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With $5000 in rebates (This was back in March, there may even be more now), 23k would just be MSRP - rebates. If you're paying MSRP for an '08 now you've got too much money. Even 21k is about invoice - rebates and dealers are willing to sell for this price all day everyday. Some got base models for under 20k months ago.
I still don't believe people getting Base Z's for under 20k. I guess in the bay area the economy is not as bad since I thought my 8k off sticker was a steal lol.