little_rod

I am looking for the least amount of pain and money. I guess being a test mule has its benefits on the money side, but it could cause a lot of pain and end up costing you a lot of money. Guess I will have to have a little patience, don't want to be the first, unless there is something in it for me.

amolaver

iTrader: (1)

having spent some quality time with my specmiata (factory calipers and discs per rules), one thing not discussed here is baffling me.

pads and fluid

has anyone done any of this 60-0/80-0 testing using quality (track-oriented) pads, some good fluid (ate/motul/ford hd etc), and a good bleed? 99% of people doing DE who have fade, in my experience, suffer it because the street pads they are running just lose their CF at high temps or have two year old oem fluid.

while the miata is a tough comparison (2400 lbs or less), it is amazing what a set of hawk blues do for it. my wrx suffered some pretty significant fade with oem pads despite fresh super blue. put a set of carbotech panther+ all around - all gone, stopped quickly and consistently through 4 20 minute sessions at the glenn and lime rock - and that is heavier than the Z with smaller oem rotors.

i guess i'm not all that suprised that none of the vendors have done such testing - you make a hell of a lot less money selling a set of pads than selling kits of calipers/rotors/hats/etc.

so come on guys - show some stones. lets see a test using a reasonable track compound pad on factory brakes with fresh super blue and a good bleed - skip the brembos (or better yet, include them with oem pads and then also with a good track compound), and just do the base/enthusiast/touring/performance stock rotors/calipers.

i'm not saying there isn't utility in some of the big brake conversions - personally i think they look 'totally ****'. but for bang for the buck performance, i think very few people would be able to fade a set of track-oriented pads with good fluid and a bleed. after all, that's what this thread was about - budget brake upgrades. if you're considering dropping north of $1500 for a front kit, drop a couple hundred on four new sets of pads and some fluid, and see if you're fade doesn't go away.

if you're aiming to make the car look better, by all means, drop the $2K+

ahm

DZeckhausen

I totally agree with you here about the utility of track pads and high temperature (fresh) fluid. That's EXACTLY the advice I give folks who call me up and tell me they want big brakes because they are about to do their first track event! Depending on the car, how it's equipped, and their experience level, I can usually get them by without bigger brakes for a year or two. We start off with real track pads, such as Hawk HT10 or Performance Friction 01 to eliminate pad fade. I have them switch to Motul 600 to take fluid fade out of the picture. (That stuff has a dry boiling point more than 50 degrees F higher than ATE Super Blue Racing) and add some stainless covered Teflon lines to firm up the pedal for improved heel/toe downshifting. If possible, we add ducting or open up existing ducts that were mysteriously closed by the factory (e.g., BMW's M5).

By going this route, I can usually delay the requirement for big brakes by a year or more. It's when they start using R-compound tires and getting to the top of the Intermediate skill level groups that they usually run out of brake capacity. (My Miata customers usually don't have enough horsepower to ever be forced into a big brake upgrade!)

Often, folks will make the jump to big brakes sooner because they just don't like the hassles of changing pads before and after each event. The big brakes from Brembo and StopTech make this much easier. Wilwoods are a snap for pad changes too.

There are plenty of customers who will insist on the big brake option NOW because they want the peace of mind of knowing they won't ever have to worry about brakes, even as their skill level and speeds increase. I can usually get those folks to admit that looks also play a major part in their decision to jump straight into the big brakes.

StopTech doesn't do 60-0, 80-0, 100-0 tests with track pads because it just wouldn't make any sense for them to do so. The reason they do platform testing is to make sure they've optimized their kits. This is an engineering exercise for them and often results in caliper piston sizing changes. The testing helps them zero in on the best design. Comparing their kit to factory brakes gives them a baseline to start from.

A series of such tests using track pads would provide no additional data and the results would look the same as the factory brake tests, with the only difference being the lack of fading during the 100-0 tests and possibly some improvement in the last couple of 80-0 runs. Where the track pads come into play is in the ability to sustain the stock braking performance over a longer period of time, say 25 minutes, under racing conditions. Doing a lap time comparison at Willow Springs between stock and race pads would be a meaningful comparison. There's no question that track pads make a huge difference.

racin

iTrader: (1)

Sorry I have been away from this thread so long. I was out of state, and now I will try to catch up. Not quite sure which info will still be relevant, but I will respond to this post. If you check here
http://www.ntechengineering.com/inde...ction=projectz
you will see that I tried to get out of the car all I could before changing brakes. Of course I knew that the stock pads would never work for our Z, so they were never even tried. The pads were doing all they could, but the brakes were just not up to the punishment they were experiencing, and they were the track model Brembos.
Now I have seen students and others who have been able to get away with the stock brake setup with upgraded pads, but the times they are achieving indicate that they are not pushing the car as hard. I think most people are educated enough now before hand to know about fresh high performance brake fluid and pads. And by the way, I would not recoomend Ford's HP fluid to anyone who is seriously elevating brake temps. It is just not up to the same level as a Motul RBF600 or AP Racing's HP stuff. I know this from first hand experience as well.
A big brake upgrade is most effectively put to good use to handle elevated brake temperatures for INDEFINITE periods of time. Will they lessen stopping distances? Only if your brakes are not up to the task of locking up your wheels, or after repeated stops when fade stops lock up from being possible. Bigger brakes become more useful as you increase speed and traction. If you gain more traction, your brakes will have to work harder to acheive lock up. When your brakes become unable to accomplish that, you need more brakes. The only other thing you can tune with the brake upgrade you choose is how they feel to you as you use them.
The point of this whole thread started out with a question about the ability for less expensive brake kits to meet the needs of the person who posed the question. My response was that we needed much more info from that person about the car, his driving, intended uses and tracks, etc. I also claimed that you get what you pay for, and I still stand firmly by the things that I said. Somewhere, we went way off track with this discussion, though it has been interesting and informative to read. But we may have muddied the water so much that the answers cannot ever hope to be found, even though I think they truly are there.
On another note, Russell, it was not my intention to make you feel 'beat up', and I'm sorry you felt that way. Unfortunately, some of the debate which has occurred stems from the fact that we disagree over some basic and some not so basic points, and I guess that naturally is going breed a certain amount of opposition. Given these facts, I think it has gone very well.

If you are still interested in SOME of the test parameters and methodology, let me know, and I will provide what I can. Of course there is a certain amount of proprietary information, but there is plenty available to make it clear that the tests are accurate and repeatable.

D'oh

Racin,

I noticed in your sig. that you went for the 14" Stoptech front kit. Why did you go to that kit over the 13"? Did you expect to find problems with the 13" kit (like when running race tires) or were there other reasons.

I am only asking because so far it sounds like the 13" front kit is sufficient for the Z, so any additional info is appreciated.

Thanks,
D'oh!

racin

iTrader: (1)

It all comes down to heat tolerance. N-tech has been dealing with 3rd generation RX-7's for years, and they are much lighter than the Z, but Project N-tech (a 1994 RX-7) actually used 14" front brakes, and 12.6"rears, with a manual dual master cylinder setup. This route for that car was chosen for the same reason. You want to be sure that the brakes can handle ANYTHING you throw at them, and in the case of the Z, it will get more power and more mechanical grip, but it won't get much lighter, so we need to be sure that we have enough mass in the brakes to do the job. The track model already comes with rotors that are nearly 13" in diameter, and they were not working. Of course, they were not as thick as the StopTech brakes, but the car was still stock as well. For our speeds and intended modification path, the 13" brakes would certainly not be enough. And brake cooling is critical as well.
We are still learning as we go with this car, but that is why we use it. The things we learn are the things that get passed down the line once they are proven to work.
We also found the increased front brake balance to be helpful for control under very hard braking. I worked with StopTech to conceive a different piston size combination for the calipers of the track model Z front kit, as the balance would be different than the non track model, and these subtle changes carry a real world difference which must be accounted for to get 100% out of your brakes.

westpak

iTrader: (19)

Nick,

When will you be releasing the brake cooling kit?

Blue Liquid

Does this imply the use of a 14 inch Stoptech kit up front, and track model Brembo rears?

racin

iTrader: (1)

Actually, I am hoping to have the final prototypes finished by the end of today so that the ducts can be reproduced.
Yes, the 14" front brakes are being used with the track model rear calipers and rotors. We size the front caliper pistons differently for this application.

amolaver

iTrader: (1)

My comments inserted inline:

First off, I think its important to understand where people are coming from, and what they want to do with their car - as DZeckhausen noted, this is the most important thing to realize, and where most vendors fall down. Vendors have something to sell, and prospective customers may or may not need it. It is the vendors job to convince them they do (and then to purchase it from them for their 'help').

You are 'try[ing] to get out of the car all [you] could before changing brakes'. All novices and most intermediates don't have the requisite skills to get this far.

Every DE I've been to, the novice groups (usually twice the number of intermediate/advanced drivers) are on stock brakes. That is, stock disks/calipers/pads. At most, they'll have flushed fresh fluid. A small percentage actually spend the time to get some super blue or ford HD. Very few running in the novice groups had even done pads yet.

Of course they're not pushing the car that hard - they have little/no track experience, and many don't have the basic skills necessary to even cut a decent line, let alone do it at speed. Hence, they are in the novice groups.

Hrm. They may know of it, and some may do the fluid, but as I said, almost no one in the novice groups has done pads. Frankly, most don't need them. No two ways about it, almost everyone who is spending their first/second/third day on a track is unlikely to drive with enough proficiency to fade even oem pads assuming they've got some fresh quality fluid. Vendors convince people to jump from oem pads/calipers to a 14" kit. Kind of like using a 8 pound sledge on a ten penny nail. For the majority of people at a DE, a dedicated track pad (hawk blue, porterfield r4,etc) may be overkill. Some people would be more than satisfied using an axxis metalmaster or porterfield r4s or one of a bunch of combo street/track pads. They may get some fade as they get better on the track, but not having to swap pads for track duty is a real selling point to folks who track their cars two or three times a year.

And here, we part ways. AP racing's fluid has a dry boiling point of 572 degrees, RBF600 is 585. Ford HD is 550 - a whopping 4% worse than AP and 6% worse than Motul. A measurable difference? For sure. One worth dealing with? Maybe. Again, lets make sure we understand who we're talking about here. If joe is going to his first/second/third DE, its a hell of a lot easier to mosey on down to a ford dealer and get four or five pints of HD for $2 a pint than mailorder RBF600 for $10/ea.

Agreed.

Again, I disagree, at least to some extent. I think many/most people putting a big brake kit on their car have not tried to see where the stock brake system stops working for them. Replacing the pads for track duty and using high quality fluid is a much cheaper way to get much better braking at the track, for a whole lot less money.

Without fail, there is more time to be made up for a beginner/intermediate in their driving than through any parts they throw at the car.

And if/when someone decides to do the big brake kit, I haven't seen any real objective data that spending more gets you better kits. Just like everything, being an educated shopper is king. Relying on advice from someone who makes a living selling the components he/she is advising you on is inherently flawed.

By all means, but lets keep your motivation seperate and distinct from everyone elses. I think you're development is a boon to the entire community - it seems, at least to me, that you've spending quite a bit of time, money and effort in understanding where the limits of the different systems of the car are reached as you press it harder and harder. That information is of benefit to everyone, and in my mind, gives you much credibility when a consumer is looking to expand the envelope of the car.

My issue is with people throwing money at expanding the cars envelope, when their own personal envelope is still much, much smaller. I think DZeckhausen's process, taking people along the evolution of pads/fluid/ducting over the course of a year or two (depending on frequency of track-time of course) is a lot more reasonable, and would engender you with your prospective customers, giving you the opportunity for long term relationships with your customers, and good word of mouth advertising.

To close this little diatribe, I'd like to repeat something I said earlier, and hope people are humble and realistic enough to acknowledge it.

Without fail, there is more time to be made up for a beginner/intermediate in their driving than through any parts they throw at the car.

racin

iTrader: (1)

Thank you for your reply. I wish I could figure out how to break the post down into chunks like you have done. It makes it easier to see what you are referring to.
Anyway, your theme is that I apear to be trying tro sell EVERYBODY the biggest, baddest kits I can find, and I can tell you that this is not the case. My first post on this was to ask for MUCH more info from the question asker to correctly gauge his needs.
I do this with all of my customers, so I did it here. There is a path that a new driver takes, but sometimes new owners of a car are not new drivers. So you ask the right questions. There have been MANY occassions where I have talked somebody OUT of buying a part from me that they do not need in my view. I try to be honest in my opinions and in my knowledge. People appreciate this, and return to you because they trust you. We've built a good name in the more than 5 years of being in business, and it comes partially from the time we take to figure out what a customer really needs. The direction that this debate took had nothing to do with actually trying to sell the person asking the question a particular brake kit. It became something of a debate over the merits of one kit over another, at differing price ranges, rather than being able to clearly answer his question.
The 4% difference between the brake fluids mentioned is significant, because it is in a range where the temps live. A novice driver can use the Ford stuff until they pick up the pace and find that after using racing pads and adding cooling ducts they still are reaching temps that the Ford fluid has trouble with.
I drove a 1985 RX-7 at Sebring one time, and with the Ford fluid, I was boiling it and losing the brakes. I switched over to Motul at lunch, and drove the rest (hottest) part of the day with the RBF, and never had another issue. Of course I tried to bleed the Ford stuff prior to changing, so it was not air. The Ford fluid was put in the night before, from a fresh set of bottles, so it had not absorbed moisture. Four percent change in fluid temperature is more significant when you look at the difference in temps of the rest of the components it takes to arrive at the temp difference at the fluid.
Our DE days include some instructions on how to prepare the car PRIOR to arrival, and it outlines things such as fluid change and upgrade, and pads, etc.. Our tech line is looking for at the very least fresh fluid that is not leaking. My experience as an instructor has been that most of them have at least had the system flushed and fresh fluid installed. Some have upgraded to a Hawk HP+ or so, and some have gone so far as adding more agressive pads and fluid.
It is my opinion that I would rather do more than necessary for the brakes, than not enough. You CAN get killed out there, so I want to minimize the risks of things that are in my control. In 1998 I made the foolish mistake of not changing over to racing brake pads for a session at Summit Point. The car (94 RX-7) was having boost issues, and I was just out trying to sort that out, and figured that my speeds would be kept low enough not to be an issue. WRONG!!! I went straight off at turn one with overheated brake pads, through the gravel traps, grass and sand. No harm was done, but it was not a pleasant experience, and the last time I took my braking capability lightly.
Anyway, I think we may agree on more than it seems, and perhaps some of it gets lost in the translation from brain to fingers, but I think it is important for you to know that N-tech DOES try very hard to figure out what a customer needs, rather than just try to sell and install parts. Hopefully I have clarified at least this point.
There is truth to what you say as well about the average student, but I think that it is sometimes dangerous to try to anticipate who the average student is, as well as what the average student brings to the track with them. Each situation is really incredibly unique.

amolaver

iTrader: (1)

I owe you an apology - because you are the one speaking up, my comments regarding vendors selling people things they may or may not need comes across as relating to your company, and that was/is not my intent.

I do believe that many of the companies that show up here, as well as any of the other forums that spring up (like i-club/nasioc.com after the WRX introduction) around an exciting new car are fly-by-night, incompetent, profiteering fools. Many of the purchasers of their products are ignorant, and instead of taking the time to understand the ramifications of this part or that, purchase anything that is available and seems 'sexy'.

Reading through your development of the Z, it is evident to me that that description does not apply to you, and I hope no one infers that I was picking you out of the vendors as plying wares in the guise of advice.

If business turns around, and I want to develop my Z's braking, I certainly wouldn't hesitate to pick up the phone and talk to you about it - your testing and experience would be a valuable tool for anyone capable of going farther than stock-type brakes will take them. That is, if my specmiata doesn't become a large(er) money pit than it already is

ahm

racin

iTrader: (1)

Thank you for clarifying your point. Spec Miata, huh? You will spend the rest of your life trying to wedge that last n'th of a degree of performance from that car with the competition being so vast and fierce!! All hope for you and your Z is lost... !!! I guess that is if you are anything like me. No Spec Miata here. It would kill me and end my marraige too.

little_rod

Well, this trend has told me one thing through it all. It made me evaluate what I really wanted out of a brake system. I had to be true to myself, as I know I don't want to track my car much at all. So, if I want to do anything with the track, all I will worry about is pads and fluid. Really, it comes down to the fact that I like how they look, and that would have been the main reason for my purchase. Sure, I was thinking at first that I wanted the additional performance, but really, I probably won't use it, all I need is pads and fluid to do anything that I plan on doing.

So, the only upgrade I will consider now is some crossdrilled and slotted rotors. Alot cheaper, and it gives me what i want. Thanks to all that contributed to this decision in this great trend, and for those out there like me, be true to what you are really looking for out of a brake kit before you go out there spending a bunch of money on something you don't need at all. Spend it on something that you can get more out of, whether it is the looks you want or performance.

westpak

iTrader: (19)

I will attest to Nicks's (racin) intentions as a business owner and car enthuisiast, I personally know him as he was my instructor at Sebring. I think we are lucky to have someone like him doing what he is doing instead of just taking the same aproach as others and just offering all and any 350Z products out there. He is taking the great approach by doing one thing at a time to see how it improves the car and how far he can take the car, what he ends up with will be for the higher level driver but we will all be able to see what that is and decide based on our own how far we need to go, I can't wait until he is done with brakes and takes on power mods.

To add to his integrity, I was looking at buying the 13" Stoptech kit (I have non Brembo) and after he got to know me (I will never get to his level, too chicken) he offered me his Brembo's at a great I mean great price instead of trying to sell me on the Stoptechs.

To show how he is doing with a stock Track model here are some times comparison from Sebring:
996 Porsche Turbo 2:39 Stock Tires
S2000 2:39 Slicks
Z06 2:32 Slicks

Nick 2:38 Stock tires

westpak

iTrader: (19)

Smart choice, the stock brakes are fine for the street, the people that get the big kits and do not track the car are just doing it for looks, you don't even need to upgrade if you just do autox.

Keep in mind that if you might track the car I have heard to stay away from xdrilled rotors as they tend to crack.

little_rod

Yeah, I have heard about the cracking and such, but I have also heard that the rotors that are drilled after they are cast are the worse ones and those are the ones you don't want. Correct?

What is funny about your post to me is that all I would probably do is autox, we don't have any real tracks around here, lol.

EnthuZ

iTrader: (2)

Feeling chatty, sooooooooooo

Just returned from my 5th track day with my Stoptech 13.????kit. My rotor hats are Frigging PURPLE now! (They were black) WTF???? Any annealing or other issues to worry about?

Racin......I didn't believe your post about "spinning the rims on braking"......But Now I'm a believer! Pictures to follow soon.....

Mine spun almost 3 inches with the OEM R040's! I didn't believe it!


BTW.....I use 'um.

Oh yah, I melted my plastic center cap tangs!


Now, about that cooling kit?

D'oh

The hats are probably black anodized, which over time can fade slightly and look purple (or a very dark blue).

When you say you are "spinning the rims on braking", what does that mean? Does that mean your tires are actually breaking loose from the wheel and rotating separately?

Thanks,
D'oh!

racin

iTrader: (1)

Here is some of the promised test data:

Proceedure: The pressure test that is used is done in 500 psi increments from 0 up to as high as 6000. The high end of the test would only be performed to test the yield strength of different caliper designs. These tests are conducted using a highly accurate pressure gauge, and all deflection measurements are taken from the center of the caliper, and measured from the center out, meaning in both directions from the middle or centerline of where the rotor runs through. Normally, the test is done to 3500 or 4000 psi only, as the yield of the material is generally reached above there.
A mark is made on each caliper to insure that the tests are performed in exactly the same position. The tests can be performed at different temperatures to show how the caliper design is able to handle these high temp conditions.
After each test pressure, the test is done at 0 psi again to make sure that the reference point is still exactly the same for the next test pressure.
When the tests are performed between calipers, they are normalized for piston sizing. The larger the piston sizes of a caliper are, the more flex you will normally encounter for a specific design. You want your applied pressure numbers to be the same for each caliper tested, and this is accomplished through normalizing the test pressure numbers.
The caliper sits on top of a test block which simulates the rotor, and there are no brake pads used.
In a test using a StopTech caliper with piston sizes of 44 mm all around, and a Wilwood 6 piston Superlite caliper with piston sizes of 1-1/8"x1-1/8"x1-5/8", we learned the Wilwood was found to have between 2.5 and 3 times the flex of the StopTech caliper at only 1500 psi. The weight of each caliper was the same, as well.
That is a basic run down of how the testing is performed. Hope it gives a bit of insight to the way the tests NEED to be performed to get reliable information.