Need help with Force Induction
Need help with Force Induction
Okie. Coming from the land of BMW to Nissan is going to be quite the trek. I've absolutely ZERO knowledge of force induction other than the "How stuff works" guide to turbos... actually pretty useful.
Anyhow! All this talk about this GReddy twin turbo and other kits coming out, I am absolutely drooling over the thought of 500+ RWHP. In BMW that is pretty much unobtainable. So my question is this. I want to do things right in this car. I am willing to spend the bucks to make it fast, as well as the money to make sure that the car runs like a dream and can handle the power. I am not looking to cut corners. So if anyone knows someone I can talk to about the generals of this stuff, or know a shop in south florida that knows their **** (A lot of places DON'T!)... I'd be most appreciative. I know there is someplace down here ledgendary for their work with the RX-7 but the name is slipping my mind. Anyhow if you guys have any useful links or phone numbers so I can start educating my self, hook me up
~Josh
Anyhow! All this talk about this GReddy twin turbo and other kits coming out, I am absolutely drooling over the thought of 500+ RWHP. In BMW that is pretty much unobtainable. So my question is this. I want to do things right in this car. I am willing to spend the bucks to make it fast, as well as the money to make sure that the car runs like a dream and can handle the power. I am not looking to cut corners. So if anyone knows someone I can talk to about the generals of this stuff, or know a shop in south florida that knows their **** (A lot of places DON'T!)... I'd be most appreciative. I know there is someplace down here ledgendary for their work with the RX-7 but the name is slipping my mind. Anyhow if you guys have any useful links or phone numbers so I can start educating my self, hook me up
~Josh
Ah yes once again, I see WHY it is that the BMW forums are so well reguarded. Cause everyone here is an arrogant ***** it seems. Cute. Other than the fact that I can tell that 95% of the people on this board don't have a damn clue what they are talking about, it seems a good portion of you are snappy, "Internet angry" children.... I asked for helpful links... and I suppose in your eye's I should be avoiding making a new thread by using the search. Well stop boosting your post score by trying to insult me. Be helpful or keep your mouth shut.
Banned
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 250
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From: MARS
Originally posted by Jergens
Ah yes once again, I see WHY it is that the BMW forums are so well reguarded. Cause everyone here is an arrogant ***** it seems. Cute. Other than the fact that I can tell that 95% of the people on this board don't have a damn clue what they are talking about, it seems a good portion of you are snappy, "Internet angry" children.... I asked for helpful links... and I suppose in your eye's I should be avoiding making a new thread by using the search. Well stop boosting your post score by trying to insult me. Be helpful or keep your mouth shut.
Ah yes once again, I see WHY it is that the BMW forums are so well reguarded. Cause everyone here is an arrogant ***** it seems. Cute. Other than the fact that I can tell that 95% of the people on this board don't have a damn clue what they are talking about, it seems a good portion of you are snappy, "Internet angry" children.... I asked for helpful links... and I suppose in your eye's I should be avoiding making a new thread by using the search. Well stop boosting your post score by trying to insult me. Be helpful or keep your mouth shut.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Hey Jergens,
Sorry you didn't get any help. There are a lot of jerks on these forums and I think that is funny since they don't know much about cars themselves but pretend to be the all knowing.
Try this guy. He was super nice to me and very knowledgeable. This guy is also working on BMW's now so you can have some words to swap there too.
http://www.malvernracing.com/showcase.html
To add forced induction and add boost over 5-7 lbs, you will want to change your pistons to a lower compression and mine as well go forged right away. If money isn't an object then that is good because you will spend alot of it to build a good motor. Your fuel system will need upgrading also and a stand alone fuel management would be a nice addition but may not be needed. Good Luck and if you have any other questions just ask. Ignore the jerks since they are the ones that are clueless anyways.
Sorry you didn't get any help. There are a lot of jerks on these forums and I think that is funny since they don't know much about cars themselves but pretend to be the all knowing.
Try this guy. He was super nice to me and very knowledgeable. This guy is also working on BMW's now so you can have some words to swap there too.
http://www.malvernracing.com/showcase.html
To add forced induction and add boost over 5-7 lbs, you will want to change your pistons to a lower compression and mine as well go forged right away. If money isn't an object then that is good because you will spend alot of it to build a good motor. Your fuel system will need upgrading also and a stand alone fuel management would be a nice addition but may not be needed. Good Luck and if you have any other questions just ask. Ignore the jerks since they are the ones that are clueless anyways.
Registered User
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 99
Likes: 0
From: NJ
The easiest to do is to wait for a turbo KIT. Since it will provide everthying needed. However, if you can't wait, here's the basic list of parts you'll need, and loads of money of course 
.
turbo manifold, cast would better, but pipe-style is ok too turbocharger
piping for turbocharger and intercooler and throttle
front mount intercooler
engine management, either stand alone $2500+) or piggyback
boost controller, turbo timer, various gauges for EGT, temp...etc
fuel upgarde - bigger fuel injectors, pump
that's what you need for a "kit"
if you want big HP, 500HP+, engine work is needed, since the VQ is a relatively new engine, I don't think the Japanese manufacturers have come out with anything yet, but you can always get them custom made, more money of course...
lower compression - new pistons and rods, knife-edge crank, port and polish head, stronger valves, retainers, and springs, new camshafts, and cam gears, blueprint entire block, maybe a head gasket for even lower compression, five angle valve job
to handle the power, new clutch, flywheel, maybe driveshafts
all together, at least $25,000, hope this helps, and if I missed anything, poeple feel free to contribute
BTW, half the poeple on this board don't even drive Zs, so just ignore the 16 year olds driving their mom's civics
. turbo manifold, cast would better, but pipe-style is ok too turbocharger
piping for turbocharger and intercooler and throttle
front mount intercooler
engine management, either stand alone $2500+) or piggyback
boost controller, turbo timer, various gauges for EGT, temp...etc
fuel upgarde - bigger fuel injectors, pump
that's what you need for a "kit"
if you want big HP, 500HP+, engine work is needed, since the VQ is a relatively new engine, I don't think the Japanese manufacturers have come out with anything yet, but you can always get them custom made, more money of course...
lower compression - new pistons and rods, knife-edge crank, port and polish head, stronger valves, retainers, and springs, new camshafts, and cam gears, blueprint entire block, maybe a head gasket for even lower compression, five angle valve job
to handle the power, new clutch, flywheel, maybe driveshafts
all together, at least $25,000, hope this helps, and if I missed anything, poeple feel free to contribute
BTW, half the poeple on this board don't even drive Zs, so just ignore the 16 year olds driving their mom's civics
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I would say....wait for the kits.
more than likely there will be two options on kits.
1) roughly 385-450hp that won't include an intercooler and run stock compression.
or
2) 450+hp that will include an intercooler , required piping, and a thicker aftermarket head gasket to lower compression....allowing you to run more boost.
this all assumes that the VQ internals are forged and strong enough to handle the power....IMO, I think we will see issues with the open deck design before we see issues with the internals.....
keep in mind that these are just estimates and examples of the configuration options I expect to see. We should have the moderate gain kits....for daily driven street ppl and then the monster gain kits for ***** out track guys.
the beauty of monster turbo cars is, when done right, you can daily drive 500+hp cars on the street. I'm not a Toyota fan by a long shot......but the Supra was a beautiful thing if you disregard the exterior styling. Not to mention all the 500+hp 300zx running around now......
I hoping to go supercharger this time around....never had one. I just know I'll miss the feel of the turbo....and the blow off valves.
more than likely there will be two options on kits.
1) roughly 385-450hp that won't include an intercooler and run stock compression.
or
2) 450+hp that will include an intercooler , required piping, and a thicker aftermarket head gasket to lower compression....allowing you to run more boost.
this all assumes that the VQ internals are forged and strong enough to handle the power....IMO, I think we will see issues with the open deck design before we see issues with the internals.....
keep in mind that these are just estimates and examples of the configuration options I expect to see. We should have the moderate gain kits....for daily driven street ppl and then the monster gain kits for ***** out track guys.
the beauty of monster turbo cars is, when done right, you can daily drive 500+hp cars on the street. I'm not a Toyota fan by a long shot......but the Supra was a beautiful thing if you disregard the exterior styling. Not to mention all the 500+hp 300zx running around now......
I hoping to go supercharger this time around....never had one. I just know I'll miss the feel of the turbo....and the blow off valves.
once you have the kit, that will provide you with the hardware, and turbos. then if you so choose, you could skip their intercooler and get an even larger one(Im unfamiliar with the size they are using, so theirs might be way big enough) after that you could swap the actual turbos out, have some porting done to wastegates and what not to support extra boost.
then comes internal mods, the compression on the Z is high, by boosting it you will raise it and their is not enough octane in our gas to support much higher. (youll start to get knocking from detination) japan offers high octane gas, one reason why the RSX-R isnt here yet.
to combat this you get lower compression pistons, Im not possitive how they work, I believe they are concave or something, not sure. other wise you need springs, rods, valves, piston sleeves perhaps, and maybe a stronger crank.
of course the biggest thing you can do to combat problems is proper tuning. and that isnt cheap. a good boost controller can help, but mostly just some quality time with it to make it run right.
eventually the weakest link will become the block, its an open head aluminum block, hardly the picture of strength. around 700hp this wont hold any more. youd then be looking at having a block made from something stronger, this is the line that you cross IMO. I intend to take the car as far as the stock block will let me.
hope this helps, others can correct me, or add on. all in all, it should be a fun trip.
then comes internal mods, the compression on the Z is high, by boosting it you will raise it and their is not enough octane in our gas to support much higher. (youll start to get knocking from detination) japan offers high octane gas, one reason why the RSX-R isnt here yet.
to combat this you get lower compression pistons, Im not possitive how they work, I believe they are concave or something, not sure. other wise you need springs, rods, valves, piston sleeves perhaps, and maybe a stronger crank.
of course the biggest thing you can do to combat problems is proper tuning. and that isnt cheap. a good boost controller can help, but mostly just some quality time with it to make it run right.
eventually the weakest link will become the block, its an open head aluminum block, hardly the picture of strength. around 700hp this wont hold any more. youd then be looking at having a block made from something stronger, this is the line that you cross IMO. I intend to take the car as far as the stock block will let me.
hope this helps, others can correct me, or add on. all in all, it should be a fun trip.
Registered User
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 99
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From: NJ
Originally posted by ares
eventually the weakest link will become the block, its an open head aluminum block, hardly the picture of strength.
eventually the weakest link will become the block, its an open head aluminum block, hardly the picture of strength.
Guest
Posts: n/a
You'll want 2 turbo's, one larger for your top end, one smaller to reduce lag. Depending on your horsepower choice, you have many to choose from.
Lets start with manifolds. You'll have to get someone to make 2 custom manifolds, enough said.
You'll want a Tial 40mm wastegate, and a good Greddy or HKS re-circulating bypass valve. (ricer term: blow off valve) - used to describe the venting of the excess pressure to the atmosphere, which can sporatically cause a rich condition on an otherwise stock vehicle, or a vehicle without some sort of compensation for it.
You'll need larger injectors, probably, again, depending on your horsepower needs, and again, depending on the size of the factory injectors. I'm assuming you're going to want more than what they can provide.
You said you didn't want to cut corners, so go with an Aeromotive Tec III stand alone engine management system. You'll be fully operative on every variable, be able to control fuel maps, timing, bar fuel pressure, and etc etc etc.
You'll need a nice, BIG HKS core front mount intercooler, with 3 inch ducting. Also, big 3" ID downpipes and a 3" exhaust.
To help the turbo spool, you'll want to invest in some light internals, ie: rods and pistons, which will also provide better security in case of detonation.
Also, a good set of underdriven/lightweight pulleys can help spool.
For high hp applications, you might think about having sleeves made for the block. I'm sure JWT (Jim Wolf Technology, the best Nissan performance company) will work with you on that.
If you're truly ****, I'd go with headwork: street port and polish will a 5 angle valve job. This should net AWESOME gains with forced induction.
There are so many other things I could name off all day, but until I know more from your part, I'll leave it at that.
Lets start with manifolds. You'll have to get someone to make 2 custom manifolds, enough said.
You'll want a Tial 40mm wastegate, and a good Greddy or HKS re-circulating bypass valve. (ricer term: blow off valve) - used to describe the venting of the excess pressure to the atmosphere, which can sporatically cause a rich condition on an otherwise stock vehicle, or a vehicle without some sort of compensation for it.
You'll need larger injectors, probably, again, depending on your horsepower needs, and again, depending on the size of the factory injectors. I'm assuming you're going to want more than what they can provide.
You said you didn't want to cut corners, so go with an Aeromotive Tec III stand alone engine management system. You'll be fully operative on every variable, be able to control fuel maps, timing, bar fuel pressure, and etc etc etc.
You'll need a nice, BIG HKS core front mount intercooler, with 3 inch ducting. Also, big 3" ID downpipes and a 3" exhaust.
To help the turbo spool, you'll want to invest in some light internals, ie: rods and pistons, which will also provide better security in case of detonation.
Also, a good set of underdriven/lightweight pulleys can help spool.
For high hp applications, you might think about having sleeves made for the block. I'm sure JWT (Jim Wolf Technology, the best Nissan performance company) will work with you on that.
If you're truly ****, I'd go with headwork: street port and polish will a 5 angle valve job. This should net AWESOME gains with forced induction.
There are so many other things I could name off all day, but until I know more from your part, I'll leave it at that.
Registered User
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 456
Likes: 0
From: Raleigh, NC
I started reading this thread and got angry (although I now see that some of us have already started to help Jergens out).
However, please consider this before jumping all over someone:
Any time someone from another Marquee (especial one as good as BMW) comes over to the Nissan Marquee, it is good for Nissan and good for us. So please, some of you need to lighten up.
Nissan is a business after all and it cannot survive on repeat business alone. It’s also obvious that Nissan doesn't want the 350z to become some exclusive vehicle driven only by die-hard enthusiasts. Increased market share is what it’s all about these days. And believe it or not, the things you say in this forum have probably just as much, if not more, effect on future sales than all the billboards in the world.
So please be a little respectful of others.
Rant over.
Fly
However, please consider this before jumping all over someone:
Any time someone from another Marquee (especial one as good as BMW) comes over to the Nissan Marquee, it is good for Nissan and good for us. So please, some of you need to lighten up.
Nissan is a business after all and it cannot survive on repeat business alone. It’s also obvious that Nissan doesn't want the 350z to become some exclusive vehicle driven only by die-hard enthusiasts. Increased market share is what it’s all about these days. And believe it or not, the things you say in this forum have probably just as much, if not more, effect on future sales than all the billboards in the world.
So please be a little respectful of others.
Rant over.
Fly
Originally posted by n3985
lower compression - new pistons and rods, knife-edge crank, port and polish head, stronger valves, retainers, and springs, new camshafts, and cam gears, blueprint entire block, maybe a head gasket for even lower compression, five angle valve job
lower compression - new pistons and rods, knife-edge crank, port and polish head, stronger valves, retainers, and springs, new camshafts, and cam gears, blueprint entire block, maybe a head gasket for even lower compression, five angle valve job
u dont need a new head gasket to lower compression if you're putting in new pistons...just choose the right compression pistons.
Registered User
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 175
Likes: 0
From: copperas cove texas
yeah welcome to my350z.com (i never got one, come to think of it
)
if your wanting to go all out, its gonna cost you. i dont know about 25 big ones though!
internals are going to cost you an arm and a leg so be prepared!
call up greddy and tell them what you want to do (flat out speed, or barely noticeable lag) and they will actually set you up with a properly sized turbo for your app. hopefully they have the knowledge with the setup, it was a breeze since my motors been out for 19 years!
your going to need larger injectors to supply more fuel for the added air. i recommend rc engineering as they will actually clean, balance and blueprint your injectors for free for life!!(1000 bucks)
get a fuel pressure regulator (150 dollars)
larger fuel pump (300 dollars)
everything else you can do yourself, do a search on prices for aeroquip hoses (got a complete set of lines all done in stainless steel, and some teflon coated for 500 bucks) these will supply your turbo(s) with the oil, and water. maybe get some extra lines to supply a new fuel rail (200 bucks) for the injectors.
ignore the prices that they give for "kits" most of the money is being spent on the custom piping and a nice shiny intercooler, you can get piping done at any reputable race shop or if your lucky an exhaust specialist for 600 bucks tops.
whats left is the intercooler, take a measurement of the space you have available where it will be mounted.
head out to the afformentioned race shop to see if they have an intercooler that matches your numbers. you can also get custom welded end tanks to custom tailer the piping to the throtle body, and to the compressor housing of the turbo. i purchased a stock nissan silvia intercooler from a shop in austin for about 500 bucks, and let me tell you that thing is great!! on a hot day you can feel a LARGE difference on each end tank! i live in texas so thats telling you alot!
hmmm cant think right now if i left anything out ill think of it later, i gotta jet
franklinz
) if your wanting to go all out, its gonna cost you. i dont know about 25 big ones though!
internals are going to cost you an arm and a leg so be prepared!
call up greddy and tell them what you want to do (flat out speed, or barely noticeable lag) and they will actually set you up with a properly sized turbo for your app. hopefully they have the knowledge with the setup, it was a breeze since my motors been out for 19 years!
your going to need larger injectors to supply more fuel for the added air. i recommend rc engineering as they will actually clean, balance and blueprint your injectors for free for life!!(1000 bucks)
get a fuel pressure regulator (150 dollars)
larger fuel pump (300 dollars)
everything else you can do yourself, do a search on prices for aeroquip hoses (got a complete set of lines all done in stainless steel, and some teflon coated for 500 bucks) these will supply your turbo(s) with the oil, and water. maybe get some extra lines to supply a new fuel rail (200 bucks) for the injectors.
ignore the prices that they give for "kits" most of the money is being spent on the custom piping and a nice shiny intercooler, you can get piping done at any reputable race shop or if your lucky an exhaust specialist for 600 bucks tops.
whats left is the intercooler, take a measurement of the space you have available where it will be mounted.
head out to the afformentioned race shop to see if they have an intercooler that matches your numbers. you can also get custom welded end tanks to custom tailer the piping to the throtle body, and to the compressor housing of the turbo. i purchased a stock nissan silvia intercooler from a shop in austin for about 500 bucks, and let me tell you that thing is great!! on a hot day you can feel a LARGE difference on each end tank! i live in texas so thats telling you alot!
hmmm cant think right now if i left anything out ill think of it later, i gotta jet
franklinz
Wow guys thanks for the info. I'm going to look a few things up and like some of you said, I need to offer more info on what I am looking for. Once I figure out some of the functions of aforementioned setups, I'll let you know in less lame terms what I'm looking into. Lemme do a little research and I'll be posting some more detailed descriptions of what I am looking for in the next day or two. Thanks for all the info
Registered User
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 175
Likes: 0
From: copperas cove texas
also shoot this guy an email scottie@scottiegnz.com hes a mod. at hybridz so he can definitely help. and i belive he lives in orlando, so he might be able to make some trips or vice versa.
franklinz
p.s. keep us posted
franklinz
p.s. keep us posted
