kbiz

I haven't given up... I was just at a fabrication shop all day yesterday.

I don't know why the Stoptech guys never want to answer questions that don't give them an opportunity to plug their product... oh... I guess that is why they don't... duh.

DZeckhausen

I don't think that's a fair characterization of Jeff Ritter's input to the thread. He's done a pretty good job of pointing out some of the pitfalls of previous homebrew brake kit attempts. Hopfully he's given you some more things to think about that will be incorporated into your eventual design and testing methodology, and he's given you a more realistic view of what to expect. I know Jeff well enough to know that he's not some vulture, sitting on the sidelines, ready to jump in and say or do whatever it takes to make a sale.

kbiz

I think the bottom line for me is this... If there are at least 4 kits out for the Z that use Wilwood components and they have been out for a number of years now... at least that I know of... and I haven't heard anything BAD about even one of these kits (Stoptech post opportunity here ) In fact I've heard a good amount of praise (not from salesmen) about these kits from people that have plunked down $2k plus. So if I can duplicate one of these for around $700 (we'll see ) I'm all for it. Maybe it does have more deflection by several thousandths of an inch... and maybe that would make a difference on the track... I don't know. I haven't seen much in the way of scientific test studies... I don't have any idea HOW the different calipers have or haven't been tested or stack up against each other. That information is unavailable. I do know that from what I've heard from folks that are and have been using Wilwoods on their Z, they love them. I also believe that they will be a significant improvement over stock and quite possibly other options on the market. Definitely worth it to me due to the price difference.

Here's an interesting thought for everyone to discuss:

If 3 companies made application specific brake kits for the Z (not kit builders, but actual company direct), the first being Wilwood, second being Stoptech and the third being Brembo... and all three kits were priced at $500 (and don't factor in selling a kit on ebay for profit )... Which would you choose? All three kit's companies claim to have tested their product rigorously and claim theirs is the best on all points. All three kits are 6 piston and are reported to maintain factory bias. All three kits give you a 3 year warranty against defects, etc. Due to the equal price point, how many of you would choose Brembo? Is that just marketing? According to the Stoptech graph, the stoptechs are far stiffer than the Brembos tested, but would that sway your decision? I'd probably still lean towards the Brembos...

kbiz

actually, I was referring to yours...

DZeckhausen

I would not be the first person to buy any of these kits. Instead, I would wait to hear feedback from other users. (Users who didn't get free kits or were otherwise compensated by one of the manufacturers!)

Then I would read the results of magazine tests and other shootouts. For example: http://www.stoptech.com/company_info...hallenge.shtml

And finally, I would see which brakes won more races in the venue with cars that most closely resembled the car I owned. See: http://www.stoptech.com/company_info...n_wrapup.shtml

If I was forced to make a decision without the benefit of any of the above, I would probably try very hard to visit a stocking dealer for each brand so I could hold parts in my hands and get a sense of the relative quality of components, such as hats, brackets, and brake lines.

DZeckhausen

Ouch!

As time permits, I will go back and look at those questions again. I answered the easy ones, but there are others that will require some time and effort and research. As I'm in the midst of the holiday crazy season and I haven't even begun to shop for presents or write all my Christmas cards, I hope you understand if I'm scarce for a little while. January is traditionally a dead period in the industry and I should have more time.

kbiz

as always, any input is appreciated. Thanks a ton! I'm really curious how the stock non-brembos would place on that graph...

DZeckhausen

They wouldn't fare very well at all. A floating caliper is very flexible and tends to open up like a jaw when hydraulic pressure is applied. Some floating calipers, such as BMW's, use rubber bushings around the slide pins, which really adds to the amount of flex. The aftermarket has stepped in here and come up with bronze inserts that replace the rubber bushings. But that changes a lifetime part into an annual replacement item with regular (monthly ) lubrication requirements.

To understand the impact of a difference of a few thousandths of an inch in caliper deflection, you need to look at all the force multipliers between that caliper and the driver's foot. There is mechanical advantage in the pedal assembly and, of course, there's a huge multiplier in the hydraulics (ratios of master cylinder bore to caliper piston bore). When you work out all the algebra, it turns out that the difference in caliper stiffness can easily be equivalent in pedal feel to the difference between having stainless steel braided Teflon lines versus having fabric reinforced rubber lines. Caliper stiffness is a big deal.

Getting back to the stock floating calipers: I just traded my 2005 Chrysler 300C in for a 2006 SRT8 with factory Brembo brakes. The difference in pedal feel is amazing. I had both cars for a few days, since I had to take off my aftermarket brakes before turning the 300C over to the dealer in trade. Those stock floaters have a huge "nothing zone" where it feels like at least an inch of pedal travel results in no brake action at all. Then there's the long "non-linear" zone where the pads have touched down against the rotor, but the flex in the lines and the calipers is still being squeezed out. And finally, there's the linear zone where a given increase in pedal pressure results in a linear and predicatable increase in braking force. With the new SRT8, there is almost no slack at all before the braking starts and it's immediately linear in response. It is so much easier to threshold brake the SRT8. And, with 425 horsepower and 420 lb-ft of torque, I find myself using the brakes much more often and pressing much harder on the pedal!

kbiz

So any quality fixed caliper would be a vast improvement in the deflection department? In your opinion are floating calipers more prone to noise? I have to clean mine out regularly to avoid squealing...

zillinois

iTrader: (6)

KBiz, If you want someone to test these brakes. I volunteer. If you come up with a bracket, I'll buy the parts and install myself and give feedback as needed. You can check my posts in the racing section, I've got enough experience tracking the car that I think I can give them a good workout and give feedback on the quality and performance. I've also got a great datalogging system so I can give actual braking statistics. And I can also offer a comparison review as I had the Stoptechs on my car for about 20 track days. I applaud your efforts, keep up the good work.

DZeckhausen

I wouldn't go so far as to say "any" fixed caliper. There are some pretty small fixed calipers out there for carting and other applications that would not be suited to a 3300 pound sports car.
No. There are many sources of noise, but there's nothing inherent in a floating caliper that would make it noisier than a fixed caliper. In fact, if you took a survey of all car owners, you would find a much stronger correlation between fixed calipers and noise. But it's not a causal relationship! Cars with fixed calipers tend to be fitted with much more aggressive pads, since they tend to be cars like Ferrari, Porsche, Lamborghini, etc. And the manufacturers and owners of such cars tend to prioritize absolute performance and pedal feel over NVH issues.

If you describe the types of noises your brakes make and under what conditions they make them, we can look at the various causes and come up with solutions to quiet them. My first response would be to suggest an aggressive bedding session, assuming the noise is squealing under light pedal pressure. See: http://www.zeckhausen.com/bedding_in_brakes.htm for step-by-step instructions on proper bedding. It's amazing how often this cures all sorts of brake problems. We should also look at your choice of friction and your style of driving to see if there's a good match there. Do you sometimes take the car to the track, but keep your street pads on? That can be a source of problems, including noise and judder. Tell me more about the noise and perhaps we can fix it.

kbiz

Now we got somethin goin on here!! I'd be more than happy with that collaboration. I’ve also been thinking of a bridge bolt modification… I’ve been eye-balling the stoptech patented bridge bolt design… hmmmm… of course, they are patented would you be interested in testing 4 piston calipers? How comfortable are you with swapping calipers a few times? I think there's folks interested in both 4 and 6 pot calipers... I'm not absolutely sure we have 6 pot fans or not... both will most likely be able to use the same bracket, depending on final selection, so that makes things very simple. I was amazed at the resale on ebay for Wilwoods... folks are actually buying some used calipers for more than you can get them from behrents... so if you did buy some parts and wanted to go a different direction I highly doubt you'd be out that much. Yawl can do a completed auction search on ebay just for kicks if you like. Anyway, I'd be glad to provide brackets in the pursuit of testing, etc. No tech support or warranty, unfortunately... jk...

kbiz

Yeah I've done the bedding and I've referrenced your bedding tutorial... I don't seem to be getting glazing... but the noise will get better or go away temporarily after a proper bedding but only if I've cleaned out the calipers first... but after a ton of brake dust gums up in the pad clips, it comes back. I've found that if I go in and remove the pads and clips completely and clean everything out completely... the noise will not return for another quarter to third of the pad life. I've also tried lube on the clips and no lube on the clips... no lube on the clips seems to keep the caking down and it takes longer for any squeeling to come back. I've spent a good amount of time with my head in my wheel wells... it really seems like the design of the clips makes it easy for the quantity of brake dust to bind the movement of the pads and as a result when the noise returns, it will only be under moderate to light braking... once the pads have enough pressure on them, there's no noise. I've still got nissan brand stock pads for the fronts. It's not that bad and seems on par with other people's experience... my next thought was ordering some new clips, but it's been consistant from the beginning and is the same whether I do the brake job or the dealership does. I have very even rotor wear as well but now my rotors thickness is under spec. I've got new rotors and some green stuff pads I was going to put on there but this situation is what got me thinking about the BBK idea again...

As far as style of driving I prefer smooth but generally I am a late braker when not in traffic... and always let up smoothly at the end. I brake with the clutch out most of the time, if coming to a stop, so the brakes are getting it all... I drive pretty fast and offramps I tend to come in pretty hot. I had my first brake job at about 17k and now my rotors are a tad under spec. I still have about 20% usable pad left on the fronts at 34k. Is it possible to overheat the stock nissan pads? I've had my Z up towards 150 on several occasions and I've had severe brake fade a couple of times. This last set of pads I think I've only cooked them once, but the previous pair probably 3 times. It didn't seem to cause more or less noise from one set to the other.

DZeckhausen

Greenstuff pads? In my opinion, there isn't a worse street pad out there than the EBC Greenstuff. I don't know of any pad out there that results in more complaints per mile - specifically brake judder problems. EBC Greenstuff pads are notorious for being "pad poopers" when overheated. You would be better off with Wagner pads from your local auto parts store! I was happy to see Tire Rack dump EBC in favor of more offerings from Hawk, Akebono, and Satisfied.

DZeckhausen

When you select component suppliers for your brake kit, do be sure to take advantage of all the latest brake-through (sic) technologies out there, such as this amazing "iron cross" rotor from TriNet Motorsports.

BlackSpec02

iTrader: (17)

Like he was mentioning earlier, as the pads get thinner, they are easier to heat up and the brakes will run hotter... you could try the backing plate idea. That might cause brake fade faster...running on thin pads

kbiz

yeah, I haven't done any major heating of the pads since I measured the rotor as under par... the squeaking does seem to be more likely as the stock pads get thinner... maybe that's normal as far as pads go, but I never noticed that being the case in the past. I do think that the stock nissan pads are some of the dustiest pads ever. It also seems like the way the clips are designed promotes dust collection...

I hear tell that since EBC got bought out and they changed their formula... the depositing issue has been no more?? I've had them on the rears and I've liked them thus far... still haven't decided if I wanted to put them up front or not. I had Hawks on my last rig and I liked them but they were the reason I got good at cleaning and re-bedding pads Noisy... I switched to ceramics but they didn't have the same grab.

zillinois

iTrader: (6)

I'm very comfortable swapping out calipers and I would be looking to put the 4 pot on. But if I found some 6's that were the right price, I might be interested. Just pm me the part numbers that you have come up with for the "DIY BBk" kit when you've got them. Also, If you are interested and wanted some hard data on the 6's, send them out and I'll flog them at the track and share the results, then return them. No guarantee of course.

zillinois

iTrader: (6)

I gotta get those for my Escalade!!

kbiz

uhhhhh... hmmmm... I'm thinking that's a little bit too "West Coast Choppers" for me... They should come out with a "Hello Kitty" version too. For the ladies maybe?? Oh, I got it... the Calvin peeing on a honda symbol... perfect for the rotors and helps brake fade too. Remember the yellow and white daisy rims and those teddy bear rims from a few years back? Yeeeeaaahhhaaawwww!!!