Since posting what I said before I have been looking around on the net and have come to that realization.

I am actually leading towards the STOPTECH's now.

I'm also not sure that going with the AP 6 piston kit is such a good idea after all because then I would have to get 18" wheels and I am not sure I like the idea of adding all that Unsprung weight from both the 14.25" rotors and 18" wheels.

Sure that setup would look better but I'm after performance on the circuit not looks.

My only concern is what I would go for on the rear if I went with the 13 inch kit by STOPTECH. There is no way that the base model rears are going to hold up so I’ll need to get new rears as well.

 

Nice to see the responses - Jason Bourne's in particular. After debating this back and forth, and reading as much as I could about it, I went with the StopTech. I'm waiting for delivery and praying they get here middle of the week - I've got VIR next weekend

It really is a tough call. I do believe that StopTech makes a great package - everyone raves about the componentry, and they do publish more technical data about their offerings than other folks.

However... The fact that Wilwood sells parts and people put together the pieces to create a package does not inherently make that offering worse. It pains me that there isn't someone with as many track days as Jason Bourne (on StopTech's) on one of the Wilwood kits (or that such person posted/participated here). The fact that Russell's kit gives you a larger rotor was appealing to me (this is to fit under seventeen inch wheels, not eighteens). Unfortunately, the metallurgy is mystery - we don't know who makes them, or how they'll hold up. More importantly, Russell has them made for his kit. Translation - what happens if he goes away? He assured me that someone else has the drawings and in the event of his untimely demise they would be made available, but that's not exactly the product support I'm looking for. The fact that they were SL6 6-pot's is, IMO, a good thing. I believe this caliper is *STILL* fairly widely used in motorsports (a certain defunct truck series was definately running them two years ago).

StopTech's protestations to the contrary, I don't think the caliper flex 'problem' exists - I'm sure the objective data they publish is accurate, I just don't personally think it makes a rats a** bit of difference. Perhaps at some mythical drivers level (ie, any professional racer - someone who makes a living at it) it would be discernable. Maybe. For the rest of us mortals, there are so many more important places to be making up time on the track so as for this to be a non-issue.

So - summation? Russell's kit to me looks to be a good offering. Since no one with significant track experience (less than ten events is not significant) can support their survivability and performance claims, I personally won't risk it. I will say that Russell offered me a money-back guarentee via email to use the kit for one event, and he would take it back if I wasn't satisfied. I'm just not brave enough to do that. The fact that he couldn't take MasterCard was the nail in the coffin. My pessimistic side says, 'What happens if there is a problem, and you need to contest the charge?' Good luck fighting it through PayPal. No can do.

Evolution's newer generation caliper offering also looks like a fair choice. I will say in talking to them on the phone, I didn't get a real warm fuzzy as to any signficant engineering going into the kit, although I'll be the first to say that may just be a matter of whom I spoke to - there may be knowledgable people there, they just weren't on the phone. They claimed in some post their's was the 'Official' Wilwood kit. I still don't know what exactly that means. I didn't realize Wilwood endorsed or assembled kits.

StopTech basically won by default. No, I didn't seriously consider Stillen's AP setup - the fact that they only show drilled rotors as an option for the 13" kit coupled with their 'legendary' customer service eliminated them immediately. AP clearly makes great stuff. I just won't buy anything from Stillen. Non-oem Brembo's are just too much money (can't find 'em used), and Endless/Mu/GREX/etc are posuer brands in my opinion. The fact that they're used on drift cars is not something to brag about - nothing wrong with the activity (its not racing), its just not real tough on brakes.

Absolute bottom line? My opininon - if you have a non-Track model Z, and you're having brake issues on the track, there are really only three choices.

1) Find and buy some dumb sod's OEM Brembo's. Unless you're running BIG R compounds, count your track time in months per year, and set lap records, they're good enough. It sounds like the addition of StopTech's rotor replacements makes them good enough for anyone but joe hotshoe with some kind of FI. Even at $2500 (high end of sales prices from what I've seen) for all four corners, its about 20% more than aftermarket for just a front kit. Plus, its OEM - you know the master cylinder and caliper piston area are matched.

2) StopTech. Not having looked too closely at the 14" kit (since I'm keeping 17" wheels/rubber), I don't know if that is a worthwhile investment. The 13" kit seems from a number of proficient folks to be at least as effective as OEM brembo's. Probably slightly more (given more mass of larger rotor). I haven't read of a single complaint of doing just the 13" front kit negatively impacting brake balance. I'm putting a lot of faith in this aspect of their engineering effort. I will be hella pissed if this faith is misplaced.

3) Other. Russell. Evolution. Stillen/AP. IMO, more because of lack of published engineering work going into these kits than any other reason. If Russell had posted on his website how he derived his caliper piston selection, and more detailed info on his rotors, I would have done it. Having customers with real track time/mileage on the kits willing to speak up about it would have helped as well. Someone telling me they were 25mph faster down the straight because of the brakes - not helping. Strictly from a physics standpoint, all other things being equal, the larger diameter rotor has more mass (assuming similar construction techniqes etc), and should therefore resist fade better. Don't bother beating me up on this one - obviously, nothing is ever 'all other things being equal.'

Long diatribe, I know - sorry about that. But people are spending an awful lot of money on these setups, and if this thread has shown me anything, it is that very few people have a clue as to what they are buying. To have multiple vendors here selling BBK, and have two, maybe three folks chime in with actual track experience is a rude awakening to me as to who these kits are being sold to.

As always, YMMV, IMHO, and AYFKM.

ahm

 

Nice post, I have to say that you have really helped me out a lot in trying to make my own decision and for that I would like to say thanks.

Maybe once you have had a chance to use your knew setup you could post a review?

Hope your choice works out for you and nice to see someone doing some substantial research and not just jumping into anything.

 

Amolaver,
Good post on your thought process. I can assure you that you will not be disappointed in our 332mm kit. I run this kit on my own personal car, and track it 1-2 times per month. You need to be very cognizent of pad selection, and pad and rotor bed-in. If you are, you will be rewarded with outstanding performance. They far surpass the factory Brembos in terms of heat capacity in the front. Because the Z uses so much rear brake though, you will burn through rear pads quickly with the front only kit. I don't mind doing so, because they are cheap and easy to swap out. If you don't want to deal with rear pad swaps, then our new 2 piston rear is the way to go.

At any rate, have faith! You will not be disappointed with our products, and StopTech will be here to support you should you need it. I don't think you will consider us a default after you've used our kit for a while.

 

Not to change the subject, but since you (J Ritt) brought it up... What is the recommended process for bedding in pads when swapping from track-specific to street units?

In my particular case, I will be receiving the kit, and putting in Pagid Orange immediately - I will follow the soap/water cleaning of the rotors, and the bedding procedure for them. After the HPDE, I want to swap in the Axxis street pads, which won't have been bedded. So - two scenarios I'm asking about. 1) After the rotors and track pads have been bedded/used, how to properly bed the new street pads (any rotor prep?)? 2) After driving on the street pads for some period of time, return to HPDE and swap in the Orange's again - again, any rotor or pad bedding procedures necessary?

ahm

 

Try getting the 14" rear hot enough to actually need track pads. It's just not going to happen (even at competition level).

I ran my kit at Buttonwill (very technical track) all day long and my rears worked great. Car squated on braking, rears never locked up, car performed perfectly.

 

Skrill, you're right, the rears hardly get used.

BUT.......some people like more rear bias than Stoptech conservatively uses. They are aware of the situation, and I heard they are working on a change.........Wouldn't you like to stop even BETTER!

 

Enthuz,
There is no intended change for the rear 355mm kit for the Z. We design our kits to optimally use all 4 wheels to stop the car...no more, no less. We would never have a car more rear biased than front however, since this is an inherently unsafe/unstable condition. As Skrill said, you will never need to worry about a pad change on the rear 355mm kit. You'll never get the rear hot enough on that kit to go outside the operating zone of the Porsche OE pad we ship with that kit.

Our other solution is our 2 piston billet rear...the one we developed for World Challenge race cars. For the Z, it comes mated to a 328x28mm rotor. You can combine it with either of our existing 355mm or 332mm front Z kits. It uses the same pad shape as the Track Model rear Brembo caliper. The biggest benefit of the smaller rear is weight savings...about 7 lbs. per corner.

Either way, you can't lose.

 

J Ritt,

Speaking of balance, are your front kits compatible with both the brembo rears AND the non-brembo rears. I was never asked which model Z I owned when I ordered the front kit, so I assumed your kits are compatible with any OEM rear brakes. I have a set of rear 350Z OEM Brembos I was able to get a hold of, and will replace my non-brembos rears soon.

 

dnguyent,
If you ran the Brembos in the rear, we would have to give you a special piston size in the front...not a problem.

 

Hey EnthuZ, how are you? I'm very busy with work and haven't had much time to spend on the internet.

I did build and design (as part of a team) Princeton's first ever Formula SAE entry back when I was in college. It weighed 350 lbs (without bodywork), had 140 hp and 12" wide Hoosier slicks at all corners. The thing was a monster.

Amolaver - congrats on your purchase. I'm sure you will enjoy the brakes. Two things that I would add:
- Pad choice could still be an issue for you (it has been for a lot of people). If you do have problems (uneven deposits, etc...) I recommend the Performance Friction 01 compound. I tried 5-6 different pads before I settled on the PF01 and it has been pretty much flawless for me. I run Carbotechs in the rear (stock brakes) and even though they don't last long, they don't fade, are cheap and are kind to the rotors
- You may still have some slight heat issues (particularly if you run Hoosiers and fast lap times). I use up a set of rotors per season and cooked the piston boots my first time out. I've found that with air ducts and titanium pad backing plates I have no issues (although still need rotors every 1.5-2 seasons). Most people don't need the ducts with the 13" stoptech kit, but it certainly doesn't hurt. I would try without first and see how things go. You definitely shouldn't have any fade (as long as your pads and fluid are good, of course).

 

Jason - thanks for the tips. I ran Pagid Orange this weekend at VIR (two heavy brake zones / lap) and definately got uneven deposits when they got hot. A couple of miles on the street, and they went away, but I ASSume the deposits come about when the pad starts to get outside of its temp range. So... I'll probably deal with the shudder on the next couple of track days until these are shot, and then give the PF01 a shot.

Freakishly enough, I've got a set of Hawk HPS in the back (stock non-brembo), and although they do wear pretty quickly, I haven't had fade or other unpleasantness from them. Pyro showed peaks of ~450F on the rears and fronts ~600F after cool down 1/2 lap and pulling back into the lot.

No fade to speak of, although I believe I've had my first incident of pad knockback. Coming off the climbing esses @ VIR, I routinely was giving the brakes a dab on the left (turn 10, South Bend I believe) before the downhill and two tight rights (Oaktree). The first few times, I got more pedal travel than I was expecting. A light tap while accelerating out of the last S (right hander) to move the pads back tight to the rotors, and a second application to get the nose to pull in a little worked great.

Which Carbotech pad are you running in the back? Also curious about the titanium backing plates and ducting (are you using Zeckhausen's offering, or did you fab something up?). I didn't have any fade, but I'm running Falken Azenis currently. With R compounds next season, I will be a lot more likely to get them that hot. The Azenis weren't cutting it running with race-prepped 993's, SuperCup cars, and a handful of track-prepped Mustangs. I saw two of them on the portable dyno over 315whp - my poor Z got 227whp. I'd run right up their pipes through the climbing esses, but after Oak Tree onto the straight, they'd just walk away... The SuperCup cars of course just ran away, period. Interestingly a 997S was keeping up with 996GT3's - that new car is impressive!

 

amolaver -

Pad knockback can be pretty significant on this car. Once you've learned where it will happen, a little pre-emptive tap is all you need though - as you have found out...

I have Dave Z's titanium backing plates, the ducts I am running are a modified version of Nick's (NTech) duct kit. The rear pads are Carbotech's Panter Plus. I wouldn't run them on the front but on the rear they seem to work just fine. I only get 4-6 days out of them but they are cheap and kind on the rotors (plus I can leave them in between events).

My brakes are really well sorted now. I really have no problems and the maintenance is minimal. Of course, that just means I'm unearthing some of the other shortcomings of the Z on the track (like insufficent PS fluid cooling) but that's to be expected when one drives their street car on racetracks Overall, I've found this car to be pretty impressive out of the box - the lap times I get out of it still kind of surprise me sometimes.

 

Great - I found Zeckhausen's Ti backing plates, and I've seen the NTech duct kit. I'll look into that, although I recall it was expensive (~$300?). I'm guessing I can fab something for a lot less given some time (now that winter is really arriving).

The PF01 is an expensive pad! Any suggestions on sourcing?

I've also been very impressed with the car out of the box. Despite the complaints about major understeer, I find the car to be very well balanced - some understeer, yes, but certainly not terrible. Even the stock suspension is well sorted, if soft, for the track. At full tilt, it is clearly getting overwhelmed (too much wheel travel), but no ugly surprises, and very forgiving.

How are you handling the PS cooling situation? I believe Nismo offers a PS cooler, although its probably cheaper just to build your own around a core from Summit or Jegs.

One thing I am curious about is oil/water temps. Have you done any monitoring of them? Any insight? Diff/Trans temps?

ahm

 

I'll jump in here and add my 2 cents on the PS boiling situation. I boiled my PS fluid heavily after a dozen track days (hearing a cavitating, banging sound from under the hood every time you turn the wheel at speed definitely gets your attention!)

I went with the Nismo PS cooler to address this. I could have gone a little cheaper and fabricated something else, but at $120 for the Nismo part it made sense just to go with it. I've had 6 track days since it was installed, and I've had no more problems since. It's essentially just a longer cooling piece than the stock one, but it seems to be working well so far (and if nothing else it's good peace of mind against my power steering going out in the middle of a turn.) I'm sure that it would be just as easy to build your own, though.

Another note I'll add here is that I've also experienced knockback with my StopTechs. Like others, I've found that a quick kick on the brake pedal before a heavy breaking zone helps to line everything up and give me that solid pedal feel, but I really wish that there was a permanent solution for this. Does anyone have any ideas for a solution, or at least a better way to deal with it than just double-tapping my pedal before heavy breaking zones?

Gary

 

That's partially why I stick with the Cobalt VR pads...

I need to get a PS cooler since I've boiled my reservoir over several times. Not sure how much a DIY core would cost, but since the Nismo PS coolers are no more than $120 for all the hardware, I'm inclined to stick with that.

I don't think you're going to have too many problems with coolant or oil temps here on the East Coast. Only people I know that have really run into issues (other than the Grand Am cars) are the people running in 100+ degree weather in the desert.

One thing you can cook is your diff fluid, and you should probably look to replace it after a few track events. I've managed to puke out diff fluid on a few occassions which left a welcoming mess underneath the rear of my car...

 

Interesting info re: the Nismo PS cooler - I knew there was an offering, but I don't/didn't know what it consisted of. Any chance Gary you could take a couple of snap shots and post them? Curious what it looks like.

John - I know you've got factory Brembo's, so you probably don't know, but I'll ask anyway - do the Cobalt VR's have a fitment for the Stoptech ST40 caliper? Gary? How much cheaper is it? Best I found for the PF01 was ~$250/set. That's Endless pricing...

 

Oh - since you mentioned it John... What kind of diff lube are you running. I've been partial to Redline fluids for tranny/diff, but frankly didn't like the MT90/MTL mix I tried in the first tranny in the Z. I had run the Shockproof in my WRX diff which seemed to work well, but I had no real way of knowing other than having it blow up (it didn't) or bad noises (none to speak of). It just always spooked me how weird that stuff looks in comparison to 'normal' gear oil...

 

I saw the Cobalt VR's listed here:
http://www.zeckhausen.com/StopTech/c...m#Track%20Pads

$189...not bad considering how much the other offerings are running.

 

Thanks dnguyent - almost $100/set cheaper. I saw how hard John runs, and if they hold up for him, I'm sure they'll be plenty for me. Looks like I'm at least going to give them a shot before shelling out for the PF01's.

ahm