedicated race wheels/tires, so I will be replacing my crappy OEM Bridgestones with performance street tires (P Zero/S-03 Pole Position or something in the same category). I will also replace my brake pads with quality street pads.

So, given that I will have street tires and pads what should I expect in terms of wear for the weekend assuming, of course, I keep the car in one piece? Should I not even bother going and just wait to get some race rubber? Will my brand new tires be reduced to slicks or have chunks of rubber missing? How much tire wear should I expect? Will I need to change my brake pads on the spot so I can drive the car home?

If someone asked this before, I apologize and hope you can post a thread where this is discussed, as I could not find anything.

Thanks for the help,

Dmitry

 

A lot depends on how much mileage you currently have on the tires and brakes.

The tires will not suffer much, but the brakes will depending on how brake intence th etrack is, I am not familiar with that one, but if there are a lot of high speed braking and not much time to cool down between stops then the brakes will wear, and you should change brake fluid to synthetic.

If you have less than 5K on them you should be fine if yo uare close to 10K I would replace or check them and take a spare set with you.

 

If you'll be putting on fresh aggressive street/light-duty HPDE pads ahead of time, you'll be fine. Novices don't use the brakes very hard and 3 hrs of track time will barely wear them out at Pocono. However, pads wear unevenly, and the wear accelerates as the pads get thinner, so don't bring a set with less than about 2/3 left to be on the safe side. You should also change your brake fluid before the event to fresh fluid - preferrably something like ATE super blue or Motul RBF 600 which is capable of high temps and has no real downside (other than costing a few bucks more).

Your tires will be fine. You'll take the tread down a bit on the outer shoulders but they will definitely still be usable after the event.

Go out an have fun!

If you want to be really on the safe side, put new pads in before the event and bring the old set with you just in case you somehow end up killing the new set (very unlikely for a first-timer).

After a couple of events you will most likely need to switch to a track pad to manage the wear. What kills brake pads is the heat and it does so very efficiently and quickly. Unfortunately, no-one has figured out a way to make a pad that works really well on both street and track - but as a novice, you get a temporary exclusion from the rule.

Jason

 

Thanks guys for all the replies!

I have another question/problem. I just called my insurance company today and they told me that in no way, shape, or form will they cover my car during HPDE if I wreck it. I will call them again and ask for a list of exclusions since people don't always know what they are talking about. However, the guy I talked to on the phone seemed like he knew what was going on.

Any ideas or suggestions would be appreciated.

Dmitry

 

Not all insurance may cover some will as long as they know it is not a timed event which puts it in the category of racing.

Some have had their cars covered by not revealing all of the circumstances, like losing control and hitting a wall.

 

You might look at your policy and see if there are specific exclusions; then talk to your insurance rep. It helps to know facts ahead of time.

Even if the written policy states that 'non-timed instruction' is allowed, you will either be dropped or have a hefty increase in your premium if you crash on a track. (see the posts by D'oh who hit a wall at Laguna Seca).

 

Insurance Companies are purposefully obtuse and vague about this. 9 times out of 10 the actual written policy won't even discuss it. The best way to check is to call your insurance agent and ask him about it in a diplomatic way. Here is the method I used:

Me: Hi Mr. Agent - I have a question. If I take some additional driver training classes, can I get a discount on my insurance?
Agent: No, not usually. What kind of classes are you talking about?
Me: Well, I don't know, maybe some driver safety classes from the local police department or some car control, accident avoidance courses by a driver organization...
Agent: No, that won't give you a discount unless you have points on your license that you can remove by doing this.
Me: How about some high-performance driving classes at a racetrack?
Agent: No, no discount for that either.
Me: So even if I get all this high-speed driving instruction on racetracks, I won't get any discounts, my policy coverage and rates will be exactly the same?
Agent: That's right.
Me: Thank you. <end recording function on my phone>

I think if you approach it by saying you want to go have fun on racetracks driving with M3s and Porsches they are more likely to say they won't cover it. Unfortunately, what the agent says pretty much determines your coverage. So if you couch it right and he says it's covered (and you have some proof) you're in decent shape - otherwise you may be out of luck.

Having said all this - none of this probably has very strong legal standing in real court. I think it will work in most cases where the policy does not have any specific language against HPDEs and if your agent isn't a slimy bastard. It certainly never garantees 100% coverage but it's probably better than nothing.

Jason

 

My experience - the oem tires are excellent on the track and will be more than adequate for a first timer.
Depending on how you use your brakes you could be in trouble. I wasted my rears after two schools, one at a high speed heavy braking track. The rears go first. I am an instructor so I use them much harder than you will. For your first school the oem pads will be fine. No synthetic fluid! ATE blue is good.
Most insurance covers drivers schools but if you wreck you will need lots of documentation proviing it is not a timed event. BTDT.

 

if your stock bridgestones are still safe to run on the street, they're safe to run at the track. toast them at the track day, then replace them afterwards. you'll save some wear on your new high perf tires.

like FC said, OEM pads are fine, just make sure you have enough height.

 

The rear pads only wear out first if you run on track with the VDC/TCS on. I recommend you do keep it on for your first few sessions at least, but try running without it after you've gotten some track time under your belt. You must turn VDC/TCS off for the skid pad!

You must put in high temp (NOT synthetic!) brake fluid. Take it from someone who learned the hard way what it's like to go into a turn and feel the brake pedal go down to the floor. (Not in the Z, in my 944T.) But if you have a hard time finding ATE, Castrol makes a high-temp fluid that's available at most car parts stores. Sorry, I forget what it's called. Someone will come along and remind us. I can't for the life of me understand why anyone who isn't racing (and therefore getting a sponsor to pay for things) would buy $50/quart brake fluid.

Unless your stock tires are down to the cords, I wouldn't recommend putting new tires on for the track. As others have said, you won't be wearing that much off them, so you might as well wear down the old ones instead of the new ones. BTW, I found that the S-03s are not substantially better on track than the RE040s.

As for insurance, read your policy. Ask your agent straight out if driver's education events on a track are covered, explaining clearly that they are not races or competitive events. Once I made that clear, my agent said I was covered. If your agent says you aren't, ask him/her to show you where in the policy it says that. If he/she can't show you, he/she may be B.S.ing to cover the company's butt.

THE most important thing to do before you go out on the track is to leave your ego in the pits. You are there to learn, not prove anything. Listen to your instructors, do what they say. Going fast isn't the most important thing in the beginning. Learning the basics is: the line, keeping your eyes where you want to put the car, and all the other things your instructors will tell you.

And oh, yeah: have fun!

 

Nice post James! You sound like someone who just returned from instructor school! And, had FUN!

I don't have a track model, but even without using any electronic aids, I still toasted the PUNY rear RACE pads after 2 track days.

Motol 600 is also an excellent brake fluid.

As to the 040's........they take a beating and keep on........working. Edges will roll, chunks will disappear, and they get a bit greasy after 10 lops on a hot day. I did my d*mnest trying to trash them last year, but they still work. Not great, but not much worse than when new.

 

Where do you usually track your car? I would assume RA, Blackhawk, or Gingerman since you are from my area. I am currently looking for a Z and will be doing some track events this summer with it. I will probably do most at Gingerman and maybe Autobahn if its open.

 

You guessed right. Last year I did 5 days at Blackhawk, 2 at Road America, & 1 at Gingerman. I'm going to start off this year with 3 days at Mid-Ohio! Then a couple days at the Farm in May. Search through this area Racing/Road. I posted all the events in the area I could find. I think I put it in the Mid-West section too.

See you at the Track!

 

How was your Z at Gingerman? Did you time yourself? I haven't been to RA or Blackhawk, but might sometime soon. My friend tells me Blackhawk is kinda dangerous because of the trees right next to the track and that RA is fairly easy; just look out for the walls. I have 2 friends that are members at Autobahn in Joliet and a business partner of one of the two is a founding member. I am going to try and run a few times there, since it is 30 minutes from my house.

 

The Z was fine at Gingerman.....I had a hard time learning it though.....never quite did either. 3 Z's went, and I think we were all in the low 1:30's. Gingerman DOES have a lot of run-off area......I helped landscape it a few too many times.

I've heard of people being scared of Blackhawk..........I'm not, but I've driven it a lot.

As to RA being easy, yes, if you drive slow(like me). Try the Kink without lifting. I did in my GP Spitfire on slicks, and in my Lotus Elan, but the Z is way fast exiting the carousel, and the OEM 040's don't exactly inspire confidence.

Please, let me know if & when I could try Autobahn. I'd love to check it out!

Come on out to Blackhawk 5/17 with the Lotus Corps....I'll gladly take you for a ride!

Back on subject, Blackhawk is a B*TCH on brakes.

BTW, can I ride your bike?????? I haven't ridden since I sold my '88 CBR600 Hurricane. I still have a M license.

 

i have 10000 miles on my stock brake pads now and am going to Blackhawk in May as a first timer, should i replace them?

I will definitely do the Ate brake fluid though

 

You asked, so I'll relate my experience. I love to utilize ALL my brakes. So, for the Z I installed StopTech's 13" kit, and used CarboTech Panther + pads.. A race pad that I also drove on all summer. Unless you REALLY baby OEM pads at the Farm, they will be toast. If I were you, I would get a set of race pads, not High Performance Street pads.

I never heard of anyone having too much brake.

OK....Maybe this guy:

 

Well, don't forget that the stock Track model rotors list for $600 EACH! The dealer price is $400. So if your race pads eat up your rotors, it's going to cost you.

Also, rotor issues aside, you don't want to do too much street driving on race pads, since they need to be hot to work effectively. If you have to do a panic stop on cold race pads, they might not work well enough to keep you out of trouble.

For both of those reasons, I think running race pads only at the track is the wisest course. (And race pads are also often noisier than street pads.)

 

He,He, He!

Different experiences, different conclusions.......

I'd call my Carbotech Panther +'s a race pad. I NEVER had any trouble stopping with them when cold......but I drive like the old man I am on the street. And I never saw any pad related rotor damage. Heat related yes. OK, they squeak a little.....so what.



Benny, looking forward to meeting you at The Farm.

 

Panther Pluses are a high-end combo pad, not a full-out race pad. They're made to have a wide operating temp range and to be easy on rotors. Carbotech's Web site says they're... On the other hand, Hawks, for instance are reputed to be harder on rotors. (This is not from my own experience, I'm just repeating what I've heard.)

The Ferodo DS3000s are also harder on rotors than the DS2500s, which is why I've stuck the 2500s up to now. But I'm going to bite the bullet and try out some track-only pads this season, starting at Mid-Ohio. I think I'll try the Performance Friction 01s and either the Panthers or a pad from Cobalt Friction. Not sure which one: John has been using the GT Sports, but they have a slightly lower coefficient of friction than the DS2500s. The VRs are much hgher and much more expensive, and only available for the fronts. So the question would be, what to put on the rears?

Too many choices.