Resolute

iTrader: (2)

The Nismo Spec2 cams run 284 duration with 12.5mm of lift.; That's pretty damn aggressive as it is. I don't see the need to grind custom cams. Also, The 911 GT3 runs 12:1 compression ratio on 91 octane. Also uses almost identical cam specs with variable intake timing. Makes 415hp with it's 3.6 liters. I think we already have the parts to make big NA power, but wjo has the tuning skills to make it work? And who has the cash to blow up an engine or two trying?
Will

nismology1

You can't compare the GT3 engine to the VQ for a number of reasons. You'll have to search for the thread where those reasons are discussed.

nismology1

The nismo heads are not bolt-on-and-play. Simply installing production 3.5 cams in those heads will result in excessive valve clearance which can't be fixed by getting different lifters from nissan. You have to get custom cams ground with a larger base circle like nismo blanks. They come in two stages (284 duration with 11mm max lift possible and 312 duration and 14mm max lift possible). The cheapest prices i've seen are $889 and $1430 respectively, on top of the price of having them ground down for the desired profile. Another thing is, the resulting compression ratio with those heads is over 12:1 which would force one to have to get custom pistons made to lower it to a more manageable 12:1 or lower, plus the cost of machining the block. These got my attention because a smaller combustion chamber with minimal piston dome is the ideal way to raise compression but with all the hassle and expense involved it just doesn't seem worth it to me.

The nismo VTC are made for improved low rpm and mid-range performance when used in conjunction with an aftermarket cam timing controller such as the V-manage that is set to be released soon. I don't wish to get into the theory explaining why, though.

With the VQ35 you'll need to make HP via revs. BIG intake cams (280*+ duration) with 11mm+ of lift, relatively big exhaust cams (~ 265-270* duration) combined with higher compression and a built bottom end that can support the kind of revs that cams that big want is the ticket. Headwork wouldn't hurt either.

Resolute

iTrader: (2)

Yes I can. and I don't care enough to search for a thread. The dimensions are almost identical, the heads flow about the same (depending on who you believe more- Nissan or Cosworth) , the cam action is the same, the Motronic timing control is identical in operation to the CVTCC, the GT3 engine does NOT use Variocam Plus with variable lift, and despite the H6 naturally being dynamically better balanced than a V6, offers little in difference to the VQ in all the areas that matter.
Will

booger

iTrader: (6)

There is a member on this forum that says he has gone passed the 300whp mark by a mile . He claims 340whp . ISMSOLUTIONS is his screen name . He said he made that whp , but wont tell you how he did it . hush, hush . Says the motor is out of the car now , to be taken apart for research . All the parts will be available in 2008....thats what he says any way.

Oh..I did tell him the only way he could of madee that power was a stroker kit with high compression and radical cams . And all a sudden , he then says thats how he did it . SOme one else asked hiw what EMU he used and he never came back to the thread

Resolute

iTrader: (2)

I wonder if that's the guy that claimed his build was done in like three days, used Ti rods, etc.. Never had any pictures to post or gave out the name of his builder. Never had the brands of any of the parts he used. The whole thread went on for like 20 pages with no pics or any proof. IIRC, he did have a nice Ford Lightning, though.
Will

Z1 Performance

iTrader: (564)

nope, different guy...I remember that thread too!!! ^

3 people have broken 300 whp to date, at least that I know of. 1 was done on a Dynapack, so its not really considered "legit"...I can accept that I guess. The other was done a long time ago (3 years or close) with pistons, cams, Crawford heads/plenum and then a series of flashes through the mail via TS, and the guy has since gone on to make BIG FI power (over 700 whp). The third is Richie in Australia, who also can't do a dynojet because none are near him. But if you take his whp number (he has posted it) and convert from kw to hp, he is making #'s on par with the best of the JDM cars

As for any others, without a sheet, its all heresay IMHO

Trust me guys, you'll see more NA power this year from a variety of owners and setups

rocks

iTrader: (1)

Im just waiting on finishing my exhaust before i go to an out of town dyno on my revup. I have a feeling i should make some good power from the cams, even untuned. I have to wait for my income taxes for some engine managment. Myabe i need a 2nd job for more car parts haha.

Resolute

iTrader: (2)

I remember the 314whp guy that got bashed like a red-headed stepchild because his numbers were on a Dynapack. His dyno seemed off and caused a huge ****storm of fighting over dyno types and variances, etc.. In the end he never made it to a Dynojet and that was that. Ritchie is the standard bearer for sure. He posted his baseline and with his build complete, it was obvious that Aussie dynos read low like he said. He only baselined around 220whp with minor mods, but when you add his gain onto a "standard" 240whp US pull, he would arguably be over 330whp.
So, Z1.. what's coming down the pipeline on NA power that you know and we don't? Care to share some speculations or details?
Will

booger

iTrader: (6)

Well he only claimed this on G35driver . He wouldnt do it here

https://my350z.com/forum/showthread.php?

here is a link of a thread I started . I was banned on G35 because I kept confronting him about his bull chit claims . I PMed him a link to this thread , but I doubt you see him post...lol

nismology1

So according to you what is the major difference? What cam specs does it run? What's the rod/stroke ratio like?


I think that the IM is a bottleneck, but can't think of anything else that would bridge the huge gap. 400 HP to the crank is a ways off.

Steve-O Z33

iTrader: (10)

Haven't a few people hit 300? Someone told me that the guy who owns Axis wheels had a few 350Zs and that 1 was NA with 300whp.

There was an article in some magazine last year with a 300 WHP Z. It was C16 I think. 1 of my friends told me to get it and I missed out on that issue.

Cannysage

iTrader: (29)

make sure to use dynapack for some happy numbers.. I've got 284.7whp SAE corrected, without cams

don't put too much importance on dyno numbers, though.. it's just a tool to track power gains amongst other stuff.

Z1 Performance

iTrader: (564)

GT3

100.00mm × 76.40mm borexstroke

ratio: 1.31

3600cc, 12.0:1

DME fuel control

8400 rpm redline

113.6 bhp/litre

no idea the cam specs

nismology1

It's geometry is nothing like the VQ35's then. It's way oversquare, similar to the VQ30. I'm pretty sure the cam specs are SICK on that motor. Does anyone know if the VarioCam they use control both the inlet and exhaust cam timing?

o snap its eric

iTrader: (5)

Z1, you said this year we will see a lot of owners and shops with NA power however will these parts ever make it into production? It would suck if they can make the power however it will not be mass produced and will only be produced for the ones who can spend $$ for it.

Also this NA power mods, will it benefit us the first gen VQ motors or will most of the R&D go to the new HR motor? It seems like once the HR motor gets more saturated, the first gen motors will be quickly forgotten. =(

Fingers

iTrader: (6)

Maybe in a few years we can all just get GT-R engines and have them put into our 350zs, this is what I am going to try to wait for. I think a brand new rev-up costs about $12,000 from nissan, so maybe I'll get lucky and the GT-R engine will be less then $20,000( which is what everybody says is the price for doing twin turbo the right way.) I don't know what the big deal is with a high compression ratio, my old bike didn't need race gas.

Z1 Performance

iTrader: (564)

the parts are in production, and have been in production for awhile. It's not an inexpensive endeavor to make good power on these in NA form, but it can be done, has been done, and you'll see more people doing it throughout this year.

If you are looking for huge power gains, into the 300's, on the cheap, for this, or any modern NA car, it simply won't happen. Making that sort of power increase vs what the car makes stock, whether in NA or FI form, takes a significant investment of money and time by the owner of the car. Without that sort of cash and time outlay, I'd suggest sticking to the basic bolt ons, without trying to chase a rainbow, and simply enjoy the car for what it is - it's a very entertaining, and enjoyable car in nearly stock or lightly modded form.

There are far more first gen VQ's than HR's - so I think its safe to say that while the HR market will develop over time, there is not going to be a "mad rush" to replace the non HR's

Adam
www.z1auto.com
Z1 Performance

Resolute

iTrader: (2)

The geometry isn't very important, although I think it's very similiar to the VQ. Over square vs undersquare, rod/stroke ratio.. these are not major limiting factors. Good to know for sure, but not that important. Especially the bore to stroke ratio. Consider for example the KA24, the SR20 and the RB26. The KA has a better rod/stroke ratio than either the SR or the RB. Infact, the SR's rod/stroke ratio is the worst of the three at 1.58. The RB is slightly better at 1.65, but the KA is the worst of the three for revs and breathing despite a better rod/stroke ratio. The heads and valvtrain configuration has more to do with the ability to make big NA power than anything. A good rod/stroke ratio will benefit high rpm breathing for sure, but it is not as important as a head and valvetrain that will accomodate the airflow. The KA is an excellent example of that. By comparison, the SR rod/stroke ratio sucks but will run 8K rpm all day. The SR16VE runs a shorter stroke and longer rod to help in the high rpm department, but the better rod/stroke ratio is primarily used for longevity as the SR16 has WAY lower piston accel from TDC and BDC because of it. The real strength of the SR16's record holding specific output is aggressive cams and a ported head that flows air better than any production engine ought to.
As far as the engine configuration, the VQ has a better ratio than the RB or the KA with a 1.77 rod/stroke. That's identical BTW to Ferrari's 3.6L V8 used in the 360 CS. The VQ bore of 95.5mm beats the Porsche for anti-detonation due to smaller area for the flame front to cover. Smaller piston areas are more efficient for this reason. It's not an earth shattering difference, but it's in the VQ's favor. The VQ is set up just fine to run high rpm.
The factors that are in common with the Porsche are the ones that are important. Both engines have high flowing heads. Both use Variable valve timing on the intake side only. The Porsche has 30 degrees of adjustment by the Motronic ECU, this can be done with Nismo CVTC pullies on the VQ. Both use a cam on bucket design with enough wiping pad to facilitate aggressive cams. Porsche GT3 cam specs are 284 duration with 12mm lift, similiar cams are made by Nismo for the VQ. Both use a single throttle body, but the Porsche has a better IM. The Porsche uses a dry-sump lube but and accusump can be fitted to the VQ.
My point is that the VQ has no major design limitations for high rpm use, and there are parts available to make good NA power. The Porsche is a good comparison as both engines have many critical factors in common.
The question is the same though, who's got the money to put as much tuning into the VQ as a major OEM can their own production engine? This is the current limitation I think on NA VQ's.
Will

nismology1

Good info ya got there for sure. I enjoy these types of discussions. And yes i'm quite aware that the VQ35 is suitable for high revs. I've read that the OEM crank is good to 10k+ RPM in race applications.

The cams and nismo VTC pulleys are gonna be the key IMO. Nismo offers cams with the same exact intake duration as the GT3's but have a full mm less lift @ 11mm. Tomei offers an intake cam with 280* @ 11.3mm lift. I plan on personally running these along with their 272* @ 11mm lift exhaust cams (unless another cam set grabs my interest) along with cosworth bearings and other internal considerations. Should be interesting.

:edit: Whoops...almost forgot about the cosworth IM. I wonder how that'll work out.