Z1NONLY

iTrader: (2)

(Background)
I have been autocrosing for two years and wanted to share the results of a track-tested experiment.

I installed RS-R Ti2000 springs over the summer and got a just a little understeer with them. I then installed the Hotchkis sways to get the car neutral.

I went 2nd from softest up front (42% stiffer than stock) and the softest setting in the rear. (80% stiffer than stock) This fixed my understeer problem a little too well. It was perfectly neutral...as long as you gave it no (extra) throttle in a turn. Just about any extra throttle before the car was settled, and the rear would step out. (and cost me time)

I wanted just a bit more traction in the rear so that I could power out of turns better, but the rear was already at it's softest stetting and the next tightest setting for the front was...82% stiffer than stock, and would have theoretically put me back where I started. (understeer)


(point)
I decided to try moving only one link on the front sway bar to the next tightest setting and, it worked! The cars balance has shifted ever so slightly to where I can use the throttle out of turns, (within reason) and the car still has razor-sharp turn in and rotates well. My times are only slightly better than before I moved the single link, but the car is easier to drive overall.

mw9

iTrader: (51)

So the front is on the 3rd from softest now and the rear is at the 1st setting?

Z1NONLY

iTrader: (2)

One of the front-end links is in the third from softest. The other front-end link is still in the second from softest. -Mismatched front settings, on purpose.

dklau33

iTrader: (17)

Are you able to do this with the stock endlinks or do you have adjustable endlinks?

terrasmak

iTrader: (8)

I was thinking about doing this with my rear bar, soft is to soft , and Med is to hard(on the street). Yes ive compensating for stock springs and shocks right now.

Z1NONLY

iTrader: (2)

Stock endlinks.

But I only run street rubber (275R and 255F). I'm not sure about extra stress from (extra force, due to added grip from..) fat race tires.

goodkd

iTrader: (7)

I swear I saw a diagram on the web once that indicated that such (staggered) sway bar setups were OK - It was a simplfied drawing showing all the combinations that could be used. I can't find it now, but has anyone else seen it?


I installed the RS-R Ti2000 springs this summer too.

Q45tech

You just sum the stiffness difference for each hole combination and /2: 80%/2 +22%/2 = 51% you get a total of 6 [no duplicates in reverse].

goodkd

iTrader: (7)

Actually I think with the 4-way adjustable settings you get 7 total settings:

1-1
2-2
3-3
4-4
1-2
2-3
3-4

Regardless, I guess my point was that while you don't hear of people doing this too often, I think it is a completely legitimate and manufacturer accepted setup. Am I wrong?

Props to OP for thorough testing.

RKnight

Stillen shows a diagram like that in their ad for their sway bars.

Z1NONLY

iTrader: (2)

Update!

After almost a year on the RS-R lowering springs, my stock struts have started to show some wear. (The car started to feel a little "messy" on the track, and seemed to have a little "jiggle" motion on the street.)


So.....

I have moved up to the Koni's and have now moved my sway bar settings back to normal positions. (no longer staggered)

Because I can now use the struts to fine-tune the car's balance, the staggered setup is no longer needed.

For those who are considering a staggered sway bar setting, I can say that I had no problems with it. (end-links, bushings etc.)

BTW: Jason, (TractionCircle) was kind enough to offer his garage and experience on the Koni install. (He ended up doing most of the heavy lifting on this just so I could learn how it's done.)

Thanks a million Jason!

burntZ

iTrader: (1)

sorry to revive a classic but

Any further updates on what setting you have your Konis at?

just did cobb sway / springs last week and the konis are on the big brown truck and trying to start at a known good adjustment

recomenadtons gladly taken for street and track (sebring on 5/9/9)

TIA!

Z1NONLY

iTrader: (2)

I now run the Kumho XS tires and they have more grip than the tires I was running before.

So, with a 275 255 setup, I ran med for the back sway, and full soft for the front sway. The rear Koni's are a few clicks (swipes) from full soft and the fronts are just a little on the soft side of half way.

My alignment is still -2.2 camber rear and -1.5 camber front. 1/8" toe-in rear and 1/8" toe-out front.

Having said all that, I just mounted the widest tires I have ever ran on my car. (285 rear and 275 front) I expect to have to fix a little oversteer, but I haven't decided how. Either move the front sway one notch stiffer, or move the rear bar to full soft, (one notch softer) and tighten the rear shocks just a little because I think the rear sway adjustment might overshoot the "spot" I'm looking for. (I might just stagger the rear bar )

The rear sway being at med really got the car to "dance" well and my times did come down, but I havn't been able to get back on throttle as soon/hard as before. I hope having more tire up front will allow me to sften up the back and get back some of my throttle without getting back the understeer too.

burntZ

iTrader: (1)

Exactly what i was looking for!

Will start here! - Softside of med [vs hardside/med] and play from that

konis 'out for delivery' according to fedex so am going out to pull it all apart again while waiting

i'm just running 245s g force TAs f & r on my old 17" stockies at the track and am hoping that they won't get as tore up on the outside edges as much as they used to

Thanks Again!

Z1NONLY

iTrader: (2)

A general rule of thumb I use is less grip requires softer settings and more grip requires stiffer settings. On 245's you may want to go a bit softer than I have.

Z1NONLY

iTrader: (2)

Update:

I decided to try setting the rear sway back to full soft (both the front and rear were then at full soft, or 22% stiffer than stock in the front and 80%stiffer than stock rear), and I was able to get the car ballanced by setting the rear shocks to just a hair stiffer than the half-way point. (front shocks stayed just on the soft side of half-way)

The car did have tremendous grip, but the steering was slow and there was a lot more motion from the car in transition.

When I tested the setup on our test and tune course, I was .3 seconds slower than the smaller tires. So that night, my brother and I put the rear sway-bar back to med (125% stiffer than stock) and the front to hole 2 (48% stiffer than stock.) Both the front and rear shocks were set just a little softer than half-way.

The car was sharper. The steering was quick, and the Z was once again able to "dance". And I was still able to take advantage of the extra grip from the larger tires.

The next day was our "points" day at the track so the course was new. However I was able to compare my times to some consistant drivers and I am happy to say the Z is now faster than it was on the smaller tires. (only by 3-6 tenths on a 67-second course) It was my first time tracking the setup, so I hope to shave a little more time off as I get used to it. (Maybe only another tenth or two. The setup is not at all tricky drive.)

danimaldaisy

Z1NONLY

Just ran across your thread (couldn’t reach you on 350tech as I think the site died----nobody posting over there)

Anyhow I have been following your thread for quite a while.

Here is my setup right now

RS-R down springs (I could not get the TI at the time but the specs are identical)

Tokico D-spec

Hotchkis sways

245/35/19 front and 275/35/19 rear.

I am having a difficult time finding a starting point with my setup.

I did the recommended setup per the instructions for softest in the rear and 3rd hole from softest in front (3rd out of 4th hole up front) this did get me back to stock feeling. I was running Tokico HP blues at this time and they got soft on me in 2 months time (Sucks!)

I made a change that MAY have affected things but I am not sure it was in a bad or good way.....I did the rear spring mount mod to even out the car, but it took away the tight feeling up front (I really liked how the car felt when it was stock and was going for stock better) so I tried staggering the front by going 3rd hole and 4th hole up front and it felt like it did before I did the spring mount mod, but I put it back because I think I ran into an articulation problem on the end link that was in the 4th hole.

I then put the D-specs on...from full stiff to full soft there are 7.5 turns....I started out at 4 turns from full stiff all the way around (you don’t need to let struts brake in do you? air bubbles? nothing mentioned in the instructions about this)....driving around they were WAY too soft for my taste and after a few adjustments I ended up ad 2 turns from full stiff up front and 3 in the rear.....after a few days it felt softer (or possibly I got to used to it) and I went 1 turn from full stiff up front and 2 in the rear.....by the next week it felt a little sloppy again so I ended up setting to full stiff all the way around.....it hasn’t gotten worse, but went from stiff stiff to comfy stiff in a matter of days (if that makes sense)....so either my struts wore out prematurely or they broke in.....

it did feel like the rear wanted to buckle a little on a turn...going faster than 30mph so I tried stiffening up the rear bar to the second hole while the front was on the 3rd (stiff setting) and the rear felt better, but I am not sure about this....I am now questioning if I even know what the hell I am doing anymore.....my brain wants to tell me that the struts are starting to suck and can’t stand up to the task (if this is the case I just wasted 900 on blues and d-specs) either that or my sway bar settings are WAY off....I would like to work with what I have at the moment in order to see where I am at.

My car does have 99,000 miles on it and maybe I have worn out bushings somewhere that I or the Nissan dealer just can’t track down? But the Nissan hard bushing kit doesn’t seem to have every bushing in it?!?!

Sigh.....my plan was to fix my problem and so far it has gotten expensive real quick....I am almost wanting to pull the trigger on some tien flex coilovers as my brother in law had them on his 300zx turbo for 30k with no problems and the car was pretty low and the tein struts held up.

Before I do anything I would like to experiment with what I have.

What would you recommend? Should I buy brand new rear spring mounts instead of the cut ones....and try replacing all 4 end links once more as a start.


what sway settings would you try with my tire size.....I can’t seem to get the car to come anywhere close to handling like it’s on rails (it sure felt like that from the factory.


Sorry for the long post

Z1NONLY

iTrader: (2)

I still think the "recommended" starting point was created by the legal department to avoid lawsuits.

I would expect full soft for the rear and stiff up front to cause understeer. The steering would feel very sharp, but the front would give up traction long before the rear would.

With the tire sizes you have and your desire to have the car feel "sharp", I would try moving the rear bar to a stiffer setting.

I have not tried your shocks so I don't have any first-hand info on those, but I try to keep my Koni's near the middle of their range.

Be careful, rear sway bar adjustments can make the Z tail happy, and stiff suspensions tend to give less warning before they lose traction. Find a safe place to try it out and get used to your settings.

GL

terrasmak

iTrader: (8)

drop the rear bar back to full soft then the front to one up from full soft and work from there.

BTW what tires are you running?

danimaldaisy

Both of you have good ideas and now i don't feel like such a noob.

this looks like i have to choose here....according to the info you both provided i have determined that i cant have sharp steering up front and get the car feeling neutral at the same time.

i cant really adjust the fronts because i will run into an articulation problem on the front end links (they are happy in holes 1-3, but the 4th hole....i drove it around the block and i could feel binding so i moved it back as to not ruin the end link.......i CAN buy some new rear spring mounts to raise the back up (i have cut rear mounts---this may be a mistake i made) and i know this will bring back the sharpness up front.....

with the spring mounts cut .5 inches it FEELS like a stock Z would if you ran the rear bars staggered one side at full soft and the other on the middle hole. which is why staggered up front 3rd and 4th holes bring it back to stock feeling (but then i have an articulation problem.

you know i could still try this out though....the front bar has some slop in it due to hotchkis not putting the welded collars closer to the bushings....but i fixed this by cutting PVC pipe into two small pieces (one for each side) and cutting a slit so they could slide over the bar in between the bushing and the welded collar and that solved my sway bar slop/walk problem....i guess i am super sensitive cause i can feel things like that-----my point----i may be able to move one of the front links up a notch on one side....if it doesn't feel right i can always buy new spring mounts ( i think i should buy new end links also because they last about 40k miles on the highway before they crap out and i have replaced them once already) ---going this route will need an alignment which will be my fourth one in 5 months....i have been going through springs and RS-R is IT....pretty much get RS-R or get coil overs is my conclusion.

i have moved the rear bar to the middle hole before and it tightened up the rear end and kinda sorta made the front a tiny bit tighter (weird cause it shouldn't do that....adjusting sways should act like a see saw....this may be why i am leaning towards end links.....moving to the middle on the rear may have stressed the rear links into acting firmer----i dunno----i am going to spend most of my weekend driving....


I am SOOOOOO glad i can be on a forum where people will respond once again.

i love tech, but NOBODY posts over there anymore....did something happen in the past 6 months?

i want to try your settings Z1 but i think i need to plan a track day...or simply some driving lessons to understand my car better.

by the way i am running hankook ventus evo's.....

I was on a budget...i bought some 19 inch stern ST-1 beast staggered wheels on eBay for 369 shipped (nobody was bidding) and sat on them since Christmas up until a few weeks ago when tire rack had a sale for 138 per tire so i jumped on it.....tires aren't bad...and are actually an improvement over the stock potenza 17 inch setup