Brembo rotor replacement?
08-29-2003, 11:22 AM
#22
Originally posted by John
Are you aware of any company that plans to produce 2-piece rotors as OEM Brembo replacements? I'm quite suprised that nobody has planned on developing them yet...
Are you aware of any company that plans to produce 2-piece rotors as OEM Brembo replacements? I'm quite suprised that nobody has planned on developing them yet...
08-29-2003, 03:18 PM
#24
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Originally posted by 350on19inchVolk
These are not cast with the holes. Cast in holes are less expensive to manufacture so it keeps the cost low. Cast in holes are more prone to cracks than drilling.
These are not cast with the holes. Cast in holes are less expensive to manufacture so it keeps the cost low. Cast in holes are more prone to cracks than drilling.
Anytime you drill into a piece of metal, you will cause small tears in the material caused by the drill ripping through it. These small tears will be the point at which the rotor will fail (if it is going to) since the material is weakend by the tears and the hole makes for a stress-concentration. By casting the holes, there are no tears left behind by a drill, therefore this area will not be as weak. Also, casting the holes creates a continous grain pattern around the hole...instead of interrupting it with a drill hole. (Similarly, heat treating forces the grains in the metal to orient themselves in the same direction, making it much more resistant to stress).
However, you are right. The voids caused during the casting process will create much weaker areas than a drill bit ever could. Until the past few years, the metal casting industry changed very little in the last 1000 years! But now, there are new processes which can make this operation viable...which Porsche is doing. I have yet to hear of a drilled disc on a 911 fail at the track.
I hope somebody makes a friggin' 2-pc rotor for this car! It sure sounds like Brembo isn't going to do it. I'll be pissed if I have to spend another $4k to get them after already spending $4k to get the Brembos in the first place!
08-29-2003, 03:56 PM
#25
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The STILLEN Pillar Vane Replacement Rotors are $460 for the front pair and $452 for the rear according to Jayden La at STILLEN. He says they run cooler than the Brembo. Did you know that the Brembo brakes on their are not really Brembos?! They're made off shore and have a licensing agreement with Brembo!!! I found out from a Nissan Dealer in Montclair, CA!!!! They (Nissan) apparently didn't want to pay the real price for the kit and bought the right to put the Brembo name on the parts but have them built over seas. So, I called Brembo and talked to a sales guy there... he told me that those parts 'are not available through Brembo". So, I asked him, "What gives? Why can't I order those from one of your distributors?" He kinda quietly said, "technically we don't even make those brakes".
<strong>WHOAH!!!</strong>
<strong>WHOAH!!!</strong>
08-29-2003, 03:58 PM
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Oh yeah... I also found out that STILLEN is working with AP Racing to build a 4-Piston rotor for the rear of the 350Z/G35. They don't know yet if the rotor will be 1 or 2-piece though...
08-30-2003, 06:19 AM
#28
Originally posted by BLOBYU
The STILLEN Pillar Vane Replacement Rotors are $460 for the front pair and $452 for the rear according to Jayden La at STILLEN. He says they run cooler than the Brembo. Did you know that the Brembo brakes on their are not really Brembos?! They're made off shore and have a licensing agreement with Brembo!!! I found out from a Nissan Dealer in Montclair, CA!!!! They (Nissan) apparently didn't want to pay the real price for the kit and bought the right to put the Brembo name on the parts but have them built over seas. So, I called Brembo and talked to a sales guy there... he told me that those parts 'are not available through Brembo". So, I asked him, "What gives? Why can't I order those from one of your distributors?" He kinda quietly said, "technically we don't even make those brakes".
<strong>WHOAH!!!</strong>
The STILLEN Pillar Vane Replacement Rotors are $460 for the front pair and $452 for the rear according to Jayden La at STILLEN. He says they run cooler than the Brembo. Did you know that the Brembo brakes on their are not really Brembos?! They're made off shore and have a licensing agreement with Brembo!!! I found out from a Nissan Dealer in Montclair, CA!!!! They (Nissan) apparently didn't want to pay the real price for the kit and bought the right to put the Brembo name on the parts but have them built over seas. So, I called Brembo and talked to a sales guy there... he told me that those parts 'are not available through Brembo". So, I asked him, "What gives? Why can't I order those from one of your distributors?" He kinda quietly said, "technically we don't even make those brakes".
<strong>WHOAH!!!</strong>
08-30-2003, 05:43 PM
#31
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Originally posted by John
You sure about that? If so, then why did one of the managers from DBA make a thread a few weeks back polling the interest of members on this board as to whether they should sell their rotors here? Something doesn't seem to make sense...
You sure about that? If so, then why did one of the managers from DBA make a thread a few weeks back polling the interest of members on this board as to whether they should sell their rotors here? Something doesn't seem to make sense...
Dear Gus,
Your inquiry regarding Slotted Rotors for the 350Z was forwarded to us here at Brake Pros. We worked with DBA on the development and manufacturing of the replacement rotors for the 350z and are the exclusive distributor here in the USA. You can visit our web site at www.brake-pros.com for more information on these and many other performance brake products we offer for the new 350Z and Infiniti G35.
Brake pros is a division of STILLEN (Steve Millen Sports Parts Inc). You may want to visit our STILLEN site as well www.stillen.com, to see the many other performance products we offer for the 350Z.
I took the liberty of having our marketing department forward you our news letters regarding new products for the 350Z as well.
Regards,
Dan Ciganovich
Division Manager
Brake Pros
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Joseph [mailto:mark@dba.com.au]
Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2003 3:17 PM
To: Dan (Stillen)
Subject: FW: Rotors in the US
-----Original Message-----
From: gusm@sfzcc.com [mailto:gusm@sfzcc.com]
Sent: Friday, 18 April 2003 2:44 AM
To: mark@dba.com.au
Subject: Rotors in the US
I was looking at your site and was interested in the rotors for a Nissan 350Z non-Brembo brakes, I was interested in the slotted 4000 series and wanted information on pricing and where I can get them.
Regards,
Gus Martinez
09-02-2003, 06:23 AM
#32
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Originally posted by Mike Wazowski
A 4-Piston rotor.
WOW!
A 4-Piston rotor.
WOW!
You're always so quick to point errors... clearly it was meant to read 4-Piston Calipers and larger rotors...don't know if they'll be 1-piece or two-pce. You missing an 'eye' in your cartoon because somebody knocked it out?
lolllllll
10-07-2003, 03:08 PM
#33
I'll submit some rotor info.....
Brembos are cast by Bradi - whom they tried to bail out at some point in recent history. I think one of their factories is in Mexico. I got a Bradi casting when I bought an OE replacement from NAPA (weird)
Holes are definitely cast in to save money....think about it..if the hole is cast in then you save LOTS of machining time.
But any 'molding' of a hole is difficult and weakens a part. It is because of what are called 'knit' lines. The hole in the finished product is a 'post' in the tool that it comes from. So as the melted material flows around the post you have two distinct flow fronts that cool as they impinge on the tool, the post, and the air present. After the flows get around the post they must rejoin but the temps of the material on the flow front surface are "potentially' not what they should be leading to what are referred to as knit lines. It is a very duficult problem in plastics. Picture lava flowing down a mountain...a big 'post' is in the way. The flow has to separate and then rejoin. That rejoining is an issue.
Yes rotors with holes will crack sooner THEN THE SAME ROTOR w/out holes. But it is a function of the geometry....holes are stress concentrators.
Brembos are cast by Bradi - whom they tried to bail out at some point in recent history. I think one of their factories is in Mexico. I got a Bradi casting when I bought an OE replacement from NAPA (weird)
Holes are definitely cast in to save money....think about it..if the hole is cast in then you save LOTS of machining time.
But any 'molding' of a hole is difficult and weakens a part. It is because of what are called 'knit' lines. The hole in the finished product is a 'post' in the tool that it comes from. So as the melted material flows around the post you have two distinct flow fronts that cool as they impinge on the tool, the post, and the air present. After the flows get around the post they must rejoin but the temps of the material on the flow front surface are "potentially' not what they should be leading to what are referred to as knit lines. It is a very duficult problem in plastics. Picture lava flowing down a mountain...a big 'post' is in the way. The flow has to separate and then rejoin. That rejoining is an issue.
Yes rotors with holes will crack sooner THEN THE SAME ROTOR w/out holes. But it is a function of the geometry....holes are stress concentrators.
10-07-2003, 03:43 PM
#34
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Here is an interesting thread on corner-carvers.com regarding brakes and brake rotors. Pay particular attention to posts from SilverSnake, apparently, he's an engineer for Brembo:
However, one intersting item is that all of our X-drilled holes are exactly that....drilled.....even the Porsche ones. Its a bit of an urban legend that Porsche "casts-in their holes" for strength. Truth is, when I started with Brembo I thought the same thing. I mentioned it to our Italian resident Applications Engineer. I was kinda surprised myself. He laughed and added, "People seriously think we cast in all of the holes? Wow, I'd love to see the mold for that! No, actually they are all drilled and chamfered post-casting. "
Michael.
However, one intersting item is that all of our X-drilled holes are exactly that....drilled.....even the Porsche ones. Its a bit of an urban legend that Porsche "casts-in their holes" for strength. Truth is, when I started with Brembo I thought the same thing. I mentioned it to our Italian resident Applications Engineer. I was kinda surprised myself. He laughed and added, "People seriously think we cast in all of the holes? Wow, I'd love to see the mold for that! No, actually they are all drilled and chamfered post-casting. "
Michael.
10-07-2003, 03:55 PM
#35
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That is in reference to the Brembo manufactured discs. Brembo does not cast any holes in any discs.
Porsche also has rotors manufactured by Zimmerman who is responsible for the cast in holes.
There is small truths to everyone of the posts here but also alot of confusion and false information. Refer to you dealer for specific on specific applications. The refer to the specific manufacturer for the truth.
I purchased "Brembo" cross drilled rotors a year ago which cracked within 2 months. Come to find out that they were Brembo blank discs that were incorrectly drilled by a small machine shop.
I later purchased Brembo Sport Rotors form an authorized dealer and had no problems.
Just be aware of what you are buying and educate yourself. I could have very easily come in here and said I had Brembo drilled rotors and they cracked after 2 months. Without the rest of the information you would be under the impression that Brembo rotors are prone to cracking.
Porsche also has rotors manufactured by Zimmerman who is responsible for the cast in holes.
There is small truths to everyone of the posts here but also alot of confusion and false information. Refer to you dealer for specific on specific applications. The refer to the specific manufacturer for the truth.
I purchased "Brembo" cross drilled rotors a year ago which cracked within 2 months. Come to find out that they were Brembo blank discs that were incorrectly drilled by a small machine shop.
I later purchased Brembo Sport Rotors form an authorized dealer and had no problems.
Just be aware of what you are buying and educate yourself. I could have very easily come in here and said I had Brembo drilled rotors and they cracked after 2 months. Without the rest of the information you would be under the impression that Brembo rotors are prone to cracking.
10-07-2003, 05:51 PM
#36
Interesting....the urban legend of cast in holes....
Although DBA's 'pillar vane' or kangaroo paw design must be difficult to mold. And I surely would wonder as to the cooling benefits.
I looked at some 'illegal' Brembo sport's. There was still significant chips in the box. And marks where they brought the drill press down but missed and restarted. ewww!
How come nobody makes a rotor of a better material and heat treats it so it is actually a true high performance OE size brake rotor?
Rhetorical question btw.....I work for a rotor manufacturer and we could make it that way. But it won't sell (you can't see annealling and alloy's - except for the cool colors that iron turns when it is alloyed with copper and gets hot)
btw....anyone who buys a Stillen or dba replacement rotor is getting roasted.....that price is simply some percentage of the $525/each that Nissan charges that Stillen...I mean dba ...feels like they can get away with.
Although DBA's 'pillar vane' or kangaroo paw design must be difficult to mold. And I surely would wonder as to the cooling benefits.
I looked at some 'illegal' Brembo sport's. There was still significant chips in the box. And marks where they brought the drill press down but missed and restarted. ewww!
How come nobody makes a rotor of a better material and heat treats it so it is actually a true high performance OE size brake rotor?
Rhetorical question btw.....I work for a rotor manufacturer and we could make it that way. But it won't sell (you can't see annealling and alloy's - except for the cool colors that iron turns when it is alloyed with copper and gets hot)
btw....anyone who buys a Stillen or dba replacement rotor is getting roasted.....that price is simply some percentage of the $525/each that Nissan charges that Stillen...I mean dba ...feels like they can get away with.
10-08-2003, 05:53 AM
#38
roasted was maybe a bit harsh
There are economies of scale that may be in play.......low production numbers lead to high cost of tooling amortization. And the high price of what is available allows the Z rotor to be a profit leader....same scenario as the Ford Escort being sold at a loss (every single one of them....millions) while Ford makes about 10 grand on each and every Exploder.
But a rotor is a rotor.....I don't see any 'special' features of the Z replacement from dba above and beyond what may be sold to a Honda end user. The Z rotor is slightly larger so you use a bit more material but other than that......
At least it is not a rotor from 'unknown' sourcing. dba has a good reputation for their casting and machining.
There are economies of scale that may be in play.......low production numbers lead to high cost of tooling amortization. And the high price of what is available allows the Z rotor to be a profit leader....same scenario as the Ford Escort being sold at a loss (every single one of them....millions) while Ford makes about 10 grand on each and every Exploder.
But a rotor is a rotor.....I don't see any 'special' features of the Z replacement from dba above and beyond what may be sold to a Honda end user. The Z rotor is slightly larger so you use a bit more material but other than that......
At least it is not a rotor from 'unknown' sourcing. dba has a good reputation for their casting and machining.
10-08-2003, 06:31 AM
#40
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Where are you gonna go, though??? You going to start manufacturing your own rotors. That's light complaining about the price of a cheaper but better television saying that it only costs the manufacturer $30 and they're charging $330....
................................I think metalurgy helps, as well as heat treating, as well as cooling vanes, pillars, what-ever. They're clearly better than stock and cost less. Where's the confusion?
................................I think metalurgy helps, as well as heat treating, as well as cooling vanes, pillars, what-ever. They're clearly better than stock and cost less. Where's the confusion?