Thinking of a fully built motor w/o FI
Originally Posted by ALong
Lukesnyder,
Re-read my post, I said the JGTC GT300 cars, not the GT500 cars, big difference...
Re-read my post, I said the JGTC GT300 cars, not the GT500 cars, big difference...
that's why it's called incidently.... GT300
they don't have 450hp
Last edited by Nano; Jul 9, 2005 at 12:20 PM.
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From: King of Materbation
Originally Posted by ALong
Lukesnyder,
Re-read my post, I said the JGTC GT300 cars, not the GT500 cars, big difference, the GT500 cars are the factory turbo cars with the 3.0. The GT300 cars use the NA VQ35.
Re-read my post, I said the JGTC GT300 cars, not the GT500 cars, big difference, the GT500 cars are the factory turbo cars with the 3.0. The GT300 cars use the NA VQ35.
Regarding GrandAm, GrandAm allows you to use whatever they want to let you use. They dont make you run parts "available to the general public". Their rulebook may say that, but its not true. Try purchasing any of the parts of the Ford Mustang FR500 at your local Ford dealer, or better yet go to your local Cadillac dealer and try to buy all the Carbon Fiber body panels off the Caddillac CTV, the parts guy will think your crazy and laugh at you.
The 350Z in GrandAm use the Nismo S1 camshafts, not the R-tune camshafts they sell in the US, there is a big difference between the two, and NO the GrandAm Cup cars do not use "All Nismo R-Tune parts." Outside of the Nismo S1 Camshafts and Headers, they use fabricated raceparts. Try buying a set of S1 camshafts at your local Nissan dealer.....
You are also wrong about overboaring the motor, GrandAm allows factory over-bore pistons to be installed up to "second oversize piston." You need to read their rule book a little closer.
To discuss this further please pm me instead of nit picking each other. I am here to gather information from people who know and have done this. Your install and expertise of installing your own pop charger isn't quite the credentials I would follow.
Crawford may be getting 300hp with bolt ons, but to get anymore, is when you have to start spending the big $$$.
Yes you can build a 400whp Turbo car cheap, no the motor is probably not going to last 100k miles. But its not going to cost $30k to build a reliable motor. To take the block out and install low compression pistons does not cost anywhere near 30k, depending upon piston brand etc, and if you change any other internals, you could probably do this for as little as $5k. Yes if you want a fully built motor, will all new internals, head work different valves and pistons etc you are probably looking at $10-15k for the motor but 30k? No way, no unless you are also switching over to a stand alone engine management system like Motec or EFI.
Last edited by EM-EFER; Jul 9, 2005 at 12:43 PM.
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Originally Posted by lukesnyder
But you stated 450hp so I just assumed you met the GT500 b/c the GT300 cars are at 300hp.
So you race the grand-am cup? How would you know if you can go against the rule book? Both examples that you stated have nothing to due with motor modifications. No dealer will laugh it you go to a nissan dealer and say I would like fully built nismo heads. They would see $$$$$
My mistake if I am wrong. I read this in GT MAG. The only two they said were different was 350EVO's car and TOMEI. EVO is using JWT and Tomei is obvious.
I actually just read it from head to toe. Heres my analysis... it allows .30 over regardless of bore of other cylinders. Read the bottom
To discuss this further please pm me instead of nit picking each other. I am here to gather information from people who know and have done this. Your install and expertise of installing your own pop charger isn't quite the credentials I would follow.
Aware of this. That what I am willing to do / find out.
It will run around 15G's??? for TT/motor built/FMS/Gauges/Tuning time/Install/shipping/taxes... Please help me contact somone who will do that for me. More like mid to high 20's. I rounded to 30. My bad...
So you race the grand-am cup? How would you know if you can go against the rule book? Both examples that you stated have nothing to due with motor modifications. No dealer will laugh it you go to a nissan dealer and say I would like fully built nismo heads. They would see $$$$$
My mistake if I am wrong. I read this in GT MAG. The only two they said were different was 350EVO's car and TOMEI. EVO is using JWT and Tomei is obvious.
I actually just read it from head to toe. Heres my analysis... it allows .30 over regardless of bore of other cylinders. Read the bottom
To discuss this further please pm me instead of nit picking each other. I am here to gather information from people who know and have done this. Your install and expertise of installing your own pop charger isn't quite the credentials I would follow.
Aware of this. That what I am willing to do / find out.
It will run around 15G's??? for TT/motor built/FMS/Gauges/Tuning time/Install/shipping/taxes... Please help me contact somone who will do that for me. More like mid to high 20's. I rounded to 30. My bad...
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From: King of Materbation
Originally Posted by nis350ztt
Why are you looking at TT kits if you are only wanting 400rwhp N/A?
Originally Posted by along
Yes you can build a 400whp Turbo car cheap, no the motor is probably not going to last 100k miles. But its not going to cost $30k to build a reliable motor. To take the block out and install low compression pistons does not cost anywhere near 30k, depending upon piston brand etc, and if you change any other internals, you could probably do this for as little as $5k. Yes if you want a fully built motor, will all new internals, head work different valves and pistons etc you are probably looking at $10-15k for the motor but 30k? No way, no unless you are also switching over to a stand alone engine management system like Motec or EFI.
If you get the build short block (like you would for a FI system) and put the remaining 8k (That would be for TT) towards the head and the rest of the parts I believe there may be a possiblility of it being worth your time. Everyone obviously goes for FI b/c bang for the buck / easiest gains. I really wish one guy would finish building a total NA beast so I know whats in store for me time wise.
Last edited by EM-EFER; Jul 9, 2005 at 01:07 PM.
I have really been back and forth on this whole NA vs. FI issue and I still am a bit miffed about the whole thing. At first I wanted a stock FI setup that I could run on stock boost and not worry about it. Then people started blowing motors and having issues... I thought, ok NA here we come. Then came the difficulty of finding parts that would make power. So I was thinking, ok FI with built motor done the right way. And yeah it is really freaking pricey, 20-30k is very reasonable. This block simply was not made for boost, it is no SR20DET or 3SGTE. Some are lucky and get away with cutting corners but it is a gamble. And if you blow the block it is, most certainly, not cheap to replace as other motor swaps can be. I say look at Sharif and 350zCalb (sp?) to see FI done right on this vehicle. I thought about it for awhile and decided I didn't want to spend $30k on a Turbo Z that would be difficult to maintain, scary to drive, and I would still always wonder if something was going to go wrong.
So, being back on the NA track, I am taking a wait and see approach. I think 350EVO has alot of good stuff coming along for NA Zers so we just haveta hold out and see. They have a Intake Manifold with big promises as well as a set of long tube headers coming along. I saw a JUN High Compression setup on a Best Motoring DVD and it looked like so much fun. I believe it was pushing over 350ps, so I think with bolt ons, tuning, and more adjustments 350whp is a reasonable goal for NA. Individual Throttle Bodies are also something you will want to consider for HUGE NA gains, as well as more low end and more stable idle. Spend the rest of your money on tires, suspension, and brakes and you will post better times than FIers with rediculously big wheels and "upgraded" brakes that take longer to stop than OEM!
So, being back on the NA track, I am taking a wait and see approach. I think 350EVO has alot of good stuff coming along for NA Zers so we just haveta hold out and see. They have a Intake Manifold with big promises as well as a set of long tube headers coming along. I saw a JUN High Compression setup on a Best Motoring DVD and it looked like so much fun. I believe it was pushing over 350ps, so I think with bolt ons, tuning, and more adjustments 350whp is a reasonable goal for NA. Individual Throttle Bodies are also something you will want to consider for HUGE NA gains, as well as more low end and more stable idle. Spend the rest of your money on tires, suspension, and brakes and you will post better times than FIers with rediculously big wheels and "upgraded" brakes that take longer to stop than OEM!
Originally Posted by ReavTek
I have really been back and forth on this whole NA vs. FI issue and I still am a bit miffed about the whole thing. At first I wanted a stock FI setup that I could run on stock boost and not worry about it. Then people started blowing motors and having issues... I thought, ok NA here we come. Then came the difficulty of finding parts that would make power. So I was thinking, ok FI with built motor done the right way. And yeah it is really freaking pricey, 20-30k is very reasonable. This block simply was not made for boost, it is no SR20DET or 3SGTE. Some are lucky and get away with cutting corners but it is a gamble. And if you blow the block it is, most certainly, not cheap to replace as other motor swaps can be. I say look at Sharif and 350zCalb (sp?) to see FI done right on this vehicle. I thought about it for awhile and decided I didn't want to spend $30k on a Turbo Z that would be difficult to maintain, scary to drive, and I would still always wonder if something was going to go wrong.
So, being back on the NA track, I am taking a wait and see approach. I think 350EVO has alot of good stuff coming along for NA Zers so we just haveta hold out and see. They have a Intake Manifold with big promises as well as a set of long tube headers coming along. I saw a JUN High Compression setup on a Best Motoring DVD and it looked like so much fun. I believe it was pushing over 350ps, so I think with bolt ons, tuning, and more adjustments 350whp is a reasonable goal for NA. Individual Throttle Bodies are also something you will want to consider for HUGE NA gains, as well as more low end and more stable idle. Spend the rest of your money on tires, suspension, and brakes and you will post better times than FIers with rediculously big wheels and "upgraded" brakes that take longer to stop than OEM!
So, being back on the NA track, I am taking a wait and see approach. I think 350EVO has alot of good stuff coming along for NA Zers so we just haveta hold out and see. They have a Intake Manifold with big promises as well as a set of long tube headers coming along. I saw a JUN High Compression setup on a Best Motoring DVD and it looked like so much fun. I believe it was pushing over 350ps, so I think with bolt ons, tuning, and more adjustments 350whp is a reasonable goal for NA. Individual Throttle Bodies are also something you will want to consider for HUGE NA gains, as well as more low end and more stable idle. Spend the rest of your money on tires, suspension, and brakes and you will post better times than FIers with rediculously big wheels and "upgraded" brakes that take longer to stop than OEM!
I think a 350-380 hp, NA 350z with the right setup and proper weight reduction would be the absolute blast. I hate nissan so much for making life so hard... when this engine clearly has more potential.... bastards
Last edited by Nano; Jul 9, 2005 at 02:17 PM.
Nano and lukesnyder,
Yes I know that GT300 is "limited" to 300hp, but guess what, those cars all make 450+hp. Obviously you guys dont race cars or have been around racing alot. What a rule book says, isnt necessarily reality. In JGTC the cars are required to run Intake Restrictors to "limit horsepower to 300" . The GT300 VQ35 make 450+ without the restrictor, with the restrictor they are still making well over 300hp (probably 400+).
As far as your comments about the GrandAm Cup rule book, my point was 1) you are allowed to overbore the motor, which initially you commented that you couldnt, and 2) The line about about "Parts available to General Public" means that a factory backed race team cant come in and make special parts for their cars and not give access to those parts to other teams running the same car, has nothing to do about going to your local dealer and being able to buy something from the parts counter. You need to understand that a rulebook is not Black and White as far as what you can and cant do. Its Grey, and you need to read between the lines otherwise you will never be competitive. How do I know? I have been racing and building cars for 9 years.
Nice comment about the popcharger......
This cost argument is really starting to get old. Good luck with the NA motor. I think it is fairly obvious that hp for hp, a FI motor is cheaper than NA. If you start comparing a Built FI motor to a Built NA motor, then yes the FI motor will be more expensive, but if you compare a stock motor with FI to a Built NA motor (which is what I thought we were originally talking about) then the FI motor is cheaper, there shouldnt be any argument about that.
Yes I know that GT300 is "limited" to 300hp, but guess what, those cars all make 450+hp. Obviously you guys dont race cars or have been around racing alot. What a rule book says, isnt necessarily reality. In JGTC the cars are required to run Intake Restrictors to "limit horsepower to 300" . The GT300 VQ35 make 450+ without the restrictor, with the restrictor they are still making well over 300hp (probably 400+).
As far as your comments about the GrandAm Cup rule book, my point was 1) you are allowed to overbore the motor, which initially you commented that you couldnt, and 2) The line about about "Parts available to General Public" means that a factory backed race team cant come in and make special parts for their cars and not give access to those parts to other teams running the same car, has nothing to do about going to your local dealer and being able to buy something from the parts counter. You need to understand that a rulebook is not Black and White as far as what you can and cant do. Its Grey, and you need to read between the lines otherwise you will never be competitive. How do I know? I have been racing and building cars for 9 years.
Nice comment about the popcharger......
This cost argument is really starting to get old. Good luck with the NA motor. I think it is fairly obvious that hp for hp, a FI motor is cheaper than NA. If you start comparing a Built FI motor to a Built NA motor, then yes the FI motor will be more expensive, but if you compare a stock motor with FI to a Built NA motor (which is what I thought we were originally talking about) then the FI motor is cheaper, there shouldnt be any argument about that.
Originally Posted by ReavTek
Individual Throttle Bodies are also something you will want to consider for HUGE NA gains, as well as more low end and more stable idle.
to my knowledge, ITB's give you less low end power/torque, and a lot more high end, rougher idle, and custom ECU/EMS
You do not loose power or torque with ITB's. The engine breaths through the throttle body, it you add more throttle bodies, the engine breaths in a larger volume of air, making more HP and TRQ. Also with ITB's the throttle response is quickened dramatically. I drive E46 M3's on a daily basis and the throttle response is just increadible, I wish the VQ35 was even close.
Lukesnyder will need ITBs if he wants to have a motor with 400rwhp. The only other way I can see getting that much HP would be increasing displacement signifigantly, ie: 4.0 stroker kit. Personally I would stay with the 3.5 and go with ITB's, Nismo heads, S1 or S2 cams etc.
Lukesnyder, have you talked to any engine builders yet? Contact Sunbelt Engineering, Alan Jensen Racing or Rebello, they would be the engine builders that I would look at using.
Lukesnyder will need ITBs if he wants to have a motor with 400rwhp. The only other way I can see getting that much HP would be increasing displacement signifigantly, ie: 4.0 stroker kit. Personally I would stay with the 3.5 and go with ITB's, Nismo heads, S1 or S2 cams etc.
Lukesnyder, have you talked to any engine builders yet? Contact Sunbelt Engineering, Alan Jensen Racing or Rebello, they would be the engine builders that I would look at using.
Contact Tommy Kaira, they have some, also Nismo Japan (for race applications) and you can contact Haltech in the US (if they dont have an off the shelf application for the Z they can custom build them easily). As far as electronics go, call Motec and or EFI. All you need is the $$$
Originally Posted by sentry65
someone show me some ITB's that are out on the market for the Z that I can buy right now and include a way to control them
.....you can hear a pin drop
.....you can hear a pin drop
Toda Racing is supposed to have something similar to this out
If you do this. You would be my hero guaranteed. Would love to see this!
And one other thing. I am very sure the VQ35 is very underrated for it's NA capabilities. Last thing i would do is listen to opinions on this thread. I would still love to see a NA beast 350z well done as of yet.
And one other thing. I am very sure the VQ35 is very underrated for it's NA capabilities. Last thing i would do is listen to opinions on this thread. I would still love to see a NA beast 350z well done as of yet.
Last edited by Zexy; Jul 9, 2005 at 04:54 PM.
ok, so we have 2 pictures (both of which I've seen) and two companies (which I've also heard about) that supposivly mass market these to the public
now, where do I buy them from? Where do I click the Add to Cart button?
where do I buy the custom engine management?
now, where do I buy them from? Where do I click the Add to Cart button?
where do I buy the custom engine management?
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From: King of Materbation
Lukesnyder, have you talked to any engine builders yet? Contact Sunbelt Engineering, Alan Jensen Racing or Rebello, they would be the engine builders that I would look at using.
The guy replied "I sales representive will contact you on Monday."
I talked to SGP about a month ago about this and they said it could be possible but it would cost $$$ because the lack of parts for the Z and alot of fabrication parts would be needed.
I am going to see what Kaira says first.
If you're going to start actually researching and calling Japan to get numbers, I'm definitely subscribing. Good luck on your information scrounging, I hope people get back to you soon. My only $.02 here: I would definitely consider the 4.3L AEBS stroker kit. Seems like another .8L would be an easy way to add more gas & air. (Not to mention the 11.0 and 11.3:1 CR choice)
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From: King of Materbation
Originally Posted by Landbarger
If you're going to start actually researching and calling Japan to get numbers, I'm definitely subscribing. Good luck on your information scrounging, I hope people get back to you soon. My only $.02 here: I would definitely consider the 4.3L AEBS stroker kit. Seems like another .8L would be an easy way to add more gas & air. (Not to mention the 11.0 and 11.3:1 CR choice)
Good luck with the search. If there is not off the shelf item readily available I don't see what the big deal is in having it custom made for you. Shouldn't be too much of a hassle. Really I am hitting a brick wall right now, I have about $1500 that I want to spend on an upgrade but I dont know if i'll eventually want ITBs and a standalone ECU or what. I'm thinking of buying some cams (276/256) and just sticking them in with a valvetrain upgrade later on but then I'll need a reflash. Blargh so torn... I wish I had around 10k so I could just do it all at once! 
What are your guys thoughts on power numbers with a set of NISMO Spec 1 Cams VQ35DE (276/256) on a Z with a standalone, ITBs, and all the bolt ons?
What are your guys thoughts on power numbers with a set of NISMO Spec 1 Cams VQ35DE (276/256) on a Z with a standalone, ITBs, and all the bolt ons?
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From: King of Materbation
Originally Posted by ReavTek
Good luck with the search. If there is not off the shelf item readily available I don't see what the big deal is in having it custom made for you. Shouldn't be too much of a hassle. Really I am hitting a brick wall right now, I have about $1500 that I want to spend on an upgrade but I dont know if i'll eventually want ITBs and a standalone ECU or what. I'm thinking of buying some cams (276/256) and just sticking them in with a valvetrain upgrade later on but then I'll need a reflash. Blargh so torn... I wish I had around 10k so I could just do it all at once! What are your guys thoughts on power numbers with a set of NISMO Spec 1 Cams VQ35DE (276/256) on a Z with a standalone, ITBs, and all the bolt ons?
What are your guys thoughts on power numbers with a set of NISMO Spec 1 Cams VQ35DE (276/256) on a Z with a standalone, ITBs, and all the bolt ons?