phile

yeah it's a puzzling car... and it's pissing me off!

Kraigman

Phile: your question regarding standing verses moving airflow caught my eye. I wonder how much of an impact this would have on testing and ultimately performance. Is it possible that because the car is not moving the air being pulled into the filter is the ambient heated air of the engine compartment rather than the 'clean' air in front of the bumper? Is the significant temperature difference in moving verses standing air a factor? Hmmmm...

J Ritt

iTrader: (4)

Definintely interesting results.
1. As others have said, I would like to see run results for the car with both intake and exhaust after 2-3 weeks, to see if the ECU dialed back the gains. This seems to be an issue with the car.
2. Also, the first set of graphs/text don't seem to make sense with regards to max vs. max, avg. vs. avg., etc. All runs should compare max stock # to max gain #, avg. stock # to avg. gain #, etc, and total gain calculations made on each of those. I think you guys know that, and its just a typo.
3. Since the car is very temp. dependent, maybe another test day should be set up for recorded results in a few weeks. I think that would clear up a lot of questions, and would also address the ECU adj. issue. Your overall procedure with the fan/letting the car idle, etc. look good though, and as a controlled environment as we can hope for on a single test day.
4. If I were to buy these products, test them, and not see the gains you claim, would you stand behind your product and refund my money? Now, I'm not saying I would expect to see the same results on an absolute # basis, but I think if you were to assure consumers that they will see at a minimum X gains on a completely stock car, then you'll make a lot more sales (and friends). I just worry about all of the BS claims out there. If I knew a company REALLY stood behind their product and made sure that it performed as advertised, I wouldn't hesitate to purchase.
6. Feedback on the exhaust itself: I like the full stainless. I do not like the angled pea shooter look. I prefer something more subtle/stock looking. I'm assuming the look is a function of the design...looks like you were shooting for the most straight route for the exhaust possible. How is ground clearance affected? It looks like it will be diminished somewhat? What is the exact # in mm that clearance will diminish? How much clearance is there relative to the antisway bar on both pipes? Has the car thrown any codes with the new hardware? If so, what? Is the car still undergoing road testing? I really think it sounds good, but as someone else mentioned, will it drone on the highway? I saw the small holes near the end of the tips...will insertable silencers be included? Will the exhaust be reasonably priced, or is it another $1000 system (which would ONLY seem reasonable to me if my car actually put down an extra 20hp to the wheels, and weighed less than or the same as stock)?

There are a LOT of questions that need to be answered. Injen is definitely off to a good start, but you're not finished yet. I would tread carefully, and look to gather more data. As I posted in response to one of the Stillen reps that came on the board, people will find out if the wool is being pulled over their eyes. The truth about the gains, etc. will come out very quickly in real world testing by individuals on this and other boards. If 3rd party testing disproves your claims, you will be crushed by word of mouth, etc. on the internet. That's the reality of today's market. The internet will make you ton of money, or run you out of business. I strongly believe it's in Injen's best interest to be completely honest and to keep gathering data. In Stillen's case, they have been tight lipped about everything, and to be honest, I would be very reluctant to buy anything from a company like that (the fact that i've heard tons of negative word of mouth doesn't help them much either). A number of people have bought Stillen's product, but the overall feel towards them is one of distrust it seems. As I said, Injen is off to a good start with full disclosure on their products. I think it's too early to say definitively however, that these are the gains that people will consistently see on their own cars. I realize that you would never be able to make that claim, but keep in mind that advertising a conservative money back guaranteed 12-15 rear wheel hp will get you a lot further than a probable or possible 22 rwhp gain. If people buy these products and don't realize the gains, they will smear your name every place they can. If there is nothing to hide, then you should be able to answer every question in my post with confidence.

Good luck, thanks for the info, and keep us posted with details. I am intrigued for sure, and will be watching.

Kraigman

This may seem like a dumb question but...

having never dynoed my car, is a fan typically placed in front of the car being tested?

J Ritt

iTrader: (4)

two more things:
1. A decibel reading at cruise in 6th gear, under full throttle (peak), inside the car with windows closed and open, and outside of the car.
2. pictures of the exhaust from various angles around the back of the car.

Am I ****...maybe, but I prefer to think of myself as an educated consumer. Thanks!

rtakashima

There are a lot of people that may not believe the results. We knew this would happen. We have all heard of the saying your damned if you do and your damned if you don't. Not to sound defensive in any way, but we did invite everybody to come down to be a witness. When we had little response, we thought it would be a good idea to have reputable individuals present. Yes, the 350z is tempermental. We feel it was sporatic as the RSX Type S when it comes to heat. However, we do include the exhaust manifold cover with the intake while others don't. We could debate about this topic all day. My suggestion is, if you like what you see, buy it. If you are afraid the results are unbelievable, conduct your own testing. We just offered data on our Dynojet with the media present. If that is not good enough, what can I say? I think what matters is that we did take the time and provide information that could be useful to the 350z community. Most were very pleased. We know we can't please everybody and we respect that.

Written on a post earlier today:

I am happy to hear the positive feedback. We are proud that we can provide you the data that we delivered. It is our job to give the end consumer true results. Our moto has always been "We're leading the way." If all manufactures can deliver coparable data, the consumer benefits the most.

To answer a few questions:

1. The exhausts is full, polished, stainless steel. This includes the inside of the can, the hangers, and the flanges. Most stainless system mufflers are aluminum inside and eventually rust. We spared no expense.

2. We have sent our prototypes to Japan and have heard rave reviews. People have said that no Japanese system or US system even comes close to the new Super SES by Injen. Many hours went into this project to ensure peak power.

3. The MSRP is $975.00 for this dual exhaust, part number SES1985RS. We do not sell to the public so the retail to the end consumer will usually vary. See our dealer list.

4. The exhaust should be ready in April. We are releasing 8 other exhaust systems at the same time. The jigs are finished and production has begun.

5. Not shown in the photo are the Super SES bumper decal and the 2 bronze colored silencers that this exhaust comes with at no extra charge. Can you order the silencer in a different color? No, this wll be the Super SES trademark.

6. Does the exhaust come with a Y pipe? We tried the Y pipe and are still doing R&D but have found the Y pipe is making minimal power. We don't want to offer an exhaust that makes little to no power. A Y pipe exhaust would be a little cheaper but again, there is a power issue.

So, I believe I have addressed all of the questions except for weight. To be honest, I have not weighed the exhaust but we will get you a weight asap. Thanks again for the support.

Regards,

Ryan Takashima

Kraigman

Thanks Ryan.

Another way to look at things: lots of attention is better than none at all?

McDan

Thanks for the detailed dyno procedure. I'm at least much less skeptical about the posted gains than I was before I read the write-up. I was always skeptical that Injen was using the better results following engine cool down to post their gains. for example, my first stock dyno was 229, followed by 235 after letting the engine cool down. If I saw some results a week later showing the computer had not adjusted down the power, I would seriously consider buying.

Dan

J Ritt

iTrader: (4)

Thanks for the response Ryan. I agree that you did extend the offer to come view the testing firsthand. Unfortunately, I live a couple thousand miles away. At any rate, it was a smart move to make the offer, and have media present. Can we expect articles in their publications some time soon? Nobody can fault you for not being up front about the tests.

I also believe that your documentation and data from the testing far exceeds what we've seen from other suppliers, and I'm not looking for a debate or calling BS on your claims. It seems that you are very confident in your product, which is encouraging. I guess I'm just a little greedy, and I like as much info as possible before I spend $1k on anything, let alone an exhaust. At this point, I just don't have quite enough data points or info to pull the trigger. I'm sure others do though. I guess I'll just have to wait to hear more details from some of the early adopters. If I knew the weight (which you said you will provide shortly), I would be very close to making the purchase.

As I said before, good job overall. It sounds like you are confident that these results are repeatable and accurate. I like a company that stands behind their product. I usually put a post like this up for manufacturers to see how they react. Some panic, some get defensive, etc. You just seemed to stand your ground. I like that. Hopefully results from others will verify your findings. Those are nice power results, and its a nice looking/sounding piece. Actually, it's the best sounding exhaust for the Z I've heard thus far...almost reminds me of one of the old inline six Skylines that they test on Best Motoring International Vol.5. It has a nice deep rumble to it, and a nice howl as the revs climb...it doesn't have that blat, blat 'fart can' sound to it. While watching that video, I said to myself, 'that's what I want my car to soudn like." It looks like I'm possibly one step closer. Good stuff, and keep us up to date with any additional details.

J Ritt

iTrader: (4)

Kraigman,
It is normal to have a fan blowing on the front of the car during a dyno run...since the car is stationary, the fan simulates air flow that you would have while driving.

I think the ECU adjustment is key here. If it doesnt' pull power later down the line, then this could be very nice.

Kraigman

Thanks J. Would make sense. Now if I could only find one near where I live...

J Ritt

iTrader: (4)

do a search for dynojet on this board...someone posted a link that has locations...most likely, one is near you.

phile

THANKS FOR NOTICING! Not many people noticed my response! Someone here siad it was a normal procudure in order to simulate airflow. I agree it SHOULD be a normal procedure, however I have heard NO mention of anyone doing this on a dyno! Is that maybe why no one was getting any gains with the CIA? Because they were dynoing with ambient air temperatures, and not simulating airflow? CMON PEOPLE, RESPOND! Anyone who dynoed their car, did they simulate wind??????/

Attention Ryan One question that you didn't asnwer...we just want to know if the gains will stay ! Can you comment?

SKiDaZZLe

i can pretty much bet that car wont make that much HP a week or two later. this is due to the ecu adjustment...

i have done the same controlled test before and after the intake... gained 0HP and .2TQ, over a K&N...

this is on a dynojet with a industrial fan blowing onto the front of the car, with the hood open... 3 runs, 3 minutes apart.

IMHO its not worth buying, unless you have a fly engine bay and dont like stock black platic parts!!!

m

Static

I have dyno'd my old car with a fan in front every time. REason for this I think is that it definitely help to recreate a REAL WORLD result.. because your car is in effect always moving forward therefore pushing air into the intake system.. and not just sucking up still air..

phile

here's what phillip@injen posted on the other 350z board in reply to my ECU question:

My point was, if you dyno the car a week later and the results are gone, WHY HAVE THE MOD IN THE FIRST PLACE?

troutfishin02

How about some 0-60 and 1/4 mile times for the car? I know, I know - that's a lot more subjective than a dyno, but let's see what that claimed (no offense) extra hp at the wheels does when they're not spinning on a machine.
My .02.

12SecZ

Bravo!

People like to live and die by dyno numbers. What you just said I have been trying to say here for months!

If a mod takes off 2 tenths it's a good mod! People have paid hundreds for that extra tenth and never even been to a Dyno!

MannishBoy

iTrader: (1)

Heh, and people wonder why Stillen wouldn't post a dyno here

Not saying it isn't a good discussion or even one that shouldn't be had, but you have to see why it is so hard to get dynos from people. Damned if they do, damned if they don't.

Wags

Yeah, I've had the same feeling from the start. But they did a nice job, invited owner's, and the magazine coverage for winesses also... But we still have all the evidence of people who don't seem to get the gains, or maybe any at all. It doesn't suprize me that an intake or muffler need a change to the ECU mapping but there should be at least some gain but a new map to reap the full benefit. And in my opinion the intake and muffler is where to start, it just may not be the end.