How the ECU works and what needs to be overcome for NA gains
05-10-2005, 02:37 PM
#61
So If these sensors are acting up w/ NA modz, how are they responding to those spraying Nitrous? I know they are injecting it after the Air Flow Sensor in the Intake, but is this increase in horse power affecting the A/F mapping?
So the Nitrous ppl are not restricted by the fuel system to break the 300 barrier? (well i guess nitrous doesnt fall under the NA catagory)
I've read the previous ECU threads, but this one would have saved me alot of time.
Thanks Sentry65 and all.
So the Nitrous ppl are not restricted by the fuel system to break the 300 barrier? (well i guess nitrous doesnt fall under the NA catagory)
I've read the previous ECU threads, but this one would have saved me alot of time.
Thanks Sentry65 and all.
05-10-2005, 02:43 PM
#63
Originally Posted by GregGSC
To be honast I wouldn't think more than $200 in parts plus a throutle body. We will be working on this over the next few weeks here and i will post what we did on a seperat thread. should start later next week.
Greg
Greg
05-10-2005, 03:23 PM
#64
also talking about nitrous, the ECU can't compensate for nitrous with multiple maps.
An EMS (or many at least) can have aggressive timing for NA, and timing pulled for nitrous
With the ECU flashes, either it's programmed for nitrous with timing pulled, or it's programmed for more timing for aggressive NA...
An EMS (or many at least) can have aggressive timing for NA, and timing pulled for nitrous
With the ECU flashes, either it's programmed for nitrous with timing pulled, or it's programmed for more timing for aggressive NA...
05-10-2005, 03:34 PM
#65
Originally Posted by sentry65
also talking about nitrous, the ECU can't compensate for nitrous with multiple maps.
An EMS (or many at least) can have aggressive timing for NA, and timing pulled for nitrous
With the ECU flashes, either it's programmed for nitrous with timing pulled, or it's programmed for more timing for aggressive NA...
An EMS (or many at least) can have aggressive timing for NA, and timing pulled for nitrous
With the ECU flashes, either it's programmed for nitrous with timing pulled, or it's programmed for more timing for aggressive NA...
05-10-2005, 03:38 PM
#66
05-10-2005, 03:47 PM
#67
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Originally Posted by sentry65
well ok yeah it does all those things and they're all nice. I was thinking this doesn't change how the ECU negates mods though.
GregGSC, how much is involved in switching to a cable throttle? I doubt many people have had experience doing that on the Z. I know it probably isn't insanely difficult but how much money do you think it'll realistically cost to do that?
GregGSC, how much is involved in switching to a cable throttle? I doubt many people have had experience doing that on the Z. I know it probably isn't insanely difficult but how much money do you think it'll realistically cost to do that?
SAFC tune to 7100(6600 if you don't want L-spec) rpm with whatever AF map you want.
O2 simulator in tricking ECU in thinking everything is ok
I don't see how the ECU could negate mods at this point or trhow a SES light
I don't understand why I would want a full standalone system with just bolt-ons.
Last edited by Nano; 05-10-2005 at 03:50 PM.
05-10-2005, 03:51 PM
#68
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This article offers a good description and symptoms of misfiring:
http://www.users.bigpond.com/jack_st...n_misfire.html
Also offers solutions and stuff you can try to get your car back in line. It is my opinion that misfiring after installing breathing mods is more a result of improper installation (vacuum leaks causing a lean condition) than anything else.
http://www.users.bigpond.com/jack_st...n_misfire.html
Also offers solutions and stuff you can try to get your car back in line. It is my opinion that misfiring after installing breathing mods is more a result of improper installation (vacuum leaks causing a lean condition) than anything else.
05-10-2005, 04:28 PM
#69
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So, is there any advantage of having a Drive by Wire system in our Z's? We already know the advantage it has if we were to change it over. Just wondering why Nissan decided to go that route...
05-10-2005, 05:22 PM
#70
RE: Misfiring problem
I have read multiple threads about faulty crank sensors and crank sensor wiring.
The APS TT kit actually comes with a replacement crank angle sensor wire because they have discovered that the stock Nissan wire cannot be depended upon.
Peter @ APS even said that he thought that this problem might be THE main reason FI 350Z's are blowing up.
Just a thought, could a faulty sensor or wire cause this backfire problem?
I have read multiple threads about faulty crank sensors and crank sensor wiring.
The APS TT kit actually comes with a replacement crank angle sensor wire because they have discovered that the stock Nissan wire cannot be depended upon.
Peter @ APS even said that he thought that this problem might be THE main reason FI 350Z's are blowing up.
Just a thought, could a faulty sensor or wire cause this backfire problem?
05-10-2005, 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by uplz4588
well chris mcagle tried the emangae scaling off of a greddy TT map... i dont think that was a good way of doing it as he had to descale (sp) the injectors to get back to stock 290's. im going for an Lspec+Emanage+innovate Wideband (standalone guage kit) i will watch my A/F like a hawk to see any signs of it changing. i can also watch my ignition timing through my Blitz Rvit. so if i have a solid base dataloged of RPM VS Ignition timing at WOT through like 3-5 Gear on tap right after tune+ECU reset i can always go back to that and make sure the car isnt pulling timing.
and if it doesnt and i feel like im loosing power ill know its not pulling timing and ECU is F**ing w/ my MAF. im getting the kinetix IM also so this should add more airflow, BUT its after the MAF so the O2 sensors would need to sence the more air commingin.
i have the nonfouler mod on the TP's also.
any of this make sence?
mods are:
UD crank pully
Injen CAI
Kinetix full IM (comming)
Megan testpipes
Gruppe-s Ypipe
3in Single HKS exhaust
i can get pulled on by a stock 03 Z from a roll... THATS why im dying to get a good tune that wont get hijacked by the ECU... let the quest continue...
and if it doesnt and i feel like im loosing power ill know its not pulling timing and ECU is F**ing w/ my MAF. im getting the kinetix IM also so this should add more airflow, BUT its after the MAF so the O2 sensors would need to sence the more air commingin.
i have the nonfouler mod on the TP's also.
any of this make sence?
mods are:
UD crank pully
Injen CAI
Kinetix full IM (comming)
Megan testpipes
Gruppe-s Ypipe
3in Single HKS exhaust
i can get pulled on by a stock 03 Z from a roll... THATS why im dying to get a good tune that wont get hijacked by the ECU... let the quest continue...
05-10-2005, 06:40 PM
#72
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uplz, keep us updated on whether anything changes as far as ignition timing (excessive adjusting).
Regarding someone saying something about 104 octane (sentry maybe?)...the ECU was using the knock sensor and adjusting ignition timing and i've seen one dyno of someone who used a higher octane and actually gained power (which is unusual).
Regarding someone saying something about 104 octane (sentry maybe?)...the ECU was using the knock sensor and adjusting ignition timing and i've seen one dyno of someone who used a higher octane and actually gained power (which is unusual).
05-10-2005, 08:45 PM
#73
yeah i think i read about someone (probably same person) who used racing gas and made power too - and everyone was probably saying it was BS which normally would be true
uplz4588, I'm not sure what you're asking me? It sounds like something is weird if a stock Z is just as fast as you or faster. Sounds like the ECU is doing weird stuff again.
I think I'm going to end up going APS TT and built engine. Gonna have to go back to stock clutch and stock track wheels and better tires in the meantime so I don't go too far in debt....
I'm not really wanting to be a pioneer. I don't want to spend thousands and thousands of $ on an EMS and tuning and all that crap, just to make the car drive reliably and gain not much power if it is possible to gain power at all.
Yeah I know the crank and cam wires come with the APS kit. If I wasn't going to get the APS kit, I was going to end up getting the wires, oil pan, injectors, fuel pump anyway.
I'm starting to think the TS flash, UR pulley, and tilton clutch and the weird ECU - combined with the rest of the power I have is a potentially engine fatal combo. Maybe it's just my car - it being a aug 2002 build date and all. I've had some bad detonation before and my A/F has been really lean.
very soon, I'm going to revert my TS flash to the L-spec flash to prep for FI. I'll be curious to see if my misfire goes away after that....
My car is quite a bit faster than stock, but one of the main reasons I went this way was because I thought it was safer. Maybe it'spartly my fault in not doing anything else to address fuel other than the TS flash. I don't know. Everyone always was saying the stock injectors are good until like 310whp or so. Maybe I could fix this by adding higher injectors and fuel return system, but it's the part about controlling it and the ECU not messing with stuff I'm concerned about.
Maybe if I fixed the fuel issue (which is still somewhat of a guess) that'll solve all my problems. But still, no one knows. People do know the APS TT kit DOES work and does seem to be reliable. I'm still going to do an engine build up cause I don't trust my rods after all my engine issues.
uplz4588, I'm not sure what you're asking me? It sounds like something is weird if a stock Z is just as fast as you or faster. Sounds like the ECU is doing weird stuff again.
I think I'm going to end up going APS TT and built engine. Gonna have to go back to stock clutch and stock track wheels and better tires in the meantime so I don't go too far in debt....
I'm not really wanting to be a pioneer. I don't want to spend thousands and thousands of $ on an EMS and tuning and all that crap, just to make the car drive reliably and gain not much power if it is possible to gain power at all.
Yeah I know the crank and cam wires come with the APS kit. If I wasn't going to get the APS kit, I was going to end up getting the wires, oil pan, injectors, fuel pump anyway.
I'm starting to think the TS flash, UR pulley, and tilton clutch and the weird ECU - combined with the rest of the power I have is a potentially engine fatal combo. Maybe it's just my car - it being a aug 2002 build date and all. I've had some bad detonation before and my A/F has been really lean.
very soon, I'm going to revert my TS flash to the L-spec flash to prep for FI. I'll be curious to see if my misfire goes away after that....
My car is quite a bit faster than stock, but one of the main reasons I went this way was because I thought it was safer. Maybe it'spartly my fault in not doing anything else to address fuel other than the TS flash. I don't know. Everyone always was saying the stock injectors are good until like 310whp or so. Maybe I could fix this by adding higher injectors and fuel return system, but it's the part about controlling it and the ECU not messing with stuff I'm concerned about.
Maybe if I fixed the fuel issue (which is still somewhat of a guess) that'll solve all my problems. But still, no one knows. People do know the APS TT kit DOES work and does seem to be reliable. I'm still going to do an engine build up cause I don't trust my rods after all my engine issues.
05-10-2005, 08:51 PM
#74
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sentry what i was trying to ask is if the lspec for revlimit ect... and emange to tune the injector cylce/nonfouled testpipes. how would the ecu still pull timing? because all that would be after the MAF. the MAF would only read a higher voltage from the intake drawing in more air due to the rest of the breathing mods? BUT if i hooked up the emanage and had a certaiin percent higher fuel then do you think that the ECU would still override the extra fuel by pulling timing and thus going into the cylcle u talked about?
i
thats why im going to watch my timing also w/ the Rvit ill keep everyone informed about my progress...
i
thats why im going to watch my timing also w/ the Rvit ill keep everyone informed about my progress...
05-10-2005, 10:24 PM
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I think the use of 91 octane gas could be a primary issue/problem. I have always used Premium 93 octane gas and have not had any issues, car always feels great and I've never gone into limp mode/safe mode. I dont have non-foulers or anything like that and the car is fine with no SES light. I believe when you run 91 octane (especially Shell, it's crap goto Sunoco) you are riding on the knock sensor and the ECU throws a ***** fit. A good tune should solve this issue but you will make less power than someone using 93 octane. I remember Sport Compact did a dyno test and tune on their project 350z and found the 91 octane to be a real annoyance/issue. They even went as far as to blame the NISMO R-Tune's minimal gains on the crappy gas. F/I or N/A you will need to tackle this issue but instead of a misfire or limp mode you could be looking at a blown motor. You've already invested so much in N/A I would stay the course. Are there no stations in CA that offer 93 oct premium at the pump?
As for my hatred for Shell:
CAR OWNERS RUSH TO FILE CLAIMS
Source: PATRICK DANNER, pdanner@herald.com
About 9,000 people who reported that their cars' gas-gauge sensors were damaged either by Shell or Texaco gasoline have filed claims seeking reimbursement. About 80 South Florida stations remained closed as of late Tuesday afternoon, and several dozen others were only selling premium gasoline, said Johan Zaayman, a spokesman for supplier Motiva Enterprises of Houston.The company, which previously said all of the 420 stations reopened over the weekend, said Tuesday that it
Published on June 2, 2004, Page 1C, Miami Herald, The (FL)
As for my hatred for Shell:
CAR OWNERS RUSH TO FILE CLAIMS
Source: PATRICK DANNER, pdanner@herald.com
About 9,000 people who reported that their cars' gas-gauge sensors were damaged either by Shell or Texaco gasoline have filed claims seeking reimbursement. About 80 South Florida stations remained closed as of late Tuesday afternoon, and several dozen others were only selling premium gasoline, said Johan Zaayman, a spokesman for supplier Motiva Enterprises of Houston.The company, which previously said all of the 420 stations reopened over the weekend, said Tuesday that it
Published on June 2, 2004, Page 1C, Miami Herald, The (FL)
05-10-2005, 10:39 PM
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ok i have a quick question..
for those that do na mods.. ie intake spacer header exhaust..
are you stating that the mods will make no power and actually net the user less power than stock?
or will it remain the same or will the power come up from stock and then gradually degrade over time?
My main concern is i just want to make the z sound a little more agressive but i do not want to lose power.
Will bolting a y pipe back exhaust net me any power gains and keep them or am i totally screwed and will lose horsepower.
for those that do na mods.. ie intake spacer header exhaust..
are you stating that the mods will make no power and actually net the user less power than stock?
or will it remain the same or will the power come up from stock and then gradually degrade over time?
My main concern is i just want to make the z sound a little more agressive but i do not want to lose power.
Will bolting a y pipe back exhaust net me any power gains and keep them or am i totally screwed and will lose horsepower.
05-11-2005, 12:59 AM
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just gonna have to go to the airport and get 100 if we want any decent gas out here.. woo hoo $5 a gallon!
p.s. DONT go to the airport, its leaded gas, unless you REALLY want to mess up your O2 sensors and cats. Thier are places where people can get 100 octane unleaded around. 10 min of searching on the web looks like union 76 took down the racing fuel page so lets post locations...
p.s. DONT go to the airport, its leaded gas, unless you REALLY want to mess up your O2 sensors and cats. Thier are places where people can get 100 octane unleaded around. 10 min of searching on the web looks like union 76 took down the racing fuel page so lets post locations...
Last edited by the7ferret; 05-11-2005 at 01:18 AM.
05-11-2005, 04:46 AM
#80
Originally Posted by sentry65
.........I'm not really wanting to be a pioneer. I don't want to spend thousands and thousands of $ on an EMS and tuning and all that crap, just to make the car drive reliably and gain not much power if it is possible to gain power at all.........
............ People do know the APS TT kit DOES work and does seem to be reliable. I'm still going to do an engine build up cause I don't trust my rods after all my engine issues.
............ People do know the APS TT kit DOES work and does seem to be reliable. I'm still going to do an engine build up cause I don't trust my rods after all my engine issues.
I have read about many disappointments.
I have been through "being a pioneer" with other cars and have learned my lesson; it can be extremely expensive with little or no payback.
I think your APS TT decision would be the best considering all that I have learned, and it is the path that I am inclined to take as well.
A year ago, everyone was saying that it would just be a matter of time before the ECM/ECU would be fully understood. Since the 350Z's ECM or ECU has changed year to year, hacking it has become even more difficult. It is a moving target that few aftermarket companies or tuners are willing to figure out.