daveh

iTrader: (9)

I would like to put some harnesses in my car for my track days and am just starting to research some available options for the Z. What are people out there using? Safety is my biggest concern (which even poses the question of should one even use a harness without a rollbar).

I know there is a harness bar by Avalon and a board member makes one also. My previous cars have never required any type of bar installation, I've always been able to use the good old ralley harness from schroth attached the stock rear seatbelt posts.

Comments? Suggestions?

EnthuZ

iTrader: (2)

If you are going to install competition harnesses correctly in the 350Z, you have few choices. Either a well designed harness bar, or a roll bar with a properly located attachment bar is a must.

Being held securely in the seat during extreme chassis loading at track days is the largest benefit. No more need to support your body by having a death grip on the steering wheel.

As to which bar to purchase, I recommend the one that has been approved by an organization that holds MANY HPDE events nationally.

Redline350Z

Check out www.bcrltd.net for the bar I use... I don't think I'd hit the track without my BCR bar and 6-point harnesses again! They make a ton of difference - even more than I expected.

ADMAN

iTrader: (9)

And, not being able to move when you car flips over is a "death grip" you wish you had given more thought about before installing a harness bar.


My $.02

tomzz

If you are focusing on safety, then it is my opinion that you need to install a roll bar - Period! Nissan should have a roll bar as an option on the Track Model. The roll bar will be 80% of the value add for safety. The harnesses will add the other 20% of a safety upgrade. Some suggest harnesses without a roll bar decreases your safety position in a 350Z.

I worked with Kirk Racing in Birmingham to do a second generation 350Z roll bar that allows both seats to travel without leaving the passenger sitting the windshield. They have pics of this roll bar and would be happy to tell you how reasonable they can send you one. They are sport car roll bar experts. They ship dozens out of thier factory every week as mail order sales for self installs. The install is as simple as the un-install will be if you sell the car. They are sports car racers and did a very good job balancing the bar position to the bar above your head and to maximize seat travel. They do vettes, miatas, and RX7 and probaly RX8's by now. They are a top notch company. Very good folks.

Also, this roll bar was very close in price to some of the harness bars I found for the Z.

If track safety is your objective it seems a roll bar and harness combo is the way to go. The roll bar/harness combo is the best upgrade I made on my Z. J C Whitney offers an inexpensive yet very attractive black naugahide padded roll bar cover kit. Makes the whole install look very sharp. My wife says I look sexy in my roll bar!! Do a roll bar!!!

The real fun deal is to go a day early to a HPDE at the new Barber Motorsports Park in Birmingham and have them pop your roll bar in. Barber is the most beautiful road course in the country. Get there for a life time experience. We had drivers come from NY at a HPDE last spring.

Good luck - safety mods are #1 You are asking the right questions.

EnthuZ

iTrader: (2)

ADMAN, would you please share what safety equipment you have installed?


tomzz, not to sure I'd want someone to "Pop a roll bar in". Shouldn't it be mounted to something stronger than the sheetmetal floorpan?

BTW...I'd love to check out Barber Motorsports Park in Birmingham

Redline350Z

Certainly there are situations when the harness bar would be more dangerous than just using the stock seat belt. If this were a track-only car, you better believe I'd have a full roll cage. But shouldn't I also remove the airbags from the car because of the high speeds I see at the track? Wouldn't want to hit a wall at the end of a straight, slamming into the steering wheel a split second before the airbag explodes into my chest and kills me.

On the other hand, if I had a cage in the car, that would give me lots of nifty places to bang my head against when I'm not wearing a helmet on the street. I'm far more likely to get rear-ended on the "expressway" (a.k.a. parking lot) at rush hour than I am to flip the car at the track. It's also harder to make a case for getting warranty coverage with a roll bar that's welded into the car than it would be with a harness bar that can be quickly and easily removed before I head to the dealership. Ditto for the day that (heaven forbid!) I decide to sell the Z.

It's all about compromise and calculated risk. Given that 99% of my miles are street miles, I choose to use the harness bar. I drive at about 7/10ths on the track - I'm not out to set any records, I'm just out to have fun. It's easier to maintain control of the car with harnesses than with the stock belt. It's a lot more comfortable too. I didn't install the harness bar to protect me in the event of a collision or rollover, I installed it to help me maintain control of the car. If I lose control of the car, I'm f---ed no matter which side of the car faces up. I understand this, and I'm willing to accept it.

If safety is your primary concern, by all means install a quality roll bar or cage and be done with it. But if there are other factors that play into your decision, I think a harness bar is worth considering too. Just think it over and make an informed decision, and I'm sure you'll be happy with whatever you decide to use next time you're at the track... as long as it's not a bungee cord wrapped around your rear strut tower brace.

ADMAN

iTrader: (9)

Let's just say no one ever plans on rolling their car...

Redline350Z

Heck, I didn't even plan to track my car...

RobSan

These are a preferred brand for many Corvette guys, and they now make them for the 350Z: http://www.hardbar.net/page_350ZX.htm

daveh

iTrader: (9)

Everyone has made some great points here. In a way it comes down to the issue whether or not the car is going to be a street car or a track car. You really can’t always have the best of both worlds (suspension comes to mind on this point). As much as I like the added safety of a cage or roll bar, one part of me has a hard time installing it in my brand new (perfectly zaino’d) car that I commute to work in every day.

Tomzz, how much alteration to the car has to be done to install the kirk-racing roll bar? I am 6’1”. Will I be able to put the seat all the way back? Do I have to cut into the carpet or panels? How much of my precious cargo space will I loose out of my trunk? I’ll have to give them a call to get some info. I had to laugh when I read the comment about getting warranty work done. They commented about my pop charger at my last oil change, I can image going in for warranty work and showing up with with a cage

The available bars look good to me for the fact they some allow full seat travel with little alteration needed to the car to install. I’ve unfortunately seen one put to use at a local track event. It did its job as the Z went into the tire wall head on. As with my schroth harness in my last car, I always worried what would happen in the event of a rollover. Granted modern car’s roofs are very strong, and it would take a large impact for one to cave in, but the bottom line is that it could happen given the speeds traveled at race tracks. It’s a tough decision.

On another note, I've also spoken with people that have rolled multiple times in their cars and were injured mostly because their stock belts didn't hold them in. A harness bar would have been better in those cases.

EnthuZ

iTrader: (2)

That bar has been availible for over a year now, through.....D*mn, I forget there name........


There is a MUCH better choice!

tomzz

as per your question about the install implications of the Kirk Roll Bar.

The vertical posts mount with plates and bolts to the bottom of the floor behind the seats. So it take 2" of seat travel. The back brace posts bolt to the car with plates as well. It will be very easy to take out. It required the removal of 2 squares of carpet 2" x 2" ea in the back.

Space? My wife is the packer and she says the roll bar does not really take any space out of the back.

There is another roll bar made for the Z that mounts part way up the side wall and has the roll loop bar behind the drivers head, not over it. It does not take away from any seat travel.

I chose the Kirk bar due to its maximum safety design since it has the roll loop directly over my head, and at 5"6" a small loss of seat travel did not impact my use of the Z. The Kirk is also easy to install for a padding system that offers the same level of head padding as other interior structures for regular street/highway use.

As most have suggested here, it is a matter fo personal choice as to the level of safety you desire when you track your Z. I am in the outdoor recreation business and my first consideration of any activity is safety. So a roll bar is SOP in my mind for any track use.

If you like car esthics, I have gotten the most compliments on the look of my roll bar with its black naugahide cover than any other performance modification on my Z.

Any safety investment is usually to protect you against something somebody else will do, not something you will do. I think this is very true for track use of your Z, even DE events. I have a roll bar to most likely protect me from what somebody else will do to me on the track.

I do not have a problem with rolling into my dealer with a roll bar. They asked if I race my Z? I told them "No, I use my PERFORMANCE MODEL Z for Performance driving education classes, just like the model name." Have not had a problem after that even with feathered tire replacement.

You will decide how much risk you want to take and you will decide how much protection you want. There is no real data base on DE track use safety for roll overs, just andectodal data to make a decsion on (like our experiences). It is a free country for roll bar decisions, and now its your turn.

Good luck!

daveh

iTrader: (9)

Do you have a pic of your rollbar installed?

Eagle1

iTrader: (2)

I use my car as a daily driver. The name of the game is the compromises or trade offs that one is willing to make to have adrenaline pumping performance on the track, and civility on the street. Naturally, that is quite a personal thing for each individual so there is no single right way to do it. (Some folks will opt for an automatic transmission on their daily driver because of traffic, while others think nothing of rowing through the gears on the stop and go challenge to and from work).

For the trade off on safety, however, I think a strong case can be made that there is no such thing as a trade off that is justifiable.
If you are going to put a harness system in....do the roll bar please! There should be no warranty issue, it has nothing to do with the motor or the drivetrain. Nor should it have a material adverse effect on the resale value of the car...this is a sports vehicle and you have added safety to it. The harness system is then an extra that they buyer can have or not have to use.

The best rollbar is going to be a heavy duty tubular steel job. You can go with a full cage, with the side door bars, but that creates real issues for practical street use and is rarely done for a dual use car. Even with a "swing out" door bar that eliminates having to hoist your bod out the window, (the hinge and detent pin arrangement is clever but not sanctioned for some race associations, so I am assuming you only do HPDE and not racing) it is a pain. A second option is to keep the A pillar front bar and front eyebrow bar along the roofline at the top of the windscreen, but have a formed or curved connection from the B pillar that drops low and then runs parallel or along the rocker panel to connect to the front vertical bar. Again, for a street car, this is probably too much intrusion. And you do have an issue of bonking your noggin on the bar that runs along the roofline above the driver and passenger side windows....and padding or no that is a nuisance too. A third option is to dispense with the A pillar and eyebrow, and therefore the above the door bars, keep the six floor mounting points (forward rocker panel and rearward kick back bars) and the behind the seats roofline roll bar.

A custom welded six point roll bar with harness bar, painted and installed, should cost somewhere in the range of $800 to $1,200 depending on the type of steel etc. that you use, from a guy that knows what he is doing. IF you want it bolted and not welded, there is more work involved so that might cost you up to 50% more...but you can take it back to stock if that is what you want to be able to do (except you will have holes in the carpet!).

Your head and neck cannot hold the car up, and going through life as a vegetable, or not at all, should you roll over in a harness and the roof collapse............makes it cheap in perspective. The harness is a great safety tool, used properly. I will not wear one in a car without a roll bar. Not even on the street. Just one man's view.

jun14scr

iTrader: (1)

does anybody else think harness bars are overpriced.

what could they cost to make, seriously.

i'm thinking about getting my friends dad to make me a custom one for the 350z. if anyone is interested, i'm sure i can hook you up for a good price.

daveh

iTrader: (9)

I just spoke with Kirk Racing about their roll bar. It costs less than the harness bar but the shipping is over $100. I'm still undecided as to which one I will end up with.

daveh

iTrader: (9)

kirkracing has sent me some pics. They were very helpful.
I was thinking though, in the event of a front impact, would this be as strong as a harness bar which is attached to the stock seat belt posts? It would seem that the bars that are attached to the wheel well area would recieve most of the impact. An area that is not crash rated.

tomzz

Glad the Kirk folks sent along some shots. Are they of a silver chrome Z? If so I took some shots tonite showing how the harnesses attach, the details of the bolt in plates, how the pad/cover kit looks and how the back rests fit back into the roll bar loop. Let me know if these additional shots would be helpful to the ones Kirk Racing sent you. I will dig up a 15 yr old to show me how to send them from my file to you.

By the by, I was reading the fine print on your last message and it reads "HPDE Instructor". Well that would seem to seal the deal. Call Kirk tomorrow and get your roll bar in, call JC Whitney to get your black pad and cover kit. As a HPDE instructor is it not incumbent upon you to be the example fo maximum safety?

Actually, I do underytsnd that at 6' 1" you need to know the bar and you will fit. I can tell you that when you get strapped into your harness and have that roll bar over your head, it is a very good feeling when you get waved out onto the track.

Good luck

daveh

iTrader: (9)

They basically sent me larger versions of what's on their website. This thread has some better pics.

https://my350z.com/forum/attachment....&postid=411364

Can anyone comment on this question?
It would seem like in the event of a frontal impact, the mounting point shown below would take most of the brunt of the force. Would this hold??