D'oh

Maybe you can help out in this respect.

One reason that I strongly favor Stoptech right now, is that they have provided test data (temperature, stopping distance, brake balance) for each of the their 350Z kits. This data is useful for comparison with other kits, but more importantly, it lets the potential consumer know that Stoptech has performed research with their kit on OUR car. I therefore feel comfortable that Stoptech has matched their components to our car and made sure they will work well together. Also, in the past Stoptech has posted on the site and has answered questions in a direct and honest fashion. The combination of these efforts has given me great confidence in the capability of their design and customer service groups.

I would definitely be interested in other kits if they also gave similar attention the our car, and went to similar length to show how their kits function as a system. So far, however, I have not seen any posts from other brake companies other than pictures of their kits or links to sites. While I have high confidence in the quality of the Wilwood components (and those of other brake companies), I have much less confidence in the design of any kits using their parts, simply because I have not seen any test results or reviews.

So, I would definitely like to feel as confident about these other kits as I do about stoptech, but until I hear about their performance in our cars, I simply have no idea how well they will work.

If anyone has any reviews of these other kits in the Z, or knows of any data, please let me know.

Thanks,
D'oh!

Russell (Dallas)

Fair enough!! I have schedules currently being setup to address that specific request in regards to the kit I offer.

I am still 2 - 3 weeks away from having that data, but will gladly supply it.

little_rod

Well, I am definitely interested in the Wildwoods. I don't think a brake kit should cost $2000, but for a grand, I am more interested. Guess my biggest thing is that I like the front brake kits with the slotted and crossdrilled rotors. But what about the back??? I don't need new calipers back there, but the rotors will definitely look different than the fronts cause they would be stock. Guess I would need to purchase just the rotors for the back so they would match.

Has anyone seen a front kit slotted and drilled, with the back solid??? Does it look crazy?? Think I would want the front brake kit with matching rear rotors, cause I know it would look better. A full 4 wheel kit has always been too much money, but then again, I didn't see any 4 wheel kits in the Wildwoods. How much are they??

Buub

iTrader: (1)

Because StopTech builds the entire system, balanced specifically for the car it's purchased for. They choose the size of calipers, size of rotors, etc. for each end of the car for optimum brake distribution.

These guys (http://www.precisionbrakescompany.com/custom.html ; not sure about the www.350zbrakes.com thing yet) just sell some brake parts that, when put together, should fit your car. Balance is up to you (or not done at all).

Which is probably why it's cheaper.

DZeckhausen

To answer the original question of this thread (sorry, I just noticed it now), the E38 7-Series BMW and the 350Z Track Model most certainly do not use the same calipers.

Let's start by looking at the pads. The Friction Materials Standards Institute (FMSI) publishes detailed specifications on brake pads. Each pad shape is given a unique ID number and you can look up the dimensions, thickness, and description in the FMSI handbook.

The 350Z Track Model uses a 7858-D960 pad. The pad is 4.61" wide and 2.21" tall. The thickness of the friction material is 14.3mm.


350Z Track Model pads

The BMW 7-Series uses a single piston, floating caliper, unless you are talking about the super-expensive ($100,000) 750iL flagship. That uses a two-piston floating caliper. The pad is a 7561-D682 and is 5.82" wide and 2.2" tall. Looking at the drawing below, we can see it's not even close.


BMW 750iL pads

The closest caliper to the 350Z Brembo 4-piston may be found in the E31 8-Series cars beginning in August, 1993. This, too, was made by Brembo but used a 7517-D639 pad which is 4.72" wide and 1.71" tall with 17mm of friction material thickness. The shape is similar, but that's an artifact of the Brembo 4-piston design. There's no way the 850i pad will fit in the 350Z and vice versa.


BMW 840i and 850i pads

Bottom line is the calipers are not the same. And let's pretend, for a moment, that they were. The 4-piston BMW calipers are very desirable parts, since they do backfit to several other BMW models. Since they were very rare to start with and they are desired by the BMW upgraders, you aren't likely to find any of them languishing in a junk yard. But that's just as well, since they won't fit!

350zroadster

iTrader: (1)

The guys with experience has been really civil and respectful, making this a helpful thread. On the other hand, they would be pushing their products and prefer if we bought their stuff. I don't blame them since, this is how racing and the industry is funded, by people buying things.

The way I see this is, I'm not a professional racer and want to autox without having the brakes cooking.

Thus the order of priorities are
1.Price
2.Performance

So I have two options

1)Wait for someone to try the brakes that fit my budget
2)Try with a set of brakes that would fit my budget. At least if the brakes fail, I'm still within budget.

so that's my point of view

racin

iTrader: (1)

A valid point of view.

DZeckhausen

Wilwood calipers are not sold at a lower margin than other calipers. They are less expensive because they are made of less expensive material, they use less material, and they leave out some components that others, such as Brembo and StopTech include (i.e., dust boots). Some of the compromises that go into Wilwood calipers make them work well in their niche of racing, such as sprint cars where brakes need to be light rather than strong, and make them inappropriate for a car that is used primarily on the street.

Wilwood calipers are very cheap to buy in bulk and that's why it is so profitable to slap together a kit made from their compenents. I know, since I helped Todd Cook (TCE) design a Wilwood-based kit for the Impala SS back in 1999. TCE, for those who don't know, does much of the fabrication work for Bondurant's driving school.

We're sort of comparing apples to oranges when we talk about Wilwood vs StopTech and Brembo because Wilwood builds calipers and the latter two companies build entire systems that work together. They have learned from building brake kits for many different applications and you can trust that their brackets are strong, their hats won't fall apart, and their brake lines are better than what you can slap together on your own using Earls components. StopTech has always tested all their brake lines (not production samples) to 4500 psi and Goodridge has started doing it too.

I'm not concerned about the safety of Wilwood's products. I'm concerned about the safety of brake kits that are slapped together USING the Wilwood products. What sort of fabrication experience does the kit builder have? How were the brackets designed? Were the lines tested? Was the kit designed with the goal of creating a balanced system by proper selection of rotor diameter, caliper piston size, and pad friction level? Has it been tested at the track under controlled conditions and then tweaked to improve stopping distances based on the track results? (Because real world testing almost always ends up causing the engineeers to tweak the design a bit.)

You picked a very bad metric to compare Wilwood against, since they are notorious for the amount of flex under pressure. I would be very interested in understanding the test set-up used in your specific example because I have seen testing results that show the Alcon to be twice as stiff as the Wilwood. And the Alcon 6-piston is NOT a very stiff caliper. In general, a 6-piston caliper will flex much more than a 4-piston caliper from the same company.

To translate the academic discussion of caliper flex into a real world benefit, a stiffer caliper will have less pedal travel and more linear braking at the track.I disagree. There's a very big difference between the products cranked out by Precision Brakes and the StopTech kit. The StopTech is a kit you can live with on a daily basis, even here in the Northeast. The Wilwood based kits run into all sorts of maintenance issues in this part of the country. I know, since I maintain a few of them. And paying $1,200 for a kit that lengthens your stopping distances on the street is not my idea of an upgrade. 120 percent or more of the factory front brake torque is going to hurt your single stop performance. Sure it will be fade free longer at the track, but are you willing to add 6 feet to your 60-0 stopping distance on the street?
I strongly agree with this statement! There is just too much marketing fluff out there and too many wild claims.

For a good laugh, check out http://www.brakewarehouse.net/ and read the claim about cooling being improved 40 percent by drilling your rotors! Come on! Of the three mechanisms for getting rid of heat from your rotors, convection is only 25 percent of the total. Radiation is 50 percent and the other 25 percent conducts into your wheel bearings, wheels, calipers, and brake fluid. How is drilling some holes and removing mass from the rotors going to improve cooling by 40 percent?

I've seen people selling home brew big brake kits claiming a 30 percent reduction in stopping distance. Get real! It won't happen.

Be very skeptical of all claims and ask for test results. Find out what other folks are running and who is winning races. Don't get all your information from someone with a financial interest in your buying decision. (Sadly, that includes me.)

Brando222

iTrader: (4)

I was hoping to use this set of Brembos from a JDM Mitsubishi Evolution 7. I don't know if the rears will fit, they seem pretty big, but the fronts look like they might fit. I was hoping somebody might be able to help me get some Brembos cheap, without ending up with a poor performing Brembo system. I will provide all the measurements and numbers I found and performed on the calipers, hopefully someone can tell me if they would fit without too much hassle, and more importantly if they would fit and work right at the same time. Thanks in advance!

Fronts (Found 2 numbers on each caliper 20713701 & 20713601)

Approximate Measurements
Caliper Length 12"
Width 6 1/2"
Height 4 3/4"
From centers of each bolt Approx. 6 1/4"

Pads Length 5 3/16" Width 2 3/8"

Rears (2 Numbers on each caliper 1 207139 & 207140)
One caliper also had 2 O's in a circle, and the other had 2 9's in a circle as well.

Caliper Length 7"
Width 6"
Height 4"
From centers of each bolt 5 1/2"

Pads Length 3 1/16" Width 2"

Brando222

iTrader: (4)

Another pic

mcclaskz

I spoke briefly w/ BJ at Shuitemaker and he told me that they have been using the stock Track Brembos in all of their races thus far in the Grand-Am series. I believe they changed rotors and pads, but that seemed to be the extent of the modification. Who knew?

racin

iTrader: (1)

I believe that is due to rules compliance for that series.

mcclaskz

My point is that they have not had problems with the system.

little_rod

Since Mr. Zeck chimed in, this trend has gotten strangly quiet.

Well, Zeck is the man, and he is the one on this site that I trust most when it comes to brakes. He has explained how aftermarket brakes are good for people who don't track there cars. Just too hard for me to spend two grand on it, although I know it is worth it in performance and looks of my brakes.

I would like a cheaper alternative, but I don't want my braking performance to get worse!!! Kinda like those exhausts that are out that make your performance go down, what a waste of money. Guess you still get what you pay for, although sometimes you can scarifice some things and still get the things you want at the price you want.

racin

iTrader: (1)

Well, as I said, I'm trying to put together a large pile of information in a way that is not so large to read, and easy to understand. It seems that he and I believe the same things, however, so I obviously welcome his input! As I said up the page a bit, I just need some time. I have a business to run and other indulgences to persue as well...

little_rod

Oh, that's cool dude. Just trying to keep up with this stuff, cause I, among many others, are really interested in a brake upgrade without having to give an arm away for it. Maybe just a finger or two, but not an arm. Heck, might even give up a hand for it.

Any info you can give would be much appreicated.

Russell (Dallas)

So a Wilwood SL6 CNC milled billet aluminum caliper that uses grade 8 and aircraft hardware is less expensive than the material used on AP/Brembo/StopTech/Alcon? Care to provide specific material differences between all the different calipers listed? In regards to dust boots, yes they CAN lessen the 'maintenance' that has to be done on any brake system, but they can also melt when pushed hard, which I have seen happen on other brake systems, including StopTech. So, it is a trade off. BTW, I have been running my custom Wilwood kit on my 300TT for 2.5 years and have never had to rebuild a caliper. Nor have any of my customers. A little brake cleaner and clean rag on the pistons is all that is needed when doing a pad change.


That is simply not an accurate statement. Wilwood does indeed make their own brake kits, go to their web site, read their news section about customers wins in various classes using their kits, including the competitive GrandAM Cup series. Wilwood has PROVEN designs that work on the race track, you can continue to bash Wilwood, but you can't argue their racing success and 26 years of experience - they've got a hell of a lot more WINS than StopTech. Let me qualify my statement by stating that I do not sell Wilwood brake kits. I am one of THOSE companies that just uses some of their products. In my case, SL6 calipers and sometimes brake pads.


Our kit (RMS Horsepower, www.350zbrakes.com) was designed by engineers with racing backgrounds. The focus of the kit was to design a well balanced, highly effective big brake kit to compete with the 14" kits on the market, for less cost AND to fit under stock 17" rims. Our kit uses Wilwood SL6 calipers. Piston bore sizes were matched to be balanced with the stock master cylinder, abs and rear brakes (our rear kit will also be appropriately matched, we are currently waiting for the caliper we want to use to be available in the proper piston sizes - because balance IS important) . Our rotor hats and brackets are custom designed using AutoCad. Our rotor hats are CNC machined out of 6061 aluminum (the same as AP etc, yes StopTech uses 7076) and the brackets are made out of 1/4 steel. We use custom speced 13.6"x1.25" race rotors. We use NAS aircraft bolts to attach the rotors and hats. EACH bolt is certified from the manufacturer and is rated to 98,000lbs shear - each. We use 12 bolts per rotor/hat. We use Goodridge lines and grade 8 mounting bolts. We typically sell our kits with the Wilwood Polymatrix Q compound brake pad. A low dust, low noise combination for street/light track use pad (detailed info available on Wilwoods web site).


I believe that Wilwood calipers have a bad rap for flexing under pressure, as you say, because of where they grew up so to speak. They did start in the 'red neck' racing series. Bubba and his brother straping a caliper to their race car using 1/8 sheet aluminum... Fast forward in time to our discussion, the SL6 caliper is extremely stiff and the brackets we designed are extremely strong.

The test I am referring was at the track in not the most 'scientific' of settings, but effective none the less. Multiple people in attendance (talking smack as people do). The test was pretty simple, static measuring point, dial indicator, stand on the brake pedal as hard as possible - measured on both cars by a bystander. The Alcon flexed .5 thousandths more than the SL6 Wilwood. These were kits on Vipers, btw. Obviously mounting brackets play a big role in caliper flex.....I'd be curious to see your data comparing StopTech calipers to all others, for flex. Your general statement about 6 pistons calipers flexing more than 4 piston caliper is WAY too general. There are many 4 piston calipers that are larger than and weaker than 6 piston calipers...

It's getting late and I've got a race this weekend, so I'll pick this up later!

Russell (Dallas)

DA award for me last night working with no light. Our brackets are 1/2 steel, not 1/4 steel.

little_rod

Well, guess we have a difference of opinion here, lol. Russell, I noticed that the kits that you have still cost $2000, same as the stoptechs and others. The whole reason why this argument started from a customer's opinion (like me) was to find lower priced brake kits. The kit that you offer appears to be very close in cost to kits offered elsewhere.

Any opinions on the wildwood kit that is like $1000??? Is it a piece of junk??? Honestly, I didn't think this trend was to see the best kit out there, but a cheap good alternative to the $2000 kits.

GaryK

I don't want to get into this argument, but this piece of advice is to live by when buying any aftermarket product.

I applaud you for putting this out there when you are a vendor yourself.