MannishBoy

iTrader: (1)

That isn't true. I've talked to a couple of pretty experienced track people that wore out rear pads without VDC on on track days on the stock brakes. Autocross would be just fine, though, I would guess with stock pads, since a general lap doesn't last much longer than a minute, and the pads won't get that hot.

The other issue with the stock rears is the pads get hotter because they are just so small.

Stoptechs own tests do not show them significantly better than the Brembos for heat fade. Even dwnshft here, who is running competitively in real races has said the Brembos are good brakes, and my understanding is they are still running them on their race car.

BTW, here is a great article on some of the Stoptech testing. Doesn't really talk about rear wear, but is interesting to see.

Don't get me wrong, the Stoptech setup is great. I'd just go for hte Brembos for the same money to have a four wheel solution.

daytona350z

iTrader: (19)

hehe...lets just say i got the brembos at a lil over half of what a stoptech 13in would cost me...

and this is a 4 wheel system..

AmyCroft

iTrader: (3)

Datona350z:
I think you did well, and you can sell the stock items.

Cheers Amy -

Or have some awsum spares.

GaryK

Well, a deal is a deal...no debating that.

I'm hearing conflicting reports on the Brembo setup. Some say they do fine on the track, but I have heard of others having problems with them in the same application. I'd certainly like to know what dwnshft is running on the GAC car, although they may be running the Track Brembos because of a rule limitation.

Blue Liquid

I was under the impression that the stock Brembos on the Z are not the same as the calipers you would buy if you got a Brembo Big Brake kit. I mean, the Track cars rotors are 12 inch, compared to 13 or 14 inch for the Brembos. Is the only difference between the Big Brake kit and the Track model Brembos the color?

GaryK

I believe you are correct about the Track Brembo calipers being different from those sold in kits. They're good calipers, but apparently not as good as some aftermarket pieces....who knows for sure what the differences are though. I'd guess they aren't quite as stiff as aftermarket Brembo, Stoptech, or AP calipers, and that makes a huge difference in brake performance. Another variable that will make a difference is pad size, I don't know how the Track Brembos compare to aftermarket.

The rotor size is one of the reasons I would rather have an aftermarket kit. Bigger rotors = more mass = lower brake temperatures. Increasing the amount of heat your front brakes can absorb/dissipate goes a long way to preventing brake fade. You have to be careful though, large diameter alone helps but thickness matters too. For example, some of the Wilwood kits for other cars use 13x1.25 rotors, while their kits for other cars use 13xthin rotors.

BTW, just to add fuel to the fire. I won't ever upgrade rear brakes unless absolutely necessary because there's no need to add rotating/unsprung weight if it doesn't serve a very good purpose.

Traffic

Another potential path for a brake upgrade might be to try and source R34 GTR brakes.

I was going to go this route b/c I figured this could be a cost-effective upgrade and there were commonalities between Z33 and R34, but a 4-wheel set of Brembos (used, mind you) was going to set me back ~$2800.

ShermanA

The Track rotors are 12.76" x 1.18". So, to call them 12 inch rotors isn't that accurate. In fact they are a 1/4 inch smaller in diameter than 13 inchers and over an inch larger than the stock (comparing the fronts).

was wesman

iTrader: (7)

My Wilwoods are 13.6" x 1.25" .....and to reply to the "cheap" calipers on the kit, I must say these are some of the nicest and best built calipers I have ever seen. This includes kits I've seen on Porsche's and Ferrari's.

Totally agree with you on the rears....I may swap out to some different rotors but the cost/benifit isn't there for me on the rears.

--wes

was wesman

iTrader: (7)

6-piston front kit....13.6" x 1.25" 2 piece rotors and fits under stock wheels for track days

And they are priced very similar to Stoptech....a little cheaper right now I believe.

Let me know if you're interested and need more info

--wes

GaryK

I'm not trying to rain on your parade, but if I'm not mistaken you have Superlite series calipers with that kit, right? When compared in severe duty applications, the Wilwood superlites don't even compare to Brembos and the like. Even if you compare the 6 piston Wilwoods to the 4 piston calipers from Stoptech, Brembo and AP. Two reasons: caliper flex and pad area. Its physics, and you can't change it. They might work ok for you, all I'm saying is that they aren't as good as the others mentioned.

Oh, another problem that isn't really performance related is the fact that the Wilwoods don't have dust boots on the pistons. This increases the chance of getting dirt and debris in there and scoring a piston, not to mention the fact that the seals won't last long. You'll want to keep a close eye on those calipers, and they will need rebuilds fairly often.

As far pricing goes, Stoptech 13" front is all you will need performance wise, and the cost is 1900...way less than the Wilwood kit I think. Or, you can have the AP kit for 1750 as another preferable option.

Jason Bourne

Just to throw in my $0.02.

I'm an experienced track junkie with the StopTech 13" kit. I'm going through rear pads very quickly. Generally a set of rear pads will last me one track weekend (2 days) and whatever street driving takes place until the next event. But they are so easy to swap in and out that I just buy the rears in bulk (6 at a time) and don't worry about them.

On the fronts I run a dedicated track or street pad. I'm also planning on adding some cooling ducts to the front since even these big boys are struggling to dissipate the heat with Nissan's zero air flow design.

Jason

GaryK

Are you going to try to get some air to the rear brakes? I've had similar problems with small rear brake pads on one of my previous race cars, and good air flow made a difference. You can run ducts down to a control arm and pick up some air down there. Its not much, but every little bit helps.

Russell (Dallas)

Good debate going on here!

The custom brake kit that Wes is refering to is from my company - RMS Horsepower. I felt it appropriate to do two things. First, to let eveyone know where they can find details about the kit....since the 350z kit has just been released and Wes is the first 350z customer:

www.350zbrakes.com

The Brembo, AP and Stoptech kits are all high quality kits, but each has their own short comings - as does my kit! The reason I developed this kit was to fill a gap in the 14" kit market. The goals for my kit were to develop a high quality, performance focused kit that was reasonably priced, has a low cost of maintenance (pads cost ~$80 and replacement full race rotors are only ~$180 - these are not Wilwood rotors, they are fully custom speced race rotors) and FIT under stock 17" rims.

Second, to clarify some statements about the Wilwood calipers. I AM NOT STARTING A FLAME WAR HERE!

GaryK, your statement about caliper flex being an issue for Wilwood would have been true several years ago. The designs on their current calipers, especially the SL6 are extremely stiff. I have seen a track side comparision of caliper flex, taken with a dial indicator between the SL6 and another caliper ($6,000 kit at the time) listed here (again, not starting a flame war here). These were kits on Vipers. The 'other' caliper had over 4 thousandths flex, the SL6 had 2 thousandths flex.......

The Wilwood SL6 calipers that I am using on the this kit are extremely high quality and totally focused on performance. In addition, Wilwood offers an option of Thermlock pistons for the ultimate in heat management (separates the pistons into 2 pieces further removing the brake fluid from the piston area touching the pad).

GaryK please clarify your statment about Wilwood calipers not being able compare to Brembo/AP/StopTech under severe duty applications. I am curious to see the info about this....

Wilwood has a long history of successful racing wins with their products - including the SL6 calipers. The lastest from Wilwood's web site; Michael Baughman Racing on the road course at Watkins Glen, New York. The team Firebirds took first and third place in track conditions ranging from wet to dry in the Grand-Am Cup Series Grand Sport II event.......Obviously, the Firebirds are pretty heavy cars and Watkins Glen is very tough on brakes and every other brake manufacturer listed here was represented at this race...I won't bore everyone with naming off all the other wins, but you can go read for youselves:

http://www.wilwood.com/hotnews.cfm

OF COURSE, no team wins a race based on brakes alone (or any other single factor). My point is to illustrate that Wilwood makes a VERY high quality and competitive product.

In regards to the pad area, the SL6 pad area is ~6,096 mm x 2. Not sure what the brembo's pad area is, but the AP pad area is ~5,625 mm x 2...make your own conclusion

In addition, pad area and caliper flex are not the only items that impact braking performance. How about pad compound, tire compound, clamping force, weight transfer, heat management etc etc etc....

In regards to the dust boots and caliper seals. I've been street driving and doing DE's with my own 300zxTT for over 3 years now with an almost identical kit (12.5x1.25 rotors instead of 13.6x1.25 rotors). I have yet to have had a failure or to rebuild a caliper....your statement is totally generalized and not accurate. It is pretty simple to spray the exposed caliper pistons with brake cleaner, wipe clean and then press back into the caliper as you normally would...In addition, no customer of mine has had to rebuild a caliper....Feel free to go to twinturbo.net and ask.

To say that the 13" stoptech kit is 'all you need' is pretty generalized statement also. Based on what criteria? In regards to price, $1,900 is a pretty good price for a brake kit. My kit is selling for $2,200. Only a $300 difference, but my kit is designed to compete with the 14" kits, priced at $2,500+......

Hopefully no one will take these statements as 'flame', just clarifications. Again, these are all great kits, each with their own pluses and minuses.

If anyone would like more information, please feel free to email me directly. rms.horsepower@verizon.net

GaryK

Russell,
I'm not saying that nobody should buy the wilwood setup. I'm also not saying that wilwood doesn't make good calipers, their upper end calipers are great, like the GN calipes. But the superlite series is not one of them, at least it hasn't been. These calipers do flex a bit, causing tapered pad wear. Between the small amount of flex and the tapered pads, pedal feel is not as good. You also don't get as much life out of the pads.

I just finished spending a lot of time researching brakes for the next race car I'm going to build. It's a 98 Camaro, so the options were Baer (with AP 4 piston calipers), Porsche Brembos (GT3 spec), Stoptech (4 piston), Wilwood (SL6 setup), and others not even worth mentioning. Wilwood was out immediately because the rotors were too thin (this is particular to only certain wilwood kits). Stoptech was out because it hadn't been released yet. Baer/AP and Porsche GT3 were the top contenders at the time. Yes, I ended up choosing the Porsche GT3 because the AP pad area was smaller than I wanted, and I also believe that the Porsche calipers are the best you can buy.

I'm not going to argue with you. My "opinion" that the wilwood superlite calipers aren't as good as the others is based on actual experiences from the track, mine as well as others. I have a set of pads sitting on a table in the shop that came out of superlite calipers on a sub 3000 lb. car. They're tapered worse than I've ever seen I think. I don't put much faith into a manufacturers claims about their own product. I also know enough to realize that braking performance isn't determined by the two factors I mentioned concerning calipers. You must be misunderstanding me because my point it that given the same conditions otherwise, the superlite calipers aren't going to work as well as the others IMO.

Regarding the issues with not having dust seals, it may not be an issue if this is known to the user. The problem is, a lot of people don't know it, and don't take the proper precaustions as a result. You seem to be mechanically inclined, so to you the possible problems are no big deal. I have witnessed the other side though, where a guy can't understand why his badass Wilwood calipers started leaking. Anyway, this isn't my reason for not being a wilwood supporter, its just something that should be known to potential buyers.

I do agree that all these kits are good, and they all are without a doubt much better than stock. And they all do have their advantages as well as disadvantages. All I'm doing is sharing what I know to give people another point of view besides the claims from the manufacturers.

For what its worth... for somebody looking for big rotor bragging rights or the look they give, that isn't putting performance as priority one, I'd recommend your kit. The price isn't bad compared to other kits with similar sized rotors, and the cost to replace rotors and pads is good as well.

Best regards

Jason Bourne

I may consider it eventually but there are two reasons why I'm focussing on the front cooling first.
1) My front rotors were showing temps around 70 degrees F hotter than the rears after a session and were showing uneven heat distribution around the rotor face
2) Although, it is possible to get *some* air to the rears, it's harder to do it and you get less air there than in the front (unless I cut some holes in the rear quarter panel (like the 996 turbo) and route that down into the rear brakes)

I'm still waiting on someone to create a backing plate for the rotors that will accept an air hose...

Jason

Russell (Dallas)

Thanks for the reply Gary. You have obviously had some less than stellar experiences with Wilwood calipers and are entitled to your opinions.

I agree, no intention of arguing about your experiences.

I also am a racing fanatic (SCCA licensed) and have had the opposite experiences on the track. Along with positive comments from many others using my kit and similar kits for the C5 and Viper. I have never had a Wilwood pad taper on me, although I am only using the SL6 with differential bore pistons. Were you using the same or the square bore 4 piston versions?

On my 300zxTT, I've gone through 1 (one) set of pads in 3 years (with street driving and many DE events). The pads cost me $80.

I have also never experienced any caliper flex problems, using both their tab mount and radial mount SL6 calipers....so I am not basing my comments on Wilwood marketing info but on my own and others experiences also. I have also driven many other types of cars with big brake kits, so I am not working in a vacumm.

My real world experience with my smaller kit on my 300zxTT (3,400lb car) is catching and passing the Porsches by outbraking them into the incredibly hard corners at Hallet during a DE (advanced group). Definately turned some heads.

Totally understand about the options for your Camero. The Porsche setup is totally awesome. I know you qualified your statement about ruling out the Wilwood kit due to too thin of rotor on that particular Wilwood kit, but I need to clarify again for others reading that this is not a Wilwood kit and that I am not using Wilwood rotors. I am using a Wilwood caliper, but the kit is custom developed with 1.25" thick race rotors.

Your points about the dust boots are well taken and people do need to be aware to be diligent in cleaning the pistons when replacing the pads. If one can replace pads they can also clean the pistons....I think we all have 'seen the other side'; people who do really dumb things. That will be the case regardless of product. Again, as long as people are aware, the dust boot item is not a big issue.

I will reserve comment on the other kits offering more performance than this kit.

Obviously, I am not going to change your opinion. Just like you, I am trying to educate people. And yes, I suppose I biased since I am selling this kit.

Take care and good luck with building the race car.

GaryK

Russell, the calipers I was referring to on my own car are 4 piston differential bore. However, I have seen the same with 6 piston superlites. Have they changed the design of the superlites at all recently? If so, I was not aware of it.

As far as the Wilwood kit for the Camaro compared to your kit for the 350z, rotors definitely wouldn't be an issue there! I still have my reservations about the calipers though, so I would rather use Brembo or Stoptech.

A lot of people may take what I say the wrong way. I've thought about putting disclaimer in every post, "the information presented here is soley my opinion". All I do is present what I know, a lot of which is from my own experience. I don't mean to step on any toes, but these message forums exist partly to allow people to share information like this.

Good luck to you too


Jason,
I agree, concentrate on the front first. Getting air will make a big difference there.

I don't know if you have any access to equipment to do this, but the backing plates are something you could make yourself. I don't really know what the 350z has from the factory, but its possible you could use that to fab up some plates with a duct connection. Something like this:

archman350z

Well, let's compare apples to apples here: he probably could have changed the pads for the same effect, which would have been much easier. It seems to me that the pads (even on the Brembos) are a little weak. I'm thinking of throwing in a set of the NISMO pads on the front before my next track event.

To be honest, I paid the money for the Brembos because they are worth it. Many hours of engineering go into each of their systems, and many hours are spent on quality control. Sure, you're paying a premium for the "Brembo" logo painted on the caliper, but they're also the "best of the best." I'd trust my life with nothing less. I also wasn't very impressed on how Stoptech does their research (SCC, Oct. 2002, Z-Thrash)...seemed too loose to me.

Also, more than 4 pistons on a street car is worthless. Multiple pistons simply combat the effects of uneven pad wear...it has nothing to do with more grip. It's dumb to buy 12-pistons unless you've got a CART car...

dwnshift

iTrader: (1)

We have had great success with the "track" model brake package on our race car. Finding the right pad combo m.
akes all the difference.
The other team that is racing the Z in our series is running the Stoptech system and we can beat them under braking.
If you are looking at doing a really big upgrade I would look at going to a mono- block 4 piston brembo up front caliper and a two piece 4 piston rear with PFC 3 pc rotors.....but thats gonna run some dough.