Less Expensive Big Brake Kits?
#41
Re: Wilwood
Originally posted by Russell (Dallas)
How about some specific examples of testing from the other companies and specific examples of what Wilwood does not do that they do
How about some specific examples of testing from the other companies and specific examples of what Wilwood does not do that they do
One reason that I strongly favor Stoptech right now, is that they have provided test data (temperature, stopping distance, brake balance) for each of the their 350Z kits. This data is useful for comparison with other kits, but more importantly, it lets the potential consumer know that Stoptech has performed research with their kit on OUR car. I therefore feel comfortable that Stoptech has matched their components to our car and made sure they will work well together. Also, in the past Stoptech has posted on the site and has answered questions in a direct and honest fashion. The combination of these efforts has given me great confidence in the capability of their design and customer service groups.
I would definitely be interested in other kits if they also gave similar attention the our car, and went to similar length to show how their kits function as a system. So far, however, I have not seen any posts from other brake companies other than pictures of their kits or links to sites. While I have high confidence in the quality of the Wilwood components (and those of other brake companies), I have much less confidence in the design of any kits using their parts, simply because I have not seen any test results or reviews.
So, I would definitely like to feel as confident about these other kits as I do about stoptech, but until I hear about their performance in our cars, I simply have no idea how well they will work.
If anyone has any reviews of these other kits in the Z, or knows of any data, please let me know.
Thanks,
D'oh!
#42
Brake test
Fair enough!! I have schedules currently being setup to address that specific request in regards to the kit I offer.
I am still 2 - 3 weeks away from having that data, but will gladly supply it.
I am still 2 - 3 weeks away from having that data, but will gladly supply it.
#43
Well, I am definitely interested in the Wildwoods. I don't think a brake kit should cost $2000, but for a grand, I am more interested. Guess my biggest thing is that I like the front brake kits with the slotted and crossdrilled rotors. But what about the back??? I don't need new calipers back there, but the rotors will definitely look different than the fronts cause they would be stock. Guess I would need to purchase just the rotors for the back so they would match.
Has anyone seen a front kit slotted and drilled, with the back solid??? Does it look crazy?? Think I would want the front brake kit with matching rear rotors, cause I know it would look better. A full 4 wheel kit has always been too much money, but then again, I didn't see any 4 wheel kits in the Wildwoods. How much are they??
Has anyone seen a front kit slotted and drilled, with the back solid??? Does it look crazy?? Think I would want the front brake kit with matching rear rotors, cause I know it would look better. A full 4 wheel kit has always been too much money, but then again, I didn't see any 4 wheel kits in the Wildwoods. How much are they??
#44
Originally posted by mcclaskz
Pardon my ignorance, why would the Willwood kit be any less bullet proof than the Stoptech kit? Do you only sell the Stoptech?
Pardon my ignorance, why would the Willwood kit be any less bullet proof than the Stoptech kit? Do you only sell the Stoptech?
These guys (http://www.precisionbrakescompany.com/custom.html ; not sure about the www.350zbrakes.com thing yet) just sell some brake parts that, when put together, should fit your car. Balance is up to you (or not done at all).
Which is probably why it's cheaper.
Last edited by Buub; 07-30-2003 at 04:34 PM.
#45
Re: Less Expensive Big Brake Kits?
Originally posted by mcclaskz
I talked to some guys at Carbotech around my last track days (when I was having some problems w/ my stock Performance brakes). They informed me that the stock Brembos are actually from the 7 series BMW from a few years ago and were also from another German car. Can anyone establish this as fact? Can we get some calipers from a wreck, buy the mounting brackets, and rotors, and have ourselves a less expensive Brembo option? Anyone? I will probably need a front kit soon when track dates start up again in the fall, but don't want to pay 2K$. Anyone got any pointers?
I talked to some guys at Carbotech around my last track days (when I was having some problems w/ my stock Performance brakes). They informed me that the stock Brembos are actually from the 7 series BMW from a few years ago and were also from another German car. Can anyone establish this as fact? Can we get some calipers from a wreck, buy the mounting brackets, and rotors, and have ourselves a less expensive Brembo option? Anyone? I will probably need a front kit soon when track dates start up again in the fall, but don't want to pay 2K$. Anyone got any pointers?
Let's start by looking at the pads. The Friction Materials Standards Institute (FMSI) publishes detailed specifications on brake pads. Each pad shape is given a unique ID number and you can look up the dimensions, thickness, and description in the FMSI handbook.
The 350Z Track Model uses a 7858-D960 pad. The pad is 4.61" wide and 2.21" tall. The thickness of the friction material is 14.3mm.
350Z Track Model pads
The BMW 7-Series uses a single piston, floating caliper, unless you are talking about the super-expensive ($100,000) 750iL flagship. That uses a two-piston floating caliper. The pad is a 7561-D682 and is 5.82" wide and 2.2" tall. Looking at the drawing below, we can see it's not even close.
BMW 750iL pads
The closest caliper to the 350Z Brembo 4-piston may be found in the E31 8-Series cars beginning in August, 1993. This, too, was made by Brembo but used a 7517-D639 pad which is 4.72" wide and 1.71" tall with 17mm of friction material thickness. The shape is similar, but that's an artifact of the Brembo 4-piston design. There's no way the 850i pad will fit in the 350Z and vice versa.
BMW 840i and 850i pads
Bottom line is the calipers are not the same. And let's pretend, for a moment, that they were. The 4-piston BMW calipers are very desirable parts, since they do backfit to several other BMW models. Since they were very rare to start with and they are desired by the BMW upgraders, you aren't likely to find any of them languishing in a junk yard. But that's just as well, since they won't fit!
#46
The guys with experience has been really civil and respectful, making this a helpful thread. On the other hand, they would be pushing their products and prefer if we bought their stuff. I don't blame them since, this is how racing and the industry is funded, by people buying things.
The way I see this is, I'm not a professional racer and want to autox without having the brakes cooking.
Thus the order of priorities are
1.Price
2.Performance
So I have two options
1)Wait for someone to try the brakes that fit my budget
2)Try with a set of brakes that would fit my budget. At least if the brakes fail, I'm still within budget.
so that's my point of view
The way I see this is, I'm not a professional racer and want to autox without having the brakes cooking.
Thus the order of priorities are
1.Price
2.Performance
So I have two options
1)Wait for someone to try the brakes that fit my budget
2)Try with a set of brakes that would fit my budget. At least if the brakes fail, I'm still within budget.
so that's my point of view
#48
Re: Wilwood
Originally posted by Russell (Dallas)
To some degree you do get what you pay for, but that is not the case with Wilwood. They offer a very competitive product for LESS than these other companies because the can due to more efficient manfucaturing and because they don't subscribe to the theory that distributors should make a 40%+ on each sale. Price does not indicate the value of a product. Just look at the stock market crash for verification! Many in this country lost a ton in the stock market due to this flawed thinking!
To some degree you do get what you pay for, but that is not the case with Wilwood. They offer a very competitive product for LESS than these other companies because the can due to more efficient manfucaturing and because they don't subscribe to the theory that distributors should make a 40%+ on each sale. Price does not indicate the value of a product. Just look at the stock market crash for verification! Many in this country lost a ton in the stock market due to this flawed thinking!
Wilwood calipers are very cheap to buy in bulk and that's why it is so profitable to slap together a kit made from their compenents. I know, since I helped Todd Cook (TCE) design a Wilwood-based kit for the Impala SS back in 1999. TCE, for those who don't know, does much of the fabrication work for Bondurant's driving school.
We're sort of comparing apples to oranges when we talk about Wilwood vs StopTech and Brembo because Wilwood builds calipers and the latter two companies build entire systems that work together. They have learned from building brake kits for many different applications and you can trust that their brackets are strong, their hats won't fall apart, and their brake lines are better than what you can slap together on your own using Earls components. StopTech has always tested all their brake lines (not production samples) to 4500 psi and Goodridge has started doing it too.
Some of the statements have been worded in such a way as to draw doubt into peoples mind about the safety of Wilwood products.
How about some specific examples of testing from the other companies and specific examples of what Wilwood does not do that they do....How about specifics about the deferences in material between all these products, how about specifics in relation to the rigidity of these products (I have personal witnessed a rigidity comparison of the Wilwood SL6 to the Alcon brakes - result, the Alcons flexed TWICE as much as the Wilwood as measured on a dial indicator by all parties involved!).
To translate the academic discussion of caliper flex into a real world benefit, a stiffer caliper will have less pedal travel and more linear braking at the track.
To answer mcclaskz question. The answer is "Yes", the $1,200 Precision Brake kit will probably be just fine for someone only doing 5 or 6 DE's per year. That kit is not much different than the 13"AP kit or 13" Stoptech kit - Solid rotors, 4 piston calipers, steel braided lines.....
I would encourage everyone to do some of their own research to validate statements - including mine.
For a good laugh, check out http://www.brakewarehouse.net/ and read the claim about cooling being improved 40 percent by drilling your rotors! Come on! Of the three mechanisms for getting rid of heat from your rotors, convection is only 25 percent of the total. Radiation is 50 percent and the other 25 percent conducts into your wheel bearings, wheels, calipers, and brake fluid. How is drilling some holes and removing mass from the rotors going to improve cooling by 40 percent?
I've seen people selling home brew big brake kits claiming a 30 percent reduction in stopping distance. Get real! It won't happen.
Be very skeptical of all claims and ask for test results. Find out what other folks are running and who is winning races. Don't get all your information from someone with a financial interest in your buying decision. (Sadly, that includes me.)
#49
I'm hoping to use these.
I was hoping to use this set of Brembos from a JDM Mitsubishi Evolution 7. I don't know if the rears will fit, they seem pretty big, but the fronts look like they might fit. I was hoping somebody might be able to help me get some Brembos cheap, without ending up with a poor performing Brembo system. I will provide all the measurements and numbers I found and performed on the calipers, hopefully someone can tell me if they would fit without too much hassle, and more importantly if they would fit and work right at the same time. Thanks in advance!
Fronts (Found 2 numbers on each caliper 20713701 & 20713601)
Approximate Measurements
Caliper Length 12"
Width 6 1/2"
Height 4 3/4"
From centers of each bolt Approx. 6 1/4"
Pads Length 5 3/16" Width 2 3/8"
Rears (2 Numbers on each caliper 1 207139 & 207140)
One caliper also had 2 O's in a circle, and the other had 2 9's in a circle as well.
Caliper Length 7"
Width 6"
Height 4"
From centers of each bolt 5 1/2"
Pads Length 3 1/16" Width 2"
Fronts (Found 2 numbers on each caliper 20713701 & 20713601)
Approximate Measurements
Caliper Length 12"
Width 6 1/2"
Height 4 3/4"
From centers of each bolt Approx. 6 1/4"
Pads Length 5 3/16" Width 2 3/8"
Rears (2 Numbers on each caliper 1 207139 & 207140)
One caliper also had 2 O's in a circle, and the other had 2 9's in a circle as well.
Caliper Length 7"
Width 6"
Height 4"
From centers of each bolt 5 1/2"
Pads Length 3 1/16" Width 2"
#51
I spoke briefly w/ BJ at Shuitemaker and he told me that they have been using the stock Track Brembos in all of their races thus far in the Grand-Am series. I believe they changed rotors and pads, but that seemed to be the extent of the modification. Who knew?
#54
Since Mr. Zeck chimed in, this trend has gotten strangly quiet.
Well, Zeck is the man, and he is the one on this site that I trust most when it comes to brakes. He has explained how aftermarket brakes are good for people who don't track there cars. Just too hard for me to spend two grand on it, although I know it is worth it in performance and looks of my brakes.
I would like a cheaper alternative, but I don't want my braking performance to get worse!!! Kinda like those exhausts that are out that make your performance go down, what a waste of money. Guess you still get what you pay for, although sometimes you can scarifice some things and still get the things you want at the price you want.
Well, Zeck is the man, and he is the one on this site that I trust most when it comes to brakes. He has explained how aftermarket brakes are good for people who don't track there cars. Just too hard for me to spend two grand on it, although I know it is worth it in performance and looks of my brakes.
I would like a cheaper alternative, but I don't want my braking performance to get worse!!! Kinda like those exhausts that are out that make your performance go down, what a waste of money. Guess you still get what you pay for, although sometimes you can scarifice some things and still get the things you want at the price you want.
#55
Originally posted by little_rod
Since Mr. Zeck chimed in, this trend has gotten strangly quiet.
Well, Zeck is the man, and he is the one on this site that I trust most when it comes to brakes. He has explained how aftermarket brakes are good for people who don't track there cars. Just too hard for me to spend two grand on it, although I know it is worth it in performance and looks of my brakes.
I would like a cheaper alternative, but I don't want my braking performance to get worse!!! Kinda like those exhausts that are out that make your performance go down, what a waste of money. Guess you still get what you pay for, although sometimes you can scarifice some things and still get the things you want at the price you want.
Since Mr. Zeck chimed in, this trend has gotten strangly quiet.
Well, Zeck is the man, and he is the one on this site that I trust most when it comes to brakes. He has explained how aftermarket brakes are good for people who don't track there cars. Just too hard for me to spend two grand on it, although I know it is worth it in performance and looks of my brakes.
I would like a cheaper alternative, but I don't want my braking performance to get worse!!! Kinda like those exhausts that are out that make your performance go down, what a waste of money. Guess you still get what you pay for, although sometimes you can scarifice some things and still get the things you want at the price you want.
#56
Originally posted by racin
Well, as I said, I'm trying to put together a large pile of information in a way that is not so large to read, and easy to understand. It seems that he and I believe the same things, however, so I obviously welcome his input! As I said up the page a bit, I just need some time. I have a business to run and other indulgences to persue as well...
Well, as I said, I'm trying to put together a large pile of information in a way that is not so large to read, and easy to understand. It seems that he and I believe the same things, however, so I obviously welcome his input! As I said up the page a bit, I just need some time. I have a business to run and other indulgences to persue as well...
Any info you can give would be much appreicated.
#57
Zeck
Wilwood calipers are not sold at a lower margin than other calipers. They are less expensive because they are made of less expensive material, they use less material, and they leave out some components that others, such as Brembo and StopTech include (i.e., dust boots). Some of the compromises that go into Wilwood calipers make them work well in their niche of racing, such as sprint cars where brakes need to be light rather than strong, and make them inappropriate for a car that is used primarily on the street.
We're sort of comparing apples to oranges when we talk about Wilwood vs StopTech and Brembo because Wilwood builds calipers and the latter two companies build entire systems that work together. They have learned from building brake kits for many different applications and you can trust that their brackets are strong, their hats won't fall apart, and their brake lines are better than what you can slap together on your own using Earls components. StopTech has always tested all their brake lines (not production samples) to 4500 psi and Goodridge has started doing it too.
I'm not concerned about the safety of Wilwood's products. I'm concerned about the safety of brake kits that are slapped together USING the Wilwood products. What sort of fabrication experience does the kit builder have? How were the brackets designed? Were the lines tested? Was the kit designed with the goal of creating a balanced system by proper selection of rotor diameter, caliper piston size, and pad friction level? Has it been tested at the track under controlled conditions and then tweaked to improve stopping distances based on the track results? (Because real world testing almost always ends up causing the engineeers to tweak the design a bit.)
You picked a very bad metric to compare Wilwood against, since they are notorious for the amount of flex under pressure. I would be very interested in understanding the test set-up used in your specific example because I have seen testing results that show the Alcon to be twice as stiff as the Wilwood. And the Alcon 6-piston is NOT a very stiff caliper. In general, a 6-piston caliper will flex much more than a 4-piston caliper from the same company.
The test I am referring was at the track in not the most 'scientific' of settings, but effective none the less. Multiple people in attendance (talking smack as people do). The test was pretty simple, static measuring point, dial indicator, stand on the brake pedal as hard as possible - measured on both cars by a bystander. The Alcon flexed .5 thousandths more than the SL6 Wilwood. These were kits on Vipers, btw. Obviously mounting brackets play a big role in caliper flex.....I'd be curious to see your data comparing StopTech calipers to all others, for flex. Your general statement about 6 pistons calipers flexing more than 4 piston caliper is WAY too general. There are many 4 piston calipers that are larger than and weaker than 6 piston calipers...
It's getting late and I've got a race this weekend, so I'll pick this up later!
#59
Well, guess we have a difference of opinion here, lol. Russell, I noticed that the kits that you have still cost $2000, same as the stoptechs and others. The whole reason why this argument started from a customer's opinion (like me) was to find lower priced brake kits. The kit that you offer appears to be very close in cost to kits offered elsewhere.
Any opinions on the wildwood kit that is like $1000??? Is it a piece of junk??? Honestly, I didn't think this trend was to see the best kit out there, but a cheap good alternative to the $2000 kits.
Any opinions on the wildwood kit that is like $1000??? Is it a piece of junk??? Honestly, I didn't think this trend was to see the best kit out there, but a cheap good alternative to the $2000 kits.
#60
Re: Re: Wilwood
Originally posted by DZeckhausen
Don't get all your information from someone with a financial interest in your buying decision. (Sadly, that includes me.)
Don't get all your information from someone with a financial interest in your buying decision. (Sadly, that includes me.)
I applaud you for putting this out there when you are a vendor yourself.