Ok, the one person that has the Tein basics has mentioned to me that he has some bounce on the freeway. That kinda kills the idea of buying them in my book. If I'm going to spend a dim to replace the 350Z springs and struts I'm running on my sedan, the bounce CANNOT be part of the new system. I'd love to buy the Jic's as I believe their the best coilovers you can get in the less than $2k range, but even if I could find a way to get them on sale for $1629, that's still more than I can comfortably spend.

So here's my idea. The Tein basics come with 9kg or 504LBS spring rates front and rear. I'd like to run the front's with 8Kg or 448LBS spring rates, would cost me a extra $100 to make the change. I'm hoping that a little less front spring rate will kill the bounce. Plus I'd rather keep the stock spring rate front to rear spring rate balance. Doing the math, if I multiply the stock front spring rate by 129%, I get 448LBS. Keeping the Tein basic rear rate the same 504LBS means the rear rate is 21% percent stiffer than stock. I can live with the 8% difference as a trial.

So, for $900, I think I can get a workable performance suspension. If the slightly lowered front rates don't do what I hope, I'll send the front dampener's back to tein and have them revalved, at $75 to $100 each. Even If I have to revalve, that would bring my total cost to $1100, still cheaper than other options. HKS LS coilovers are not suited for me, being a comfort driven system.

I do prefer the Jics on account of several things, how they lower and their dampener design I feel is plainly better. I dunno maybe I'm chasing a price point to hard

http://www.tein.com/badamp.html

http://www.jic-magic.com/productsjic_susp_flta2.htm

 

why not try hooking up with someone who ahs them before you start making spring rate changes.....

all too often I see people criticizing the ride quality of "insert your brand here" coilover, without mentioning what tires they have, what wheels, what tire pressure, etc etc etc - all of which are integral in how "well" (very subjective term) the car behaves.

You also cannot really compare the spring rate front to rear between the Tein and the stock, as the equation also takes into account new shocks, which are part of the Tein package (and their associated valving)

 

Thank you for the imput.

The problem is he's the only person that has them, one guy, that's it. And he lives over 300 miles away from me. Also, I've read pretty much every review on the various coilovers that have been installed on here in 350Z's and reviews done on other sites for the G35. Not a single one of them mentions bounce as part of thier review, yet the one known owner of the Tein basic system went out of his way to mention it, and without my prompting him either. I agree about the subjective thing, however the discription I got makes it kinda clear.

Spring rates set the balance of the car, dampener valving dictates how those spring rates are allowed to move. I like the car's balance as provided by the factory spring rates. I wish to maintain said balance, theirfore I'll maintain the front to rear spring rate balance as matter of tuning. Even if the bounce issue, really doesn't exist. Running the lower front spring rate meets my spring rate balance goals. Additionally Tein outright says they designed the basics valving as to allow variations plus or minus 1Kg. Which was told to me this morning when talked to one of Tein's techs extensively. As stated, if I don't agree with their valving logic, I'll pay to have them changed to specs that are more to my hearts desire. Likely, more low-speed compression and firmer high-speed rebound dampening.

One thing I just thought of is corner weighting. I wonder if Tein did the rate's even as to allow for corner weighting AND to allow the car's ride height to look right.

I still reserve the right to say the heck with it and spend almost double and get the jics, but it's not a decision that will come easily. I'd hate to pass up the chance to have what might meet my needs at a smarter cost.

 

With the Tien's do you have to reset them everytime you jack up the car??

I had some ground controls before and hated them because when I jacked up the car, I had to align the rear springs everytime. The springs themselves would drop way down riding on the lower ring, then you had to lower the car most of the way, line them back up with the upper boot, and then hope they lined up right. Half the time the didn't. Major pain in the *** for tire rotation, etc.

I want some inexpensive coilovers, but if they're a pain like the ground controls were on my Eclipse, I'll just stick to regular springs...

 

If you're looking for some inexpensive coilovers, why not get some Tanabes? It looks like they'll be priced anywhere from $950-$1600 depending on application.

 

Gcoupe35, I have also talked to Tein about these. Really, from what I have been able to gather from other reviews, most of the bounce could be in the rear, not the front. If that is the case, then changing the front would have no effect on bounce. Revalving of the rear shocks might do the trick, firming up the rebound dampening.

But we really can't say for sure that the basics come with the bounce. The guy you are speaking of, also has his car lower quite a bit which might effect his views. Hate to have to get them revalved, hard to really go on one guys view though, bounce is such a vage term.

 

Ok - a few things. yes you are correct that the spring rates affect the balance - but as soon as you change the damper valving (as you would in these coilovers), the balance shifts again. As you change tires and wheels, which are as much a part of the suspension as anything else, you alter the balance yet again.

As for corner weighting, you cannot cornerweight the Basic, as they are only height adjustable via the lower spring perch. To do cornerweighting, you need dual height adjustability, such as provided on Cusco, JIC, Tein Flex, etc.

How low does this person have the car set? Remember too, that in addition to the other factors I mentioned above, the more you lower the car, the higher your effective spring rate becomes (and also the shorter your stroke becomes, again, since these are only 1 way height adjustable), and the more bounce you'll get. Just look at all the riceboy Corollas and Hondas with cut springs....perfect example of what I am talking about.

 

Dampener valving influences how quickly weight is transferred.
They have no affect on the amount of weight transferred. Dampeners, influence handling during transitions – braking, accelerating and cornering. Once the dampener has done is job and the suspenion is compressed, your spirng rate choice dictates things, not the dampeners. My setup uses the same size tires front to rear.

Any coilover can be corner weighted, as you know the principle of corner weighting is shifting weight around. Raising or lowering, no matter how it is done alter's the corner weight. If you lower a given corner, you are corner weighting, using the proper scales that is. The advantage to the Jic and the Flex system would be maintaining more of the stock suspension travel. I'll also counter that a previous installment of Grassroots motor sports magizine discuse's how they corner weighted their 2002 civic Si which is running sleave type ground control coilovers, a system that is only adjustable via the lower spring perch, right down to giving specific number's in weights. Now I could see a possible arguement that the Jic and flex system might allow for more effective corner weighting, but to say the basics can't be corner weighted or system's like it, is not the case.

http://www.grmotorsports.com/cornerweight.html

Ya know concerning the ride height of the car in question, looking at the pics of the car. It doesn't look that low. Yet, the owner said he bought the setup to drop the car down. Teins specs show the max drop in the front on the coupe is 2.1" and 1.1" in the rear. Still the balance of your last paragraph rings rather true. But then, I have to say, how much will I be lowering it to get the ride height I want, with a eye towards corner weighting the car. Will I to be increasing the effective spring rates to the point of inducing bounce myself?

Jeez, all this is just pushing me more and more to the Jics or the Flex. Problem I have with the Flex is you cannot adjust the dampeners off the car without the EDFC system hooked up. That raise's the Flex's "real" cost to beyond the Jics. $1598 plus $360 for the EDFC. I can get the Jics for $1729. But basic's for $900,...........man I hate this.

 

I would disagree completely with your statement above. The valving of the shock dictates how fast or slow it compresses and rebounds - that directly correlates to how the shock. The idea is not to fully compress the dampener until the spring itself is fully compressed - ideally. This is where the Flex and JIC have an advantage, in that you can alter ride height (via the lower mounting bracket) without affecting preload of the spring. Thus, you are able to reduce rideheight without affecting the stroke characteristic of the shock - this is the primary advantage a dual height adjsutable system has over a single height adjustable system. What you are suggesting is the spring rates operate independant of the shock valving, and its simply not the case in a proper setup - the two are supposed to augment each other and work as a system. Only when you have a mismatched or improperly setup system do you end up with springs compressing before the shock does, or springs fully compressed without the shock being fully compressed. The two parts don't operate in a vacuum.

As for cornerweighting, its the same thing I am talking about above. CAN it physically be done - sure - but what is the point? Sure you might get the car balanced better overall, but it will be at the expense of rideheight from side to side and front to back. On a system that is only height adjustable via the lower perch, like the Tein Basic, you are then dealing with different rideheights at each corner, and thus, different amount of suspension travel at each corner. If your setup is extreme enough, or you race enough that cornerweighting is a viable option or even necessity for you, then a setup like the Basic or the Flex should not even enter your realm of thinking, as they are both street setups. You cannot even compare the JIC and the Flex - two totally different units for 2 totally different customers. Why anyone would take the time to corner weight a car that is not using a dual height adjustable setup is beyond me. The whole point to cornerweighting is to even out the load each shock is supporting to better balance the car. In doing so, you inherently are going to end up with ride height differences from side to side. With a single height adjsutable setup, like a sleeved "coilover" or a Tein Flex, etc, that's it, game over - you are now cornerweighted but at the expense of uneven ride height, uneven travel. On a dual height adjustable system however, you can alter the load each corner supports, and still end up with even rideheight all around and even travel all around, which again, is why such systems exist in the first place.

Again, if you are at the point of being a good enough driver, or using the car enough for track days that cornerweighting is something you are seriously considering, you should be looking into a more competition oriented setup, like an FLTA2 (which we can give you an excellent deal on if interested, as we are a longstanding JIC dealer).

Also, are you looking at G35 specific units or 350Z units - as you know the valving and rates will be different for each.

Adam

 

Your not understanding what I'm saying on the first part, or maybe I'm in error for making a assupmtion that you'd know I know better on matching spring rates with dampener valving rates. So let me rephrase things. First of all, since no one at this time offer's aftermarket sturts, ($2K unit's don't count), were are talking exclusively about coilovers. Know the spring rates your car has as a baseline so you can know how you want you car's behavior to change in terms of rate chances. Pick the spring rates, they are the most important aspect to tuning the car. Next, make sure you are running a dampener system that can deal with your spring rate choice. With a decent number of choice's for the G's and Z's, your bound to find a coilovers company that offer the spring rates you want. Then you move to pricing issues and design issue's.

On the second point, I see you admit to the fact design's, other than the Jic and the Flex can be corner weighted. In the same breath, I myself conceed to your agrument as valid concerning how their's a number of issues with cornering weighting with those other design's.

Back to the point of this thread. Getting coilovers, you mentioned being able to get me a excellent deal on the FLA-2's. Please PM me what you have to offer $ wise on them. I'm on the fence on either Z or G. I don't think you have a cost variation between the two.

 

OK, if lowering the car might increase bounce, do the basics come at a certain height when you get them?? I mean, how do you know what height they are til you put them on the car. I haven't bought coilovers before, so maybe you guys can shed some light on them for me. I am sure they have some kind of system that lets you know they are at the same height, and whether the ride height is lower than stock.

 

wow, I think you guys are talking about me. I have the G35 with the basics and the 19" volks.

Honestly, don't jump to any conclusions... My car does not bounce at all. It is just a very stiff ride. I just don't really have the words to describe it, I know for a fact SOMEONE on this board lives in the OC area, and they can go for a ride with me and give you guys better feedback than I can. I for one and very happy with this coilover setup. Unfortuantly I haven't done much in a 350z to see what you mean by bounce. Yes, I have driven my bosses 350z, but on roads between stoplights I coudln't really tell.

Thanks..

 

Yes, we are talking about you, nice to see you chime in.

Is your car at stock height?? Guess that has been the most debated issue. If you say you don't have any bounce, then I will go by that since you are the only one with experience with the basics. Thanks for your input.

 

I did not mention you by name since I did not ask for permision to discuse the pm conversation's we had. But since your changing your tune. I'll remind you what you said to me. This is not a case of you being railed for having a poor product. This is a case of needing to figure out your impression's. Saying you had bounce and now you don't, still cast's suspicion on the basics. Though I invite you to refine your impressions. But I waited awhile before asking you how you felt, just for that reason, so you would have had a chance to run them for awhile to formulate a opinion. A second opinion from another OC member would be great.

Again, here's what you said to me when i pm'd you asking you if you'd been able to dirve on your teins much.


Re: Curious if you've been able to drive on your teins much

From: narkotic
Received: 09/21/03 04:50 PM
"Yes, I love them. I've lowered them to the point where theres no wheel gap, and they never bottom out, I can still go over speedbumps at the same speed. The ride is much stiffer than the stock g35, it rides more like a 350 now. I prefer it this way... On some freeways it can get a little bouncy, but it doesn't bother me." END QUOTE

The freeway is one of the universal place's to get most any stock Z to experience bounce. With you specifically mentioning it occuring in the same place, it adds credibility to your comments. I can say the bounce doesn't bother me either, but on long drive's, or bad road's in town, it get's old. I don't mind stiff, but bounce is tiresome.

 

You know what my problem is, there is no clear definition of "bounce" to me. I mean isn't that what suspension does, bounce? No, this car does not ride like it would stock, no it does not ride like a 350z, but then again like I said i've never been on a long drive or on a freeway and experienced this "bounce" effect. So i'm never going to be able to answer your questions unless someone decides to take me in their stock Z for a drive.

 

Well, what it is, is when you are on the interstate, and you hit one of the expansion joints, the car hits that bump. Then, after the initial jolt, the car's motion goes up and down for a second or two after the bump like the suspension needs more rebound control. To me, it is easy to see when you have a passenger. I look over and see them bouncing around, lol, especially when it is a woman (not too bad of thing ).

Anyway, sometimes you feel like a bobble head doll. What should happen is that you hit the bump, the car should stay level without the up and down motion.

 

hmm... if your saying that a car shouldn't move when hitting a bump that would mean you have a very "comfortable" suspension rather than a stiff track type suspension. If you want your car to not move like a cadillac, then go buy the tein CS or the hks hypermax LS coilovers.

 

What he's saying is, no matter the stiffness, the suspension should not osilate after dealing with a bump. We fully exspect the initial impact to be stiff, were not talking about comfort. We're talking about the comfort of being free from bounce of any sort. It all depends on how much R&D work they are willing to invest, which on a price leader product, may not have been what it should have been, to protect a price point. Which a properly valved high performance system, coilover or not, can provide. If the basics are not absorbing larger bumps or freeway expansion joints in a way that they are bouncing afterwards, either the car is so low and lacks the suspension travel range combined with the avaliable dampening or they simply don't have enough rebound dampening period. Which can be fixed by a revalve from tein, and the basics would still be cheaper than other coilover systems. I know where I can get Tein basic's for $783, at $400 to revalve all four dampeners and your still at $1183. Add my idea of softer front springs ($65 each not the $50 each I mentioned earlier). and your at $1323. Better than the luxury, not for performance HKS LS coilovers which sell for $1377. But, by then your only $275 away from getting the cheapest source for Tein Flex coilovers. Which really isn't fair since you have to add the price of the EDFC controller if you want to adjust the FLEX coilovers without removeing them from the car. So your really still $600 away from the price of FLEX's.

So, let's remove the idea of softness as in comfort, out of the mix and concentrate on how a performance suspension system should and should NOT behave. The world is filled with performance automobiles that have stiff suspensions, bounce isn't something they do, 350Z's are the exception to that as a ton of owners have rightfully voiced a large number of complaints on, adding creadience to my saying, it should not happen.

 

Yeah, I meant what he said.

 

Thanks for the explanation. I think I can safely say that they do not bounce. I mean, i've seen people on the freeway with chopped springs that bounce after every bump up and down up and down for a little while, and mine definatly do not do that. Hell, if they did I'd feel a little cheated out of the $ I spent on them. I guess the next step would be for one of you to go on a ride with me to make sure....