DavesZ#3

iTrader: (26)

I have been bitten by the AutoX bug. I’ve been to an AutoX school last month and will be in my first real AutoX this weekend. I have been looking through a lot of the posts here and on some other sites and have been wondering about some stuff.

The subject line says it all – how competitive is the Z? What I’m asking is this – can it be competitive in the B-stock class it belongs in or should I modify it to make it competitive in some other classification.

From what I understand, about the only modifications I can make to it and stay in B-stock would be to add something that comes on another Z model that mine doesn’t have. From what I can tell, that would only be Brembo brakes. Considering what a set off a Track model costs, I doubt they would make much difference for the large chunk of change it would take.

We have limited road course events in the area so I doubt I’ll be racing there anytime soon. I would like to take it out on a road course just to experience it once or twice. I assume that I can get by with stock brakes for that.

If the stock Z is not competitive in its default class, can anybody make some suggestions as to the types of upgrades to consider, what new class would it push the Z into, what are the advantages/disadvantages of moving to that class, etc?

Keep in mind that this is my daily driver so I’m not likely going to be able to make serious modifications to step up to highly modified classes. I could see doing lighter rims, bigger brakes, better tires but they would have to be street-able tires. I can’t see where there’s a lot to be gained from engine mods that would benefit in AutoXing.

Thanks in advance – Dave

jimster716

iTrader: (3)

It depends on the competitiveness of your region and what you want out of it...fun or competition. I run in BSP in my region which unfortunately would include a lot of prepared C4 vettes which are driven by a few national champions including Tom Berry SCCA nat'l champ for like a decade (luckily he runs in PAX locally).

I choose to run for fun even though I am competitive and I can't stand the understeer of the car especially in autocross. I don't want to be number one in B-stock class with a car I don't think is setup particularly well nor fun to drive in autox. Now I'm a good 1.0-1.5 seconds faster than 350Z's in B-Stock with my current setup (primarily coilovers and 275/40/18 tires front and rear) in BSP and the car is a helluva lot more fun to drive. A couple of regional champions (who are also friends) have driven my car and it has impressed them enough to even consider getting the Z but only with my setup as a starting point, they weren't impressed with it when it was stock.

Go to the next event and have some fun. It appears you don't have enough experience to make a judgment call before you even start. After a few events you may come to a decision you're happy with.

DavesZ#3

iTrader: (26)

Thanks for the input jimster. You are correct that I don't have enough experience to make any judgements about the car. I was just curious to hear what some of you experienced guys thought. I doubt I'll ever devote the time and energy to be a top competitor. I'm in it for the fun and experience plus I just love this car! I don't want to finish last every time though!

roark

iTrader: (2)

I completely agree with Jimster about the car in stock form having way too much understeer in lower speed cornering, like Auto-X.

On a road coarse, the balance is very good stock, but for Auto-X I quickly moved to BSP with suspension mods to make the car more neutral in the slow, tight Auto-X courses. I was constantly getting my a$$ handed to me by S2000s in B Stock.

I have Mich. Sport Cups (265/35 18s) and Stillen anti-roll bars front and back that I've set to my liking, and now I'm consistantly 1.75 to 2.25 sec. faster than my B Stock brothers with similar driving experience.

I agree that competition is tough in BSP, but I have a fighting chance here, and find that I'm on equal footing with guys that have way over $50K in car and mods.

With all that said, I have seen substantial improvement from my brothers still running B-Stock now that they are learning how the Z needs to be driven. I would suggest to anyone to run a full season in stock form, learn the natural dynamics of the car, then make a decision on what you want to do for the second season.

jackwhale

Dave: I am not clear about all the details, but to remain in a stock class you can only add upgrade items that were sold with your 'model' (not 'make' of car). Thus Brembos couldn't be put on a non-track model. This has been debated by SCCA and I think this is the current interpretation of the rulebook. Seems picky but that is what I have heard.

The Z is a fun autocross car. With autocross tires and wheels, an experienced driver can come close to the S2000 and M3 cars which are also in BS.

del105

iTrader: (4)

For stock class you can add catback, FSB, strut insert, and any size dot legal r comp that fits on stock size wheel or after market wheel that is the same size as stock with an offset that is within +or- 5 mm from stock.

and no I don't think the Z is a great B-stock car at a national level at least not with the S2000 still in the class.

What I would like to see is people petition SEB to allow the 350Z to compete in the new ST class along side the EVO STi and e36 M3. I think it would fit in that class almost perfectly.

phoenixZ33

You are allowed to change parts with other trim levels, but you have to do *everything*. ie. Since he has a Performance model car, if he wanted to do the Brembos, he'd have to change everything else that a track model has and he doesn't. So wheels, brakes, spoilers (if he doesn't have them) and whatever other upgrades/changes are specific to the Track model. I ran into this with my car as it's an Enthusiast and I wanted to run 18s.. I would have to add VDC and the tire pressure monitor to make it legal with stock 18s. You have to essentially build a different trim level car like it would come from the factory. Now this all depends on how strict your region is.. i doubt anyone would notice the difference between a Performance and an Enthusiast model, but if you rolled up on Brembos without the track model wheels, you'd probably get called on.

IMO there aren't any upgrades on higher levels (especially over a Performance) that will make much of a different autocrossing. Good pads (NISMO etc) on stock brakes will work as well as Brembos will.

My region while having huge classes for just about everything, has a rather wimpy B Stock class, like 2-3 cars. If your region has a street tire class (using different PAX scores) you can always do that. My last event had 15 cars ranging from E46 M3s, a handful of STis, S2000s, an RX8, Vette and a handful of Street Modified cars. While BS Open is an all out time battle, meaning whoever in BS Open has the fastest time wins; while times are important in street tire of course, the PAX factor changes everything so you can "compete" with faster and slower cars.. typically they are very competitive classes. Just an option if B Stock doesn't float your boat.

I haven't seen a Z in my region prepared and driven by a national caliber driver so I can't say if it's the all out best car or not.. doubtful, but the autocross nerds/experts all went out and bought S2000s, Z06s and WRXs. Oh well, at least my car looks better!

DavesZ#3

iTrader: (26)

Thanks guys for some really great responses. After I've had some time to digest all this I'l probably be back with more questions or comments.

Tonight's the wife's birthday so I'm not going to get to spend any time online here until tomorrow.

Thanks again - Dave

jackwhale

Phoenix: Yes at the end of the day. no matter what our time was.....our cars look better!

BA Cutler

I think the Z should be fairly competitive in BS. Is it going to be a BS class dominator?... probably not. The NWR SCCA Solo II has a multi national title holder running his Z in SM1... he laid down the Fast Time of the Day at their last event. I'm thinking he knew what he was buying when he selected the Z, it's his daily driver and the mods he has made are within reason from a dollar standpoint.

But I agree with the others who have rung it with their opinions, get to know the Z in stock form first... add the obvious stuff that make it a better daily driver AND A/X'er (Konis, exhaust, as soon as you want)... then move on from there... maybe next year... maybe next week... you'll want race rubber. Which is as good a reason as any to buy some upgraded wheels for the street (or race wheels if you get way out of control)... see how easy it is to just totally lose control? Seriously, the Konis set on soft are something you'll enjoy every mile you drive... and the exhaust... it's just too tempting.

You don't own the BS class toad, you are going to have trouble with a well driven S2000... but there are plenty of the other kind of S2000 drivers within striking distance... (picture a lion after a bunch of weaker, but more fleet a foot prey).

Brian

ADMAN

iTrader: (9)

I did very well in B-Stock and ended up winning my class...even though I just got the car and only competed half the year. However, I'm a long-time STS competitor. So...

I think you will do fine as long as you get better rubber. Otherwise, forget it. The understeer is terrible compared to other cars in it's class. However, if you're a good driver, you can work it to your advantage depending on the course.

You can modify your car a little more and move up to BSP. However, everyone is right: You'll then be competing with C4 Vettes and plethora of other competetive vehicles.

Face it, they didn't build the Z for AutoX. It's a track car...

MannishBoy

iTrader: (1)

Right now, the S2K is the dominant car in BS, but a properly set up car can be competitive, especially at the local level. Last year, Carter Thompson finished 6th in nationals with his Z, and they made some improvements after that.

Other than the S2K, in BS, the Z is very competitive. If all the S2Ks get moved to AS next year as one of the rumors floated around, it should be interesting (the 2004s are already in AS).

I'm just having fun. I've won an event or so, but since Carter and his dad started running pro class locally, that makes that a bit easier to do

mpowers

iTrader: (7)

check out www.solo2.org there a very nice following of a 350Z (one of or members) whom is running bs very well.

DavesZ#3

iTrader: (26)

I had a feeling the S2K's were going to be a problem. One of the instructors from the recent AutoX school drives an S2K. Here was introduced as one of the top ranked drivers in the state or region. Seeing him drive made that quite clear. Looking thru some of the race results over the last couple of months has him at the top of just about every even in BS.


I have seen the www.solo2.org site and the Z featured there. I'm surprised that it would be in BS considering the amount of mods he seems to have made to it.

Thanks again for the comments. I have a lot to learn but as always, MY350Z seems to be one of the best places to start.

roark

iTrader: (2)

My region (Old Dominion - www.odr-scca.org) has decided to allow the 350z in the new STU category, and a few guys here have just started to run in this. I think it's an excellent place for the 350z if your region is willing to make the exception.

The exception comes because of the 4 seat rule in ST. The STS2 subcategory makes the exception so that Honda Del Sols and Fieros can run in that sub-cat, but we can't go their due to our engine size. STU has unlimited displacement for NA cars, but makes no provision for a two-seater.

Jux2p0ze

iTrader: (1)

I'd like to add my first autox in my Z to this post. I think again, that it depends largely on your local area, but we have a guy in Atlanta that does really well on a Track Z w/ aftermarket tires setting barely 0.4-0.5 seconds consistently behind the leader. As for me and the other rookie Z driver in performance and touring setups, we didn't do bad taking I think #4 and #5 today. After today, I definitely understand how much understeer there is and that stock tires tend to heat up quickly allowing for more slide than some people are used to. Great for drifting though

phoenixZ33

Well I just got back from an autoX today and had pretty good results. I ran a 45.10, while the top A-Stock (consistent top 10 PAX overall out of 200) S2000 with 275 Hoosiers and Penske shocks ran a 43.9X. Today's course was a little dirty to maybe that helped reduce the gap between street tires and race tires, but if I can hang with that guy's S2000 next month (different course) like I did today, i'm going to Hoosiers because I think the car should be killer in BS Open.

I am running 245/45ZR17 Falken Azenis on all four corners now and it's awesome.. very good balance and easy to get the car to rotate if needed. It still understeers a tad bit in slow corners, but until I got the tire pressures set right it was oversteering all over the course. There is a bigger event (bigger street tire class) in July that will confirm or diminish my thoughts from today, but I was pretty impressed with the Z.. pretty sure I won the street tire class, I won't know for a few days till they post the results.

FritzMan

I've just completed my 3rd event this season after 5 years off from Solo2 where I previously ran a twin turbo RX-7 fairly competitively for one season. This is also my first summer with the 350Z so I have a learning curve to adjust to.

This season I'm keeping street tires to get the most out of setup and getting back up to speed. For setup, check my sig. In Canada we have a Super Stock class between stock and Prepared (total 6 prep points allowed).

Each event result for me has been better. Out of 7 runs yesterday, I had FTD until the 6th run (where I got beat by 2/10ths). That includes bettering a multitude of R compound equipped Subarus, gutted Civic, an experienced RA-1 equipped S2000 and A032 twin turbo RX-7 (not the best Solo2 tires, but still better than my Kumho MX). I've been within a couple seconds of a regular experienced STI running R compounds. All our runs are typically 70 seconds, where I run 100% 2 gear (even a few 3rd gear spots on some courses), with a sprinkling of tight sections (ie: 1st gear for the S2000). Probably my best standard for improvement is that I've gradually been getting a larger margin on the Toyo RA-1 equipped S2000 (from 2/10ths the first event to over 2 seconds yesterday).

Obviously this doesn't really mean squat without knowing the driver skill associated to these cars (I've only quoted results from multi year experienced drivers though, not the newbie 911s and E46 M3s I've beat ). Last event we had a regional invite with National caliber runners from Quebec coming down. I won't lie, I got my @ss handed to me, but I still managed to stay within a few seconds of fully prepped Type Rs - and I knew there was room for improvement in my driving. Being only my 9-12th Solo2 runs *ever* in the car, my experimental setup of med front and rear sways was not ideal for me. IMO, I gained a second this week just with better driving and setup (full stiff front and 4 psi pressure increase all round with front being 3psi more than rear).

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I find the 350Z a very good setup for Solo2 - and once I get a little more seat time and run a set of 275/40 R compounds and Konis next season, I fully expect the car to be *very* competitive. IMO, the best attributes for the car is the torque and balance. Probably the worse characteristics are its heaft resulting in loss of nimbleness and sway control.

Vlad

Autox is mainly about driver's skills. How do I say it... first work on technique, than, later, worry about car setup. Stock Z is not so bad for novice autoxer. If you'll start doing mod after mod to the car you'll never get to actually mastering driving skills on given setup.

christoc

iTrader: (2)

I a big fan of playing in stock classes. A nice setup with some R-Compounds, Konis, and possibly a front bar car do amazing things to a car, assuming the driver can drive.

If you start modifying the car it will always be "the car isn't prepped" or the "car isn't setup properly". I've got Konis on my car, and run 245 Kumhos locally, out of town I'll be running 275 Hoosiers. I'll probably try out a few bars before nationals, but I haven't yet decided how I'm going to do that.

I'll have a lot more info on autocrossing the 350z up on my site over the next few days. Hopefully it'll prove helpful to those of you who are new, and old, in the sport.