VIZAGE

iTrader: (20)

I have been playing with my Hotchkis sways all week and searching also. I came across a post where someone mention that adjustable sways such as a 3 hole adjustablity really can be a 6 hole adjustablity. Due to you could also put one side in the stiffest setting and on the other end of the same sway in the middle setting to give you the half of the full stiffness setting, instead of full. Make since? So is this legit or does both side need to be same setting? I want to make sure before something bad could happen. Nobody in the rest of the thread stated other wise.

Z1NONLY

iTrader: (2)

I may have been the one that made the post you are talking about.

https://my350z.com/forum/brakes-and-suspension/312887-sway-bar-settings-between-the-settings.html

I track my car a lot. ( At least two days of autocrossing a month, sometimes more) It's legit for me, and I have tested it under some hard (track) driving.

VIZAGE

iTrader: (20)

Thanks. I never even saw this thread. I have mine set at full stiffness front and rear. Just need the rear a tad softer for grip on exit. For me this is going to be ideal. I don't track as of yet. Just a lot of spirted driving, moutains, etc.

MyFairladyZ2006

iTrader: (2)

You have the Eibach Pro Kit too?
How do you like it?

VIZAGE

iTrader: (20)

I love the Prokit way over the Hotchkis springs I had. Don't get me wrong, Hotchkis is great. I just like the lower stance, but majority I like the handling characteristics. A lot better at higher speeds IMO. It's rougher on rebound, due to I still have stock shocks. But not that bad at all. But that doesn't bother me one bit. Anything closer to a racecar feel, I'm all for it.

Z1 Performance

iTrader: (564)

You would be well served to not start staggering swaybar settings side to side without a fully adjustable suspension (including endlinks, coilovers), as well as a set of scales to see what your net effects are. You are now altering the fulcrum points of the bar, as well as the way it is now automatically altering your preload. Without adjustable endlinks, you have no way to adjust for such preload whatsoever.

Not to mention, you are now changing the amount of resistance the swaybar bushing has, and with stock bushings, are significantly compromising the ability of the bushing with the shorter arm length to do it's job vs the bushing with the longer arm length. You've now made the car exit turns differently one way vs another, by altering the roll stiffness.

Further, how do you know which side to change? Did datalogging show you which inside tire needed more correction than another? You're talking very advanced means of suspension tuning here, which I'd suspect none of us (unless you are running your Z in ALMS, etc) are qualified to do without some very expensive meauring tools and telemetry. Best off leaving this stuff to the guys who would actually benefit - full out, competition level track cars.

Every change you make has a cause and affect - alot of times with suspension settings, there is a big placebo affect as well . That last sentence cannot be overstated enough IMHO

Z1 Performance

iTrader: (564)

Vizage - you would be much better served to get the proper size tires on your car before you start altering swaybar settings - you're chasing a problem that you caused yourself, but you're doing it with the wrong tools
You are 1, if not 2 sizes too small up front IMHO - especially with all the extra weight your car now wears up front

Z1NONLY

iTrader: (2)

I just called Hotchkis. They said that one hole difference from side to side is a way to get settings between the settings and that, because the difference, for the endlinks, from one hole to the next is relatively small, it will not cause problems with preload.

I have always viewed the sway bar as a single spring that resits change between the two sides of the car, (compression and decompression).
The amount of resistance is simply the sum of resistance from the two connection points. Moving one endlink, one hole, keeps the geometry of the endlinks similar while still adding or subtracting (in smaller units) the overall resistance provided by the bar.

As for the placebo refrence, it's true. Many people think their car is faster or slower after a given mod and are indeed incorrect. That's why I waited until after I ran the car on our "test and tune" track to be sure. The timing lights don't know what mods and methods I'm using and are unbiased. This mod will change the cars handling in smaller increments. That still leaves each individual to find the balance that suits their individual driving style.

VIZAGE

iTrader: (20)

Z1NONLY, you beat me to the punch. I was going to give them call also. How else can you learn more than through the manufacture, others, and trial and error. To me this is really a small issue. I like the your example of comparing a sway to a spring. And by doing what I want would only as you put it, subtracting resistance provided by the bar. It's just that simple IMO.

Now Z1 Performance, you did bring some great things to the table I didn't think much about. You said that I needed to look into some proper tire size? I believe you might of been referring to the front tire. I need to go wider for sure. The rear is fine, for I have replaced it. Just waiting on the front to wear some more. I just like to get all the wear I can before replacing. You also specified about the added weight and stating about making the front softer. But this setting is what fits me fine. Just needed a little bit of less oversteer in the rear and was looking at reason I could accomplish this. Overtime I stiffen the car, it seems to fit my driving style when roughing it.

These are not the stiffest bars on the market either. So I feel I'm over doing anything. But late next year I plan to track a lot. So plans for full coilover, corner balancing, and etc are coming. I have been checking into some driving schools also. Handling characteristics are so important and I have a long ways to go. But I want to learn desperately.

Z1 Performance

iTrader: (564)

Really? And they've studied stock endlinks? Hotchkis are a top notch company for sure, but they don't make endlinks for their bars, nor did factory endlinks enter into their equation by my estimation (the factory ones are GARBAGE). As for your theory that the sway is a spring, you are right - but the change you make on one side is not equally counterbalanced on the other

Z1NONLY

iTrader: (2)

If the factory endlinks can take the stress of all the settings on the sway bar, the slightly offset settings shouldn't put any strees beyond the worse possible matched setting.


But the roll resistance should still be the sum of resistance presented by both endlinks. No matter which way the car turns, the sum is the same. (The car behaves the same way in either direction.)

You may be correct about a stress differential at the endlinks but, as I said before, a one hole missmatch shouldn't create that much stress.

VIZAGE

iTrader: (20)

See, this statement really doesn't make since to me. Just because the endlinks are at different settings, the sway it's self is still one adjustable unit. So all you would be really adjusting is the percentage of stiffness the sway will transfer to the car when under load. No side would be unbalanced while turning.

So far as the end links, I fail to see where they would be taken any further stress from offsetting them more than if you had it at full stiffness. The end links rotate themselves. And offsetting them to a point that's not even half an inch couldn't possible hurt the end links themselves. Of course under hard track conditions the stock links are not going to last anyways in due time. I really think this is small beans though.

Z1 Performance

iTrader: (564)

take a look at the direction a factory endlink faces on a lowered car, and tell me the difference in preloading one side vs another is minimal vs a stock car There is a reason so many people complain about their noisy endlinks on Z's when lowered.

The roll resistance, by nature, cannot be the same side to side if the endlinks are in 2 different positions on the swaybar. The different holes in the sway correspond to different roll resistances, and that resistance is only divided evenly across the bar when the bar is sitting parallel to the ground. When the bar is using 1 hole on 1 side, and another hole on the other, it no longer is parallel to the ground, the busings on either side are not longer in the same positions, nor are the endlinks. The issue is further compounded on a lowered car without fully adjustable endlinks.

Z1 Performance

iTrader: (564)

The sway is a spring, that through its resistance to twist, is acting on each side of the car. If you stagger the sway (taking the bushings, which are not set up for such staggered setups), by the nature of sheer physics, is exerting a different resistance to twist on one side vs another. I can post the math if you want, but it's a bit late

As for the endlink, the reason is simple - because you are, by nature, limiting the articulation of one endlink vs another by having asymetrical settings

The factory links can barely, and I mean barely, keep up with stiffer bars at their milder settings, if the car is being used to its full handling potential.

SergEK

Perhaps the slight difference in side to side reaction to the setting is what he is after???

Since the driver side is typically carrying more weight (without cornerbalance) maybe a slight offset in the sway changes the characteristics that exist naturally?

Maybe I am way off but just thought I would pose the theory

Z1 Performance

iTrader: (564)

perhaps, but I'd be hard pressed to believe one could be so sensitive so as to discern that type of minute difference via a simple set of progressive lowering springs, on stock shocks, and street tires

Z1NONLY

iTrader: (2)

The bottom line is that the car handles better than it did before I made the switch. Moving the single endlink, one spot, removed the hair-trigger (throttle) oversteer behavior the car exhibited before the change. (In either direction) I only "tightened" the driver's side, yet the desired balance occurs when turning in either direction. This goes to my assertion that changing one side by the small amount has a similar, if not identical, effect on both sides. Otherwise, my car would still kick the back end out when turning in one direction, like it did before, but not when turning in the other direction. This has not happened.


The car still turns in very well, yet takes a set and lets me power out of corners, in either direction, better than before. (Good for 2 to 3 tenths on our test and tune course)

The point about different stress levels, due to different endlink angles, may be true. But I only run on street tires so the maximum force I can apply to the suspension is reduced anyway.

Also, the OP Has not broken an endlink on the tightest setting. Is it being suggested that moving one endlink, one position softer, will then cause an endlink to fail?

I have done three track days, and a lot of runs, so far. The car feels better/faster and the timing lights agree. If I have any problems with anything I run in my setup, I will be sure and post it. Otherwise, I don't want to screw with a setup that's working.

*update* Just for the sake of argument, I moved the other endlink (still working on the front sway bar) to the same, tighter setting. I then went out to my favorite "spot" and tried it out. The result was a little understeer. Not horrible, but pretty much what I expected. It was especially noticeable in transitions. (Simulated slalom) instead of the balanced throw-and-catch feel of the mismatched setting, or the twitchy feel of the softer, matched setting, the stiffer (matched) setting was a plow-and-bite affair. (Not good IMHO)

I have now put it back to the mismatched setting. It just handles better, for me, this way.

1nate7

iTrader: (19)

Stillen calls their bars 5-way adjustable even though there are only 3 holes. Not that they are the authority on the subject, but they must seem to think its OK to stagger the endlinks.

mw9

iTrader: (51)

Are there after market or upgraded end links that anyone knows about.

VIZAGE

iTrader: (20)

Maybe this is my hidden talant. I just know the feel of my own car. I wouldn't say "so sensitive" for each adjustment is decent enough jump in percentage of stiffness, which is noticable to myself. Even if the setup is staggered or not.

I would like to stated you are making some great points and this all goes into great thought for myself. Just wanted to let you know I'm not discrediting everything you apply. Thing is, it's working for myself, no problems yet.