Which 3M bra...Invisiguard, StoneGard or Xpel?
01-14-2003, 06:27 PM
#21
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Xpel had thier kit ready at the end of August, and we installed ZBart and ZLee from this board in Early September, before Invica-shield had their kit ready(do a search on this forum and you will see a thread on it) but that is niether here nor there. You are correct, any kit is only as good as its installer, and even though we are Xpel dealers, we will only refer work to installers we know will do a quality install and stand by thier work, regardless of whose kit they install. Mike at Dynashield is not only an excellent installer, but an all around good guy and one of the most knowledgable people on subject of paint protection film outside of the 3M factory. He is passionate about what he does, and isn't going anywhere. And as far as people copying Invica-Shield, I am glad Xpel didnt copy your 350Z design, whats with the 7 PIECE bumper with relief cuts under the reflectors???
01-14-2003, 06:50 PM
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Re: DynaShield?
Originally posted by Invinca-ShieldMgr.
Dynashield? Wow! That's what happens when everyone and their brother sees a good product. Invinca-Shield, Xpel and Stongard were the three originals. We're flattered by all the wanna-be "shield" companies out there trying to be just like us. By the way, what kind of warranty did you get on your kit? How does it compare with Invinca-Shield's 5 year warranty and/or can you get warranty service coast to coast? Ask yourself the question, if the Dynashield guy decides to do something else for a living next month, do you still have a warranty?
Dynashield? Wow! That's what happens when everyone and their brother sees a good product. Invinca-Shield, Xpel and Stongard were the three originals. We're flattered by all the wanna-be "shield" companies out there trying to be just like us. By the way, what kind of warranty did you get on your kit? How does it compare with Invinca-Shield's 5 year warranty and/or can you get warranty service coast to coast? Ask yourself the question, if the Dynashield guy decides to do something else for a living next month, do you still have a warranty?
You state your material is non-yellowing on your web site. 3M states the material is yellow resistant and does not warranty against yellowing. 3M warrants their product (full 3M warranty on my website NEXT MONDAY) for only two years. Why should a customer trust your warranty for 5 years. We both know your warranty is a marketing ploy so take it somewhere else. I encourage everyone to call ALL of your distributors on you list. You will find that most of them DO NOT EXIST or have never heard of you product.
My shop is a climate controlled sealed vent-less building with a three micron filtration system and 5,000 watts of lighting. Don't compare a class setup to what you driveway installers do.
your s500 kit
Last edited by mikeinatlanta; 01-14-2003 at 07:42 PM.
01-14-2003, 07:13 PM
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Re: DynaShield?
Originally posted by Invinca-ShieldMgr.
Lastly, let's discuss the wrap around hood design that you claim is so good. The film adheres best on clean surfaces. I don't know what you have under your hood but I have dirt, oil and grease, not to mention high temperatures under mine. At Invinca-Shield we intentionally DO NOT WRAP AROUND AND UNDER HOODS because that area is most susceptible to poor adherence. And once the film releases from the under side of the hood, it is only a matter of time before it starts fraying between the hood and the body when you raise and lower the hood. I think after a few months of use you may want to recant your testimony, Cato.
Lastly, let's discuss the wrap around hood design that you claim is so good. The film adheres best on clean surfaces. I don't know what you have under your hood but I have dirt, oil and grease, not to mention high temperatures under mine. At Invinca-Shield we intentionally DO NOT WRAP AROUND AND UNDER HOODS because that area is most susceptible to poor adherence. And once the film releases from the under side of the hood, it is only a matter of time before it starts fraying between the hood and the body when you raise and lower the hood. I think after a few months of use you may want to recant your testimony, Cato.
We, at DynaShield spend two to eight hours just cleaning and prepping the surface for installation. We do this because our customers demand the best. Depending on the wax, we may etch it with a mild alkali cleaner. We then wash the car again with a non reactive car wash. Then we take the car into the shop and wash it again with a non-reactive and distilled water. All edges are cleaned first with a solvent and then the surfactant with distilled water.
"fraying between the hood and body"? Show me a car with only 16 mils of hood clearance and I'll show you a car that needs the body shop.
your g35 kit
Last edited by mikeinatlanta; 01-14-2003 at 07:20 PM.
01-14-2003, 07:34 PM
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Re: DynaShield?
Originally posted by Invinca-ShieldMgr.
There are many excellent installers of paint protection film across the U.S. and your Dynashield may be one of them. We don't know as we have never heard of them and we scout out our competition keenly. Let's just hope that, in this particular situation, like most others in life, it doesn't turn out to be a case of "you get what you pay for". All the above is obviously my humble opinion but think about it, much makes sense.
There are many excellent installers of paint protection film across the U.S. and your Dynashield may be one of them. We don't know as we have never heard of them and we scout out our competition keenly. Let's just hope that, in this particular situation, like most others in life, it doesn't turn out to be a case of "you get what you pay for". All the above is obviously my humble opinion but think about it, much makes sense.
To all the my350z regulars. I apologize (a little) for the nasty remarks to this idiot.
01-14-2003, 07:55 PM
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01-15-2003, 05:23 AM
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01-15-2003, 09:05 AM
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Continuing the battle...
Well, my intent was to encourage some of the Forum members to open up their eyes and look at other alternatives but little did I know it would lead into such a pissing contest! You do realize that the winners of this battle are the members of the Forum who are truly seeking to hear the honest pros and cons of each of our products.
Let me explain a few issues more clearly from our perspective without all the theatrics, tag-teaming or emotionalism.
We do scout our competition keenly. Two months ago, Auto Supershield (yes another "shield" company") and Invinca-Shield were the only two paint protection film advertisers on Roadfly.org
You will have to admit that Dynashield is a relative newcomer to Roadfly.org and we must have missed your intro as we've been busy designing new kits lately. We do not buy kits from Stongard nor Xpel as you are aware that we design all our own. But I could name several of both Xpel and Stongard guys who buy kits from us! wink.
Our annual sales are on a par with Stongard and Xpel. We do not feel threatened by your presence in the market, particularly if you really spend 2-8 hours just cleaning and prepping the surface for installation. We too prep the surface adequately, but by not using the "wrap around" technique we save many hours and therefore charge our customers much less for their installations. We have seen that there is a definite limit to what potential customers are willing to pay for and what they're not. But more importantly, we are manufacturers of kits and prefer to sell to distributors and retail customers alike.
You may be very fortunate to have some of the wealthiest automobile owners in Atlanta as your clientele for whom money is no object but we here at Invinca-Shield try to design and install our kits for the average driving enthusiast. Value is what we offer. Yes, in general our kit designs have more pieces than some other designs. This is for several reasons; 1) We try to balance "one piece design with practicality". Not everyone who installs paint protection films has unlimited hours plus the experience level needed to install a one piece bumper kit. We have had two recent distributors sign up (both ex-Stongard guys and one in your area by the way) who themselves said enough with the excessive demands of "one piece kits". 2) We sell many kits to the retail market. The average do-it-yourselfer with patience and a little bit of handiness can install some of the simpler kits and do a good job of it. 3) We offer lots of optional kit pieces the other guys do not. 4) We have always offered "a la carte" purchasing of pieces. Our customers decide what areas they wish to cover. Replacement parts are then cheaper too! And by the way, for our most experienced installers we do offer to do custom work like putting pieces together to make a one piece bumper. We had an excellent installer, Rik at a place called Detailwerks who krinkov may know, who is responsible for some of the kits you see on our website labelled "Rik specials". I believe he used to be a Stongard guy too.
The only people who make a big deal out of the number of seams are our competitors. Installed correctly, the seams butt together and do not cause any problems. Would it be better to have zero seams in a kit. Heck yea but it all goes back to the quality of installation. Less seams just means there is less possibility that an edge could lift up or trap some dirt not that it is going to.
In the case of the 350Z our extra relief slits and 7 piece design allows even moderately capable installers to do a good job. What good is paint protection to the general public if only 6 people in the entire US can install it well and only a few can afford it? And yes on the 2003 Infiniti G35 Coupe we did intentionally split the front bumper for ease of handling and installation. By the way, all those extra pieces on the 350Z and G35? They are cab top, door pillars, protection for behind and in front of both front/rear wheels and door handle cups. Why? Because our customers told us they wanted those options.
The S500 design goes back to 1999 (as noted on the face sheet)and represents an excessive amount of pieces even by my standards. None of those design guys work for us anymore. They are out on their own at XXX-shield (I'm not kidding, I'll give you the name privately) still making kits the same way. Look at our newer kits and you'll see a much better balance between number of pieces and one piece construction.
When film comes loose from underneath the hood it most certainly can chaffe when opening and closing the hood. The clearance you mention is only appropriate when everything is adhering correctly.
Our warranty is for 5 years and this is based on our trip to 3M's corporate headquarters in St.Paul, Min. Their warranty is for 2 years based on extensive testing. At two years their film had a zero failure rate but at 3-7 years the film failed such a small percentage of the time that we felt comfortable extending our warranty to five years. 3M is being very conservative with their warranty as is a customary business practice with them. They want zero failures. Statistics.....it's one hell of a good business tool and allows us to vary our warranty dependent upon our tolerance level for claims. Those distributors using the new Venture Tape film receive a 7 year warranty from the factory. Is it really 3.5 times hardier than 3M? Heck even Forum poster, Matt XX warrants his install for four years.
We did however eliminate the hokey $1,000 repainting guarranty that some of the other companies still have. We used to have the same thing that basically said, "if your car got hit in such a way as to remove the paint without cutting or penetrating the film and without leaving any kind of dent or crater, then we would pay up to $1,000 of your deductible when you filed an insurance claim." Since we ourselves could not come up with a plausible way in which this could occur, and we felt this warranty was deceiving the public, the new managment team hired on June 1, 2000 immediately did away with it. Check out the sites that still offer that $1,000 warranty and try to picture for yourself what miracle must occur for you to get paid on a claim.
Why is it throughout our entire discussion you have not mentioned price once? What does it cost for your average customer to have what we would call a deluxe kit installed at your location. And once again, if anyone wants a deluxe kit installed on their 350Z with a 5 year warranty, your special price is $500 at Invinca-Shield's headquarters.
In conclusion, Mike, we weren't trying to be smart-asses. We were just trying to present an opposing viewpoint. After reading your posts I am now quite sure that you and Dynashield can provide the best installation that money can buy. It's just that some of the other Forum readers may still want paint protection and not be located near you nor able to afford your services immediately after buying such a nice car.
Let me explain a few issues more clearly from our perspective without all the theatrics, tag-teaming or emotionalism.
We do scout our competition keenly. Two months ago, Auto Supershield (yes another "shield" company") and Invinca-Shield were the only two paint protection film advertisers on Roadfly.org
You will have to admit that Dynashield is a relative newcomer to Roadfly.org and we must have missed your intro as we've been busy designing new kits lately. We do not buy kits from Stongard nor Xpel as you are aware that we design all our own. But I could name several of both Xpel and Stongard guys who buy kits from us! wink.
Our annual sales are on a par with Stongard and Xpel. We do not feel threatened by your presence in the market, particularly if you really spend 2-8 hours just cleaning and prepping the surface for installation. We too prep the surface adequately, but by not using the "wrap around" technique we save many hours and therefore charge our customers much less for their installations. We have seen that there is a definite limit to what potential customers are willing to pay for and what they're not. But more importantly, we are manufacturers of kits and prefer to sell to distributors and retail customers alike.
You may be very fortunate to have some of the wealthiest automobile owners in Atlanta as your clientele for whom money is no object but we here at Invinca-Shield try to design and install our kits for the average driving enthusiast. Value is what we offer. Yes, in general our kit designs have more pieces than some other designs. This is for several reasons; 1) We try to balance "one piece design with practicality". Not everyone who installs paint protection films has unlimited hours plus the experience level needed to install a one piece bumper kit. We have had two recent distributors sign up (both ex-Stongard guys and one in your area by the way) who themselves said enough with the excessive demands of "one piece kits". 2) We sell many kits to the retail market. The average do-it-yourselfer with patience and a little bit of handiness can install some of the simpler kits and do a good job of it. 3) We offer lots of optional kit pieces the other guys do not. 4) We have always offered "a la carte" purchasing of pieces. Our customers decide what areas they wish to cover. Replacement parts are then cheaper too! And by the way, for our most experienced installers we do offer to do custom work like putting pieces together to make a one piece bumper. We had an excellent installer, Rik at a place called Detailwerks who krinkov may know, who is responsible for some of the kits you see on our website labelled "Rik specials". I believe he used to be a Stongard guy too.
The only people who make a big deal out of the number of seams are our competitors. Installed correctly, the seams butt together and do not cause any problems. Would it be better to have zero seams in a kit. Heck yea but it all goes back to the quality of installation. Less seams just means there is less possibility that an edge could lift up or trap some dirt not that it is going to.
In the case of the 350Z our extra relief slits and 7 piece design allows even moderately capable installers to do a good job. What good is paint protection to the general public if only 6 people in the entire US can install it well and only a few can afford it? And yes on the 2003 Infiniti G35 Coupe we did intentionally split the front bumper for ease of handling and installation. By the way, all those extra pieces on the 350Z and G35? They are cab top, door pillars, protection for behind and in front of both front/rear wheels and door handle cups. Why? Because our customers told us they wanted those options.
The S500 design goes back to 1999 (as noted on the face sheet)and represents an excessive amount of pieces even by my standards. None of those design guys work for us anymore. They are out on their own at XXX-shield (I'm not kidding, I'll give you the name privately) still making kits the same way. Look at our newer kits and you'll see a much better balance between number of pieces and one piece construction.
When film comes loose from underneath the hood it most certainly can chaffe when opening and closing the hood. The clearance you mention is only appropriate when everything is adhering correctly.
Our warranty is for 5 years and this is based on our trip to 3M's corporate headquarters in St.Paul, Min. Their warranty is for 2 years based on extensive testing. At two years their film had a zero failure rate but at 3-7 years the film failed such a small percentage of the time that we felt comfortable extending our warranty to five years. 3M is being very conservative with their warranty as is a customary business practice with them. They want zero failures. Statistics.....it's one hell of a good business tool and allows us to vary our warranty dependent upon our tolerance level for claims. Those distributors using the new Venture Tape film receive a 7 year warranty from the factory. Is it really 3.5 times hardier than 3M? Heck even Forum poster, Matt XX warrants his install for four years.
We did however eliminate the hokey $1,000 repainting guarranty that some of the other companies still have. We used to have the same thing that basically said, "if your car got hit in such a way as to remove the paint without cutting or penetrating the film and without leaving any kind of dent or crater, then we would pay up to $1,000 of your deductible when you filed an insurance claim." Since we ourselves could not come up with a plausible way in which this could occur, and we felt this warranty was deceiving the public, the new managment team hired on June 1, 2000 immediately did away with it. Check out the sites that still offer that $1,000 warranty and try to picture for yourself what miracle must occur for you to get paid on a claim.
Why is it throughout our entire discussion you have not mentioned price once? What does it cost for your average customer to have what we would call a deluxe kit installed at your location. And once again, if anyone wants a deluxe kit installed on their 350Z with a 5 year warranty, your special price is $500 at Invinca-Shield's headquarters.
In conclusion, Mike, we weren't trying to be smart-asses. We were just trying to present an opposing viewpoint. After reading your posts I am now quite sure that you and Dynashield can provide the best installation that money can buy. It's just that some of the other Forum readers may still want paint protection and not be located near you nor able to afford your services immediately after buying such a nice car.
01-15-2003, 01:12 PM
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Re: Continuing the battle...
Originally posted by Invinca-ShieldMgr.
Well, my intent was to encourage some of the Forum members to open up their eyes and look at other alternatives but little did I know it would lead into such a pissing contest! You do realize that the winners of this battle are the members of the Forum who are truly seeking to hear the honest pros and cons of each of our products.
Well, my intent was to encourage some of the Forum members to open up their eyes and look at other alternatives but little did I know it would lead into such a pissing contest! You do realize that the winners of this battle are the members of the Forum who are truly seeking to hear the honest pros and cons of each of our products.
01-15-2003, 01:22 PM
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Re: Continuing the battle...
Originally posted by Invinca-ShieldMgr.
We do scout our competition keenly. Two months ago, Auto Supershield (yes another "shield" company") and Invinca-Shield were the only two paint protection film advertisers on Roadfly.org
You will have to admit that Dynashield is a relative newcomer to Roadfly.org and we must have missed your intro as we've been busy designing new kits lately. We do not buy kits from Stongard nor Xpel as you are aware that we design all our own. But I could name several of both Xpel and Stongard guys who buy kits from us! wink.
We do scout our competition keenly. Two months ago, Auto Supershield (yes another "shield" company") and Invinca-Shield were the only two paint protection film advertisers on Roadfly.org
You will have to admit that Dynashield is a relative newcomer to Roadfly.org and we must have missed your intro as we've been busy designing new kits lately. We do not buy kits from Stongard nor Xpel as you are aware that we design all our own. But I could name several of both Xpel and Stongard guys who buy kits from us! wink.
Your next remark about not buying from others proves my point. You are just another company that thinks you have the only product worth buying. You have it right, everyone else has it wrong. Is this how you treat your customers when they have a problem?
01-15-2003, 01:31 PM
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Re: Continuing the battle...
Originally posted by Invinca-ShieldMgr.
Our annual sales are on a par with Stongard and Xpel. We do not feel threatened by your presence in the market, particularly if you really spend 2-8 hours just cleaning and prepping the surface for installation. We too prep the surface adequately, but by not using the "wrap around" technique we save many hours and therefore charge our customers much less for their installations. We have seen that there is a definite limit to what potential customers are willing to pay for and what they're not. But more importantly, we are manufacturers of kits and prefer to sell to distributors and retail customers alike.
Our annual sales are on a par with Stongard and Xpel. We do not feel threatened by your presence in the market, particularly if you really spend 2-8 hours just cleaning and prepping the surface for installation. We too prep the surface adequately, but by not using the "wrap around" technique we save many hours and therefore charge our customers much less for their installations. We have seen that there is a definite limit to what potential customers are willing to pay for and what they're not. But more importantly, we are manufacturers of kits and prefer to sell to distributors and retail customers alike.
edit: brenda made me edit above
Last edited by mikeinatlanta; 01-15-2003 at 01:37 PM.
01-15-2003, 01:49 PM
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Re: Continuing the battle...
Originally posted by Invinca-ShieldMgr.
You may be very fortunate to have some of the wealthiest automobile owners in Atlanta as your clientele for whom money is no object but we here at Invinca-Shield try to design and install our kits for the average driving enthusiast. Value is what we offer. Yes, in general our kit designs have more pieces than some other designs. This is for several reasons; 1) We try to balance "one piece design with practicality". Not everyone who installs paint protection films has unlimited hours plus the experience level needed to install a one piece bumper kit. We have had two recent distributors sign up (both ex-Stongard guys and one in your area by the way) who themselves said enough with the excessive demands of "one piece kits". 2) We sell many kits to the retail market. The average do-it-yourselfer with patience and a little bit of handiness can install some of the simpler kits and do a good job of it. 3) We offer lots of optional kit pieces the other guys do not. 4) We have always offered "a la carte" purchasing of pieces. Our customers decide what areas they wish to cover. Replacement parts are then cheaper too! And by the way, for our most experienced installers we do offer to do custom work like putting pieces together to make a one piece bumper. We had an excellent installer, Rik at a place called Detailwerks who krinkov may know, who is responsible for some of the kits you see on our website labelled "Rik specials". I believe he used to be a Stongard guy too.
You may be very fortunate to have some of the wealthiest automobile owners in Atlanta as your clientele for whom money is no object but we here at Invinca-Shield try to design and install our kits for the average driving enthusiast. Value is what we offer. Yes, in general our kit designs have more pieces than some other designs. This is for several reasons; 1) We try to balance "one piece design with practicality". Not everyone who installs paint protection films has unlimited hours plus the experience level needed to install a one piece bumper kit. We have had two recent distributors sign up (both ex-Stongard guys and one in your area by the way) who themselves said enough with the excessive demands of "one piece kits". 2) We sell many kits to the retail market. The average do-it-yourselfer with patience and a little bit of handiness can install some of the simpler kits and do a good job of it. 3) We offer lots of optional kit pieces the other guys do not. 4) We have always offered "a la carte" purchasing of pieces. Our customers decide what areas they wish to cover. Replacement parts are then cheaper too! And by the way, for our most experienced installers we do offer to do custom work like putting pieces together to make a one piece bumper. We had an excellent installer, Rik at a place called Detailwerks who krinkov may know, who is responsible for some of the kits you see on our website labelled "Rik specials". I believe he used to be a Stongard guy too.
Why don't you name your new distributors? I believe it is David Dearing at SPEEDFILM.net, he is a good guy. I may be wrong, but I believe David also recognizes that consumers want variety.
01-15-2003, 02:14 PM
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Invinca-ShieldMgr
You introduced yourself to this board by slamming other products. You now see that it is no fun having that done to you. If you feel the other products on the market are at too high a price point, talk up yours and offer it. Telling the members of this forum that they are stupid for spending too much is not the smartest way to do business. If they were getting the same or less for their money, you might be just in your cause. These people chose to spend more to get more. Maybe you should consider this when you design kits in the future.
At DynaShield, we do not design kits for cars under $30,000 retail. We recognize that our products are not suited for cars below that price point. Putting DynaShield on a neon is a laughable as putting your kit on a Ferrari 575. We are not elitists or snobs, we simply chose not to compete with what was already on the market. We saw a need at the high-end and are trying our best to fill it. If the local Chevy dealer told me tomorrow that they needed 100 lumina hoods fast and cheap, I would probably be on the phone to you rather than bother designing my own.
We recognize and respect your place in the market. Please do the same for us.
P.S. Want to buy some door edge guard? Way better and cheaper than StonGards
You introduced yourself to this board by slamming other products. You now see that it is no fun having that done to you. If you feel the other products on the market are at too high a price point, talk up yours and offer it. Telling the members of this forum that they are stupid for spending too much is not the smartest way to do business. If they were getting the same or less for their money, you might be just in your cause. These people chose to spend more to get more. Maybe you should consider this when you design kits in the future.
At DynaShield, we do not design kits for cars under $30,000 retail. We recognize that our products are not suited for cars below that price point. Putting DynaShield on a neon is a laughable as putting your kit on a Ferrari 575. We are not elitists or snobs, we simply chose not to compete with what was already on the market. We saw a need at the high-end and are trying our best to fill it. If the local Chevy dealer told me tomorrow that they needed 100 lumina hoods fast and cheap, I would probably be on the phone to you rather than bother designing my own.
We recognize and respect your place in the market. Please do the same for us.
P.S. Want to buy some door edge guard? Way better and cheaper than StonGards