If you re-read this thread you will notice that my kit is designed to compete with the 14"+ kits on the market that cost $2,500+ and require 18" rims (my kit is 13.6" and fits stock 17" rims). In addition, my kit ONLY uses Wilwood calipers/pads. The hats, rotors and mounting brackets are all custom. Hence, the ~$2,000 price tag.

Most importantly, my comments above were not meant to promote MY kit. They were meant to clarify the misconceptions being spread here about Wilwood components.

I also SPECIFICALLY stated that I thought the less expensive Wilwood based kit from Precision brakes would be a good alternative for 'mc' to consider, compared to the $1,800 StopTech 13" kit.

Obviously the point of the thread got way off topic...

 

That's okay, the debate is much more informative. Thanks again for the interest.

How important are the dust boots. I completely fried mine (stock) in my first HPDE weekend. The dealership replaced them. Are they less necessary on multi-piston brakes? I noticed that my factory service manual says to rebuild them if this happens. Is not having them a trade off for performance (better performance=shorter life span)? Why are they not on the Willwoods. Again, I am ignorant, just trying to understand some of the differences in design.

 

That is cool Russ, I didn't read through the whole trend again before that post, if you stated that you thought the precision brake kit would be a good alternative, that is what I was looking for.

Wish there was some type of testing for the Wildwoods, cause the one thing that still stands out in my mind is Zeck saying that your braking performance could get worse if the kit has not been tested right. Guess going to precision would be the only real answer to this problem. If precision hasn't tested their kit, are they even worth putting on or should we just stay stock??

 

mcclaskz

As you found out, dust boots are a trade off. They are put on street cars to help keep road grime off of the caliper pistons. When you change the pads and have to push the pistons back into the caliper, if there is grime on the piston it could score the piston or damage the piston seal potentially causing a brake fluid leak. So, dust boots are put on to lessening the likelihood of needing to rebuild the calipers as often.

Wilwood does not use dust boots because they are focused mainly on performance and race applications, where high temps are expected - which could cause dust boots to fail. The trade off with the Wilwood calipers is that you have to be diligent when you change the pads, to clean the caliper pistons with brake cleaner and a rag/steelwool, before pushing the pistons back into the caliper. If you are not diligent, then you may have to rebuild the calipers more often. Rebuilding a caliper is pretty easy to do, but as a point of reference, I have never had to rebuild the calipers on my 300ZTT in 2.5 years of street driving and DE's.


little_rod

No issue! There are several companies, including mine and Precision that use Wilwood components on their own designs, in addition to Wilwood offering their own complete kits for certain cars.

I can't comment on any testing that Precision has or has not done on their applications and Wilwood does not offer their own complete kit for the 350.

I have not completed testing of my kit for the 350 and G35 yet, but I have done some testing (although not as in depth or high tech as StopTech) on the kit I developed for the 300, which is very similar to the 350 kit (difference being 12.5"x1.25" rotors vs 13.6"x1.25" rotors for the 350). On the 300 front only kit we got a best 60-0 result of 110' (compared to 126' for stock). 1st cold stop was 115', last stop (of 10) was the 110'. We got a best stop of 105' on our 4 wheel kit. Our testing was done on a measured course as opposed to the radar gun/computer capture tech that StopTech used.

But back to the point of the cheaper kits from Precision, if they dont have any data to provide, maybe they would be willing to provide a kit at cost to someone for testing... can't hurt to ask.

 

I should have been more specific. Given that we are discussing the 350Z platform, Wilwood does not make thir own kit. If you're interested in a kit for your Pinto or Buick (or the new Corvette kit) then Wilwood does indeed have kits for your car. But anything using Wilwood calipers for the 350Z is a 3rd part kit using Wilwood components.

It was not my intention to single you out, Russell. Clearly you have given more thought to your kit design than many other 3rd party vendors. Having been involved in the design of a Wilwood-based Impala SS kit myself, I can appreciate how you can put your heart and soul into a design and what it feels like when folks take shots at it.

My point was that there are lots of kits out there that have been put together with no thought to the performance of the overall system, but merely answer the question "How can we make this fit?" This isn't just the case with Wilwood components. I've seen it with Porsche Boxter calipers, some Brembo calipers (they don't sell directly to 3rd part kit makers any more), and AP calipers. in fact, AP Racing doesn't import kits to the USA, so any "AP Racing big brake kits" you see here are either 3rd party or, if they are VERY expensive, then they are grey market genuine AP kits.

At least you are looking at things like the balance issue, and for that I commend you. At quick glance (and making some assumptions on pads), it appears your 4-wheel kit may be pretty close to an ideal balance. Do you know if the Polymatrix Q compound brake pad has a higher or a lower Cf than the stock 350Z pads? I'm not familiar with that pad's performance.

Quote:

Our kit (RMS Horsepower, www.350zbrakes.com) was designed by engineers with racing backgrounds. The focus of the kit was to design a well balanced, highly effective big brake kit to compete with the 14" kits on the market, for less cost AND to fit under stock 17" rims. Our kit uses Wilwood SL6 calipers. Piston bore sizes were matched to be balanced with the stock master cylinder, abs and rear brakes (our rear kit will also be appropriately matched, we are currently waiting for the caliper we want to use to be available in the proper piston sizes - because balance IS important) . Our rotor hats and brackets are custom designed using AutoCad. Our rotor hats are CNC machined out of 6061 aluminum (the same as AP etc, yes StopTech uses 7076) and the brackets are made out of 1/4 steel. We use custom speced 13.6"x1.25" race rotors. We use NAS aircraft bolts to attach the rotors and hats. EACH bolt is certified from the manufacturer and is rated to 98,000lbs shear - each. We use 12 bolts per rotor/hat. We use Goodridge lines and grade 8 mounting bolts. We typically sell our kits with the Wilwood Polymatrix Q compound brake pad. A low dust, low noise combination for street/light track use pad (detailed info available on Wilwoods web site).

I'm a bit concerned that you chose to use the cheaper 6061 aluminum for your hats. The 7075 aluminum used by StopTech and Brembo is much more expensive and harder to work with, but it is significantly stronger and can survive many more heat cycles before failing. If your target audience is folks who will never race their cars, then I'm a bit less concerned. But I think you should reconsider the use of 6061 on your hats, especially since you are bolting the rotors firmly to the hats rather than using a floating mechanism to allow for the differential expansion of the iron friction ring and the aluminum hats.

Quote:

I believe that Wilwood calipers have a bad rap for flexing under pressure, as you say, because of where they grew up so to speak. They did start in the 'red neck' racing series. Bubba and his brother straping a caliper to their race car using 1/8 sheet aluminum... Fast forward in time to our discussion, the SL6 caliper is extremely stiff and the brackets we designed are extremely strong.

They have a bad rap for flex because they deserve it. I'm talking to StopTech about releasing their flex charts to the public in order to back up my statements. I hope to have an answer in the next few days. The charts are pretty compelling.

Quote:

The test I am referring was at the track in not the most 'scientific' of settings, but effective none the less. Multiple people in attendance (talking smack as people do). The test was pretty simple, static measuring point, dial indicator, stand on the brake pedal as hard as possible - measured on both cars by a bystander. The Alcon flexed .5 thousandths more than the SL6 Wilwood. These were kits on Vipers, btw. Obviously mounting brackets play a big role in caliper flex.....I'd be curious to see your data comparing StopTech calipers to all others, for flex. Your general statement about 6 pistons calipers flexing more than 4 piston caliper is WAY too general. There are many 4 piston calipers that are larger than and weaker than 6 piston calipers...

I admire your desire to experiment and your clever set-up. It's the sort of thing I might have tried a while ago in the absense of a laboratory environment. Unfortunatly, some uncontrolled variables conspired to make the results meaningless and the conclusion invalid. Here's why:

In order to compare caliper flex, you need to control the test variables. Your experiment should be comparing caliper flex as a function of clamping force. Since clamping force is the product of system pressure times caliper piston area, you need to normalize the results when comparing two calipers with different piston sizes.

In your Viper experiment, you compared a Wilwood caliper against an Alcon. The Alcon calipers, on average, have much larger pistons than Wilwood. I would surmise that was the case here. If I wanted to rig the results of a test like that, I would install a set of Zeckhausen brand calipers with 26mm pistons on my Viper and a set of Russell brand calipers with 44mm pistons on another Viper and then run your experiment. Even if the Russell caliper was much stiffer, the clamping force would be greater for the same system pressure and the Russell caliper would flex more. It would be an unfair test.

Going back to your field experiment, there are several other variables that were uncontrolled. The system pressure was not calibrated on a test bench, rather it was generated by some guy pressing as hard as he could. Aside from the rather obvious potential for pressure variance, there's also the issue of equipment differences. In 2001 the Viper went to a different master cylinder. Were the two cars of the same model year? Another variable is the number of heat cycles the caliper has experienced. As a caliper goes through heat cycles (and I'm talking about the type generated by a track car, not on the street) the caliper loses its tempering and becomes more flexible. Was the Alcon caliper old and the Wilwood caliper new?

The StopTech tests were done on a lab bench with calibrated system pressure and instrumentation to measure flex. Calipers were brand new out of the box. Graphs were produced to measure flex as a function of system pressure and they were normalized to account for the difference in the size of the pistons. Calipers were taken all the way up to 6,000 psi. One exception was the Wilwood 4-piston Dynalite caliper which fractured at 3,500 psi. The StopTech and Brembo calipers deformed at 6,000 psi, but they didn't break.

The Wilwood 6-piston caliper showed twice the deflection of the Alcon 6-piston. The Brembo F40 was significantly stiffer than the Alcon and the StopTech much stiffer than the Brembo. Bottom line - Wilwood is not a great performer in the area of stiffness.

 

Zeck,

Appreciate your comments about my 4 wheel kit. My front kit (www.350zbrakes.com), is also very well balanced with a piston volume of 4.04 sq inches vs 3.55 sq inches for the stock front calipers. So no issues with brake balance or master cylinder volume there either.

In regards to the Q compound pad, it has a coef. of friction that ranges from ~.38 at 100degrees to ~.47 at 500 degrees to ~.40 at 800 degrees. This is the pad that I typically recommend to persons only doing a few DE's/year, especially since it is very low dust and low noise. If someone is doing a lot of DE's I'd point them to a B or C compound from Wilwood or equivalent from PFC/KFP Magnum. The B pad has a Cf of ~.48 at 100 degrees and rises to over .60 from 600 degress through 1,300 degrees. But, just like all competition pads they dust a lot and will squeal when cold.

BTW, anyone interested can download Wilwoods Polymatrix cataloge from their web site for all the details...


In regards to the 6061 vs the 7075, I think your comments are relative. There is no question that 7075 is stronger, but the 6061 is MORE than strong enough to with stand years of abuse of street/track events. I know that the AP kits being sold for the 350z are made with 6061.....I think we will just have to disagree on this item.

In regards to caliper flex, I stated before that my 'experiement' was not a controlled scientific experiement. It was a real world example. Based on the kits on the cars. You can certainly say that you need to normalize the experiement, but what really matters is how it works in the real world. Clamping force in my experiement was based on how much the operator (driver) could push on the pedal, based on the kits on the respective cars. I guess we certainly didn't take leg fatigue into the equation though! ;-) The tests wern't rigged, they used real world applications.

All other things being equal, if one caliper can apply 3000psi of clamping force and another can 'only' apply 2500psi of clamping force, but the tires lock up at 2000 psi of clamping force (due to pad Cf and limits of tires), which one is better? A lot of variables are involved...

In regards to the StopTech testing, what specific calipers were used for the tests. You said the Dynalite 4 piston calipers failed at 3,500psi...well which Dynalite? The cast, billet or forged version. There are huge difference in rigidity between them all, were all different versions tested? Same point goes to the other calipers in the tests. So your statements about the testing results are not specifically valid to this discussion without knowing the details of the calipers in question. In addition, how important is it that one caliper flexes more at 6,000 psi than another? How much flex are we talking about between the calipers, 1 thousandths, 8 thousandths? The brake system on the 350z does not get anywhere near 6000 psi, besides, even the very high quality StopTech brake lines would fail at that level.....

An important point is that Wilwood offers MANY different types/styles of calipers for different applications. Anyone considering a Wilwood 'based' kit SHOULD call Wilwood's technical department directly to ask about the appropriateness (sp?) of the calipers being offered in the kit for their particular car. I can tell you that they would not recommend a 4 piston Dynalite cast caliper as an option for a front kit on a 350Z (however a 4 piston billet NDL would be fine on the rear). However, they would certainly recommend the billet SL6 as a great choice for a front caliper.

You also didn't mention that a HUGE component of brake SYSTEM flex is dependent on the mounting bracket. You can have caliper A that is twice as rigid as caliper B, but the mounting bracket for caliper A may be 4 times less rigid than caliper B. Which total equation is better/worse?

My overall point is, lab testing is great and can add a lot of value, but there are tremendous variables in every total brake system....

 

In respect to the original intent of this thread (Less Expensive Big Brake Kits), and since my kit does not qualify at $2K, I'm going to end my input. We can certainly start another thread on these other topics and continue the

My parting comment to those looking for the cheap alternatives is to simply do your research. If it is a Wilwood based kit, I'd recommend talking with Wilwood directly about the setup. I'm sure they would not endorse a poor choice of components....

 

That's exactly what I'm saying. But let me be very specific. Your single stop performance under the type of controlled conditions that exist using radar to measure 60-0 distance may get worse. Those test conditions are described here: http://www.zeckhausen.com/Testing_Brakes.htm

By doing repeated testing of 60-0, 80-0, and 100-0 stop tests as well as testing the interaction between ABS and stability control systems with the new brakes, it is possible to zero in on the optimum selection of caliper piston sizes in order to reduce stopping distance.

This is not meant to imply that a kit which hasn't been fine tuned by such a process will offer no benefits. Assuming the kit in question isn't so rear-biased that it causes dangerous instabilty under braking, it can still offer some of the following benefits: greater abilty to absorb and shed heat, better pedal feel, and quicker reaction time in panic stops. Russell's Wilwood kit may look and feel great.

All I'm saying is that, unless a kit has gone through this exhaustive process of testing on your specific platform, it probably hasn't been optimized and you are leaving stopping distance on the table.

When we tried to test the 4-wheel StopTech kit, back in December, we were rapidly running out of time and daylight. We had already tested the Track and non-Track factory brakes, and the 332mm front and the 355mm front StopTech kits. We were only going to get one shot at the 4-wheel kit that day, so we guessed on the front caliper piston size based on our data from the other kits. We went two sizes smaller. We guessed wrong. The first stop from 60mph was the best of the day. We were ecstatic and thought we had hit a home run. The next stop was worse and the subsequent stops got progressivly longer until we decided to quit and try another day.

Even if you have careful engineering and a reasonable intuition on the behavior of the platform, that's not a guarantee that your kit will work well. It needs to be tested. That's why, if someone comes up with a new-fangled kit design and lots of promises of "huge reductions in stopping distance" and just needs to get 10 people together in a group buy to have the kits built, you should run away! The proper way is to build and test a prototype and then iterate, if necessary, around that design until it's perfect. Using the same reasoning, I wouldn't be ordering any Rotora kits until they've got the pads properly aligned with the rotors rather than hanging 5mm off the top!

 

OK, I talked to precision, and they said that they do offer a kit for the 350Z in a 13" and 14". He said that there has been no extensive testing of the kits, although they do have a prototype with the 14" kit installed on a Z right now.

The 13" kit does cost $1100 and the 14" runs $2000. The 13" is a base kit that has 4 piston calipers and a cross-drilled, slotted, OR plain rotor. You SHOULD be able to get the rotor drilled and slotted, but that would cost more.

One thing I do have a problem with is the lack of testing, as they said that they haven't sold a 13" kit for the Z, while they have sold some 14" ones. They said that they would think about a group buy, if we were interested in that.

Also, I noted that the rotors were drilled or slotted after they were cast. This maybe an issue, cause I don't want rotors that will warp, of course. Don't know how big or small this issue is. Starting to sound like you get what you pay for, is it worth it brake guys?? I know I am asking you about competitors, but you guys have been cool, so I would like your opinion.

 

Sorry to be getting back to this post so late. Had a busy weekend and a busy week so far. I see that some of the info I was going to supply has already been discussed since my last post, so I will leave most of that alone. There is more to share, however, and I made a decision to go ahead and do so despite the thread being dormant for a few days.

First I want to say that this whole thread has been conducted in a very good manner, and I intend to continue presenting informantion in the same way. Cudos to all involved.

I noticed on the RMS web page, it states that the rear brakes on the Z are "highly under-utilized". On the contrary, I have found the stock system to be a bit too rear brake biased (see the Project NT350 section of our web site for more on those findings). This is borne out by all of the upgraded braking systems which attempt to balance them out, bring a larger front brake torque value. The RMS kit takes this change the furthest with the front only kit having a brake torque number that is aproximately 147 percent of the stock, non-track model front brake torque number. That is a LOT of front bias adjusting.
The four wheel kit appears to come in on much better terms, and is only slightly more front biased as a set than the stock setup. Seems like that kit was worked out pretty well. Only issue with the added brake torque available is that your braking input becomes over amplified. The brakes will be much more touchy, though they will require less effort. You will lose modulation sesitivity. The RMS 4 wheel kit is quite heavily over amplified. (shameless plug to follow) We are working on a solution to this issue for all of the big brake upgrade kits, though we cannot yet promise a solution can be found easily. It seems that Nissan gave the car too much rear brake bias, and to solve that problem means adding front brake torque, which makes the sensitivity issue worse.
While I'm picking apart this particular system (I'll get to others in a moment), I wanted to add that the coefficient of friction plot for the Wilwood pads seems quite non-linear, though the upper end roll off is found by some to be more to their liking. The other down sides as I see them to using these components is the use of the 6061 aluminum hats. 6061 will degrade faster under repeated heat cycles than 7075 aluminum will, on top of other things already mentioned in other posts.
The 350Z has an issue with the brakes called 'knock back', which is when the rotor runs sideways through the channel in the caliper, knocking the brake pads back away from the rotor. This is caused by the bearing assembly and the hub assembly and flange flexing more than they should when there is a side load applied to them. The problem is exacerbated by where the calipers are placed on the front of the Z. The top and bottom ends of the rotor are where the effects of knock back would be worst, and the 9 and 3 o'clock positions are where it would be the least intrusive. Nissan did not use the 9 or 3 position, so the effects are felt more. What it manifests itself as is a pedal that goes down towards the floor more than it should on initial pedal application after a hard turn. This can be dangerous because it makes pedal travel unpredictable. Using a floating rotor system will help alleviate this problem, though it cannot solve it. Using the solid mounting of the hat to the rotor offers no relief. I will say, however, that mounting the rotor solidly to the hat does reduce the chance of failure due to wear between the rotor and hat connection. Those who choose to use the floating hat assembly systems should regularly check them for wear at the mounting points.
A caliper used on the street should have a dust seal on it. That is my plain and simple opinion on that subject.
I have asked StopTech about the caliper flex tests that they have run, and have the same information that Dave supplied. These tests were done in a controlled, scientific manner, and the results speak for themselves about caliper stiffness.
One point I want to make about caliper stiffness, is that I have learned that simply using a forged caliper as opposed to a cast caliper will not automatically mean that the forged one is stiffer. I learned that the elastic modulus numbers for coresponding pieces of metal will be essentially the same or may show higher for a casting. Forging will add long term integrity and durability over the many heat cycles that a caliper will go through over the years, but it is not a factor when comparing components against each other. Billet pieces also have their own issues, as the pieces were cut by cutting through the grain structure of the metal, which weakens the overall structure when compared to a forging. And forget about mono block calipers which have no reinforcing bolts running through them. StopTech has some very good info available on their web site discussing why an aluminum monoblock caliper is not as stiff as one which is bolted together correctly. A forged caliper will have a nicer finish, and due to having smaller pores, will tend to oxidize less.
I also assume that the rotors being used in the kit are by Coleman? If so, it has been our experience that they are softer than other manufacturers rotors, and will tend to wear out quicker. They are attractively priced, however.
The other issue to concern yourself with is whether or not you have a track model brake setup. If so, if you are only going to get a front brake upgrade, your pistons really need to be sized differently than if you have the non track model rear brakes. I worked with StopTech directly on this, and we came up with varied sizing for the two combinations. They are the only kit producer that I have talked with that was willing to work on that with me, which I applaud.
So, in conclusion to my statements, let me say that it appears that the systems are fairly close in price that we have been discussing here. I mentioned some of the things that I see as negatives about the RMS system, but let me also say that the brake pad pricing seems reasonable, and the rotor replacement cost is certainly less. The floating rotor system does necessitate some monitoring to insure that wear is not an issue. But in the end, it seems that it comes back to what I said towards the beginning of my involvement: You get what you pay for here. It IS up to each person to research the choices, but they must also be able to find or be given FACTUAL data, of which some had been lacking in this thread, and it is the responsibility of those selling WHICHEVER kits they do, to provide the correct and honest information.

 

Guys thank you all again for the great info and manner in which it was discussed. I will be trying to use my Sentra brakes one last time when I go to VIR South in Sept. I will try to duct air directly to the rotors and will be running Panther XPs front and Panther + rears. I will also cut off the dust shields. Anyone with other experience please chime in. In my previous experience with this course I used up a set of Bobcats in the rear and warped the set of Panther+ I had in front in one weekend. As I did last time, I am running SS lines, Motul 600 and non stock pads.

 

A little blurb on why high priced brake kits are not necessarily better brake kits.

I have seen prices for brakes for my car from your competitors and both were similarly priced - around $2600. These were kits using 4 piston calipers and unspecified (as to one or two piece) rotors. Now you tell me that you can provide this kit for less than half the price. So you have my interest. Are their kits overpriced? Or are yours underpriced or of lower quality?

The kits from the companies you mention are in our opinion overpriced, not very much considering how they are running their business though. They probably have an outside source manufacture their interface components and the cost of those parts include profit for the company (s) concerned. They use calipers of foreign origin (probably from imported raw materials to start with) which have been stepped on a few times before they paid import duty on them (that's if the company is importing them and not paying someone else to do it [at a price]). Many calipers are overpriced from the factory before any distributing costs are built in., thanks to an inflated reputation based on an association with the racing industry. With these hurdles in the way of their product, you have to remember also that they sell their products through a distributor network and everyone needs to make a buck along the way. They can't undercut their distributors so everyone involved has to overprice the kits. Our situation is quite different. We manufacture all interface components in house. We can walk 40 yards from where we sit here and touch the parts being made. We use the least expensive calipers, yet the quality of Wilwood calipers is unsurpassed. Because they are manufactured by Wilwood in California from American raw materials, they are really affordable. If you do some research you will find Wilwood components in NASCAR, Bush GN, CART Indy, SCCA and 80-90% of club racers.

Wilwood has been in business for over 30 years because they have good reliable products that are affordably priced. We have been involved with Wilwood as a wholesale distributor for 14+ years and have no intention of changing brands. We do not yet have a large distribution network. You are dealing with the source. On top of that we aren't greedy, we think a 100% markup is adequate to keep us in business and allow growth. 300-400% markups are not unheard of in the industry. With our philosophy of Price, Selection, Quality and Service, we plan to be bigger than all the other recognized brake industry leaders within the next 5 years.

 

God, I don't know if this trend helped me, or made me even more confused, lol.

 

Clear as mud. Which supplier is that?

 

WOW, I guess I should stop selling my kit and join the StopTech religion!

I said that I would not add more to this thread because it was getting off topic of 'less costly' brake kits (ie: under $2k), and my kit is not under $2k, but feel I must.

Racin- First, curious as to your formula for coming up with the 147% front bias calculation of my kit.

Also curious as to the values for the various StopTech, AP and Brembo kits calculated with your formula. Please provide us all with the Factual data so we can openly compare this value.

Please enlighten everyone as to what this means...does this mean the weight of a human hair applied to the brake pedal will launch everyone through the wind shield?! Your statement is totally SUBJECTIVE and misleading!

Racin - you state ....referring to my kit. However, you never address the 'other' kits...

I have to admit, I am feeling somewhat by your post for offering a price competitive product that StopTech, AP, Brembo and other Wilwood kits must compete against.... Maybe it is that time of the month and I'm just being sensitive.

I think everyone in this discussion would have to agree that AP makes a pretty darn good brake system. I mean, they must since they have so much racing success, right?! And they are part of the Brembo group of companies, right?! And their 14.25" kit is so expensive, right?! You state about my kit Curious that the top of the line AP 14.25" kit ($2,600+) has "two piece modular discs with superior FIXED mount design for reduced wear at mounting points and have 6061 Aluminum brackets with steel inserts for maximum Strength and 6061 T-6 Aluminum Mounting Hats For Light Weight and Superior Heat Management and Aerospace Grade Mounting hardware"
.... hmmmmm, sounds familiar to my kit.....
Is the AP kit less safe and of less quality than the StopTech kit? Is it more safe and of higher quality than my kit? You state you get what you pay for....is someone getting more for their money with the AP 14.25" @ $2,600 than my 13.6" kit @ $2,000?

In regards to caliper stiffness, lets beat the dying horse some more. Lets SEE the FACTUAL data that you are referring to....the results of the tests that were "done in a controlled, scientific manner, and the results speak for themselves about caliper stiffness." So far, only statements delivered as fact have been provided.

This statement and pretty much your whole post is implying, intentionally or not, that I, RMS Horsepower, am providing non-factual and dishonest information. You don't mention any other companies or kits, so this is the only way to take your post.

I CERTAINLY understand that you are trying to focus people on what you believe are differentiating aspects of the kits you sell. What I take exception to is HOW you are delivering your message here. And again, intentionally or not, you are making it 'sound' as if my kit is unsafe and of inferior quality.

It is apparent that this 'discussion' and presentation of 'facts' has become pretty useless...we all have our beliefs.

Please note that I have not 'picked' apart the other kits out there. Why? Because I don't feel I have to negatively sell against my competition to be successful...

It's late...

 

I agree with Russell on this topic. In the brake market you DON'T necessarily get what you pay for. What you are paying for is name recognition NOT how well the brakes stop your car.

If no name barke 'A' and major brand brake 'B' both stopped the car within a foot of each other everytime why would you pay twice as much for the major brand? I think people pay the premium because of name and the selling tactics that the name brand makers use to scare consumers away from a logical choice.

Stating why other brake systems aren't good based on this, that, or the other thing is nothing more than speculation.

My opinion.

Jeff

 

Don't know if they're offering any specials on these 4-Pot AP Racing Stoppers, but they're the ticket if you want serious grip froma caliper. Make sure you find out if Stop Tech has a lot of 'caliper flex' which happens even more as they heat up. The performance after 10-15 stops is what you're looking for. But, droideka is definitely right on not cheaping out on the brakes. I grabbed this link of Steve Millen's site.

<a href="http://www.stillen.com/brakepros_detail.asp?subcat=0&id=32319&page=1
" class="link">

I think Avalon might have their stuff cheaper.. check around.

 

Hi All,

I realize this is my first post so please don't flame me for interjecting...I’ve had some experience with this controversy and have some additional thoughts. This is not a flame to anyone.

I’m a club racing and DE fanatic and have had several different track cars (2 Vipers and 4 different C5/Z06s etc)…all with big brake kits like the ones Russell has put together. I’ve got a lot of track time from all over the country. Yes, it’s a disease!

Since being aware of $$$ is paramount…and what started this thread…I’m surprise that everyone has missed the obvious. Will the kits being discussed fit beneath the factory wheels? Without spacers or required modification to wheel hubs or something else? You see, one can go buy a brake package from discount Joe for $1,000 and have a great deal. Get them home…con the wife for a weekend away…organize your friends for the install party…excitedly install them…getting dirty…scraping your knuckles…being men…then realize your factory wheels DON’T FIT!!! Doh! Super Doh! Now you really have to con the wife because your going another $4gs in for 18” wheels and tires or you try to cinch by using some creepy spacer that ruins your geometry and wheel scrub and makes you look like a dorky, low rider with your wheels jutting out of the fenders! Whew!

I know the package that Russell has assembled bolts on and fits fine without a hint of clearance issues for factory wheels. Almost all aftermarket wheels will fit as well. How do the other brakes clear? Some of the websites say they’ll require 17” wheels…but are those factory wheels? Think…$1 or $2gs for brakes and $4gs for wheels doesn’t sound cheap to me!

Also…although all of the engineering jargon is necessary and cool…it doesn’t always mean what it implies. While caliper stiffness is awesome…anyone going fast doesn’t press the brakes THAT hard! Enter the concept of trail braking…etc! In the real world…we want brakes that are safe, that work consistently every time we want to use them…look cool…stay clean…don’t require a ton of maintenance (we have wives for that)…don’t make me modify my car so I can return it to factory if I sell it…don’t cost too much up front and don’t cost too much to maintain. Oh yeah…we want to be able to work on them without having to employ a former F1 technician! Most all of the kits here are good and will perform very similarly. It’s simply boils down to cost now and cost over time.

Anyway…my .02.

Respectfully submitted,
David Tittle
Former Brake Nerd

 

So Dave, do you have any experience with Willwoods? SL/UL? I agree w/ you on the clearance issue, but personally(since I started the thread) I have upgraded to TE37s so should have not problem.

 

Precision Brakes. Basically they are saying you don't get what you think you are paying for when buying aftermarket brakes. The idea that spending more money will get you better brakes is untrue.

In fact all the extra money spent on big name brakes is pure profit for the company, (for name recognition or racing team association), or overhead for all of the distributors dealers etc. NOT for a better product.

I tend to agree with their statement about brake systems so I purchased 4 wheel brakes from them for less than the Stoptech front kit.

Jeff