Best Short Block build for the $$$?
10-21-2006, 09:17 AM
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Best Short Block build for the $$$?
just wondering what the best way to go for building the short block without sleeving... only rods pistons etc... Plan on going turbonetics single, just want a motor to handle more power if needed.... Thanks!!! Any options or shops that are acclaimed?
10-21-2006, 11:11 AM
#2
It's a good approach to build a motor.
Here is my combo.....
Arias Extreme Duty pistons 9.0:1 compression.
Eagle H-Beam rods
HKS head gaskets
ARP main studs
ARP L-19 head studs
GT Motorsports built block (I wouldn't have anyone else build the motor)
I made 450whp on this combo with stock cams and heads. The motor can reliably handle much much more power.
JET
Here is my combo.....
Arias Extreme Duty pistons 9.0:1 compression.
Eagle H-Beam rods
HKS head gaskets
ARP main studs
ARP L-19 head studs
GT Motorsports built block (I wouldn't have anyone else build the motor)
I made 450whp on this combo with stock cams and heads. The motor can reliably handle much much more power.
JET
10-21-2006, 07:26 PM
#6
Originally Posted by redline350ZZ
Did you just buy a shortblock and reuse your stock heads?
I plan on being back in Georgia soon and gonna have Forged tune me
I plan on being back in Georgia soon and gonna have Forged tune me
Why would it be a big mistake to build a short block without sleaving it?
JET
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10-22-2006, 09:08 AM
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a sleeved block is by no means essential and in some cases, is not even desirable
All depends on what you're plans are for the car and what you're budget is for the build
All depends on what you're plans are for the car and what you're budget is for the build
10-23-2006, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by JETPILOT
I bought a shortblock to send in to GT Motorsports to avoid a core charge and reused my stock heads. Have Sharif take care of everything for you. He uses GT Motorsports to build his motors. The best.
Why would it be a big mistake to build a short block without sleaving it?
JET
Why would it be a big mistake to build a short block without sleaving it?
JET
10-23-2006, 10:35 AM
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My personal opinion, granted that it would seem that you plan to be on the conservative side with FI.
The point here is that you already have it in your plans to rebuild your block, if it is not that much more expensive to re-sleeve; I would spend that extra bit to have peace of mind, flexibility and added options.
Re-sleeving does add more contact area for gasket and clamping seal. And, should you wish to increase to a TT and more boost, you have it all set up. And, if I had the option of choosing a rebuilt motor - 350Z, re-sleeved and with stock, I would pick the resleeved rebuilt motor over the non-re-sleeved any day.
Some may say that re-sleeving is not necessary for an FI VQ, but I have personally seen a number of my friends cracking the sleeves. Maybe they were just unfortunate, who knows, not much is known about the VQ35DE, as yet, since I bought mine in spring 2003. There is still lots of R & D needed.
G
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The point here is that you already have it in your plans to rebuild your block, if it is not that much more expensive to re-sleeve; I would spend that extra bit to have peace of mind, flexibility and added options.
Re-sleeving does add more contact area for gasket and clamping seal. And, should you wish to increase to a TT and more boost, you have it all set up. And, if I had the option of choosing a rebuilt motor - 350Z, re-sleeved and with stock, I would pick the resleeved rebuilt motor over the non-re-sleeved any day.
Some may say that re-sleeving is not necessary for an FI VQ, but I have personally seen a number of my friends cracking the sleeves. Maybe they were just unfortunate, who knows, not much is known about the VQ35DE, as yet, since I bought mine in spring 2003. There is still lots of R & D needed.
G
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10-23-2006, 10:42 AM
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Originally Posted by 350Zzzz
My personal opinion, granted that it would seem that you plan to be on the conservative side with FI.
The point here is that you already have it in your plans to rebuild your block, if it is not that much more expensive to re-sleeve; I would spend that extra bit to have peace of mind, flexibility and added options.
Re-sleeving does add more contact area for gasket and clamping seal. And, should you wish to increase to a TT and more boost, you have it all set up. And, if I had the option of choosing a rebuilt motor - 350Z, re-sleeved and with stock, I would pick the resleeved rebuilt motor over the non-re-sleeved any day.
Some may say that re-sleeving is not necessary for an FI VQ, but I have personally seen a number of my friends cracking the sleeves. Maybe they were just unfortunate, who knows, not much is known about the VQ35DE, as yet, since I bought mine in spring 2003. There is still lots of R & D needed.
G
__________
The point here is that you already have it in your plans to rebuild your block, if it is not that much more expensive to re-sleeve; I would spend that extra bit to have peace of mind, flexibility and added options.
Re-sleeving does add more contact area for gasket and clamping seal. And, should you wish to increase to a TT and more boost, you have it all set up. And, if I had the option of choosing a rebuilt motor - 350Z, re-sleeved and with stock, I would pick the resleeved rebuilt motor over the non-re-sleeved any day.
Some may say that re-sleeving is not necessary for an FI VQ, but I have personally seen a number of my friends cracking the sleeves. Maybe they were just unfortunate, who knows, not much is known about the VQ35DE, as yet, since I bought mine in spring 2003. There is still lots of R & D needed.
G
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10-23-2006, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by thawk408
At what power levels did the sleeves crack?
I blew my head gasket 4 times, and I was dynoed on the mustang @ 402 rwhp; and maybe I was lucky that my gasket broke down first.
G
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10-23-2006, 08:54 PM
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Originally Posted by 350Zzzz
That is hard to tell at what point the sleeves gave way; but these cars were dynoed between 380 rwhp & 420 rwhp; but then again the dyno machines were different and weather conditions were different during the tuning (during dyno) and tracking.
I blew my head gasket 4 times, and I was dynoed on the mustang @ 402 rwhp; and maybe I was lucky that my gasket broke down first.
G
I blew my head gasket 4 times, and I was dynoed on the mustang @ 402 rwhp; and maybe I was lucky that my gasket broke down first.
G
380-420rwhp? I've been following the sleeve/no-sleeve debate for months now, and this is the first I've heard of anyone cracking stock sleeves at power levels that low. Sharif@Forged had put in several comments on this topic in the Forced Induction sub-forum here, and was under the impression that stock sleeves were good up to at least 600rwhp. I'm not swingin' on his nutz, but he's built a number of sleeved an non-sleeved setups, and wasn't convinced that it was required for power levels in the 500's and below.
Before anyone gets rant happy - I'm not saying that sleeves aren't a good idea, but there's a common belief that they're an absolute when pushing into the 400 and 500 rwhp marks. The big concern to me is headlift - which a lot of guys had problems with a few years back. But now we have L19 headstuds, 1/2" headstuds, and HKS head gaskets (which seal better than the cometic units).
I'm on the edge and would definitely consider sleeving if going past 600rwhp, but I'm not in the opinion that power levels less than that require the added "insurance." Seems like overkill...
As always - just my
10-24-2006, 06:17 AM
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Originally Posted by S1AMEZE
???
380-420rwhp? I've been following the sleeve/no-sleeve debate for months now, and this is the first I've heard of anyone cracking stock sleeves at power levels that low. Sharif@Forged had put in several comments on this topic in the Forced Induction sub-forum here, and was under the impression that stock sleeves were good up to at least 600rwhp. I'm not swingin' on his nutz, but he's built a number of sleeved an non-sleeved setups, and wasn't convinced that it was required for power levels in the 500's and below.
Before anyone gets rant happy - I'm not saying that sleeves aren't a good idea, but there's a common belief that they're an absolute when pushing into the 400 and 500 rwhp marks. The big concern to me is headlift - which a lot of guys had problems with a few years back. But now we have L19 headstuds, 1/2" headstuds, and HKS head gaskets (which seal better than the cometic units).
I'm on the edge and would definitely consider sleeving if going past 600rwhp, but I'm not in the opinion that power levels less than that require the added "insurance." Seems like overkill...
As always - just my
380-420rwhp? I've been following the sleeve/no-sleeve debate for months now, and this is the first I've heard of anyone cracking stock sleeves at power levels that low. Sharif@Forged had put in several comments on this topic in the Forced Induction sub-forum here, and was under the impression that stock sleeves were good up to at least 600rwhp. I'm not swingin' on his nutz, but he's built a number of sleeved an non-sleeved setups, and wasn't convinced that it was required for power levels in the 500's and below.
Before anyone gets rant happy - I'm not saying that sleeves aren't a good idea, but there's a common belief that they're an absolute when pushing into the 400 and 500 rwhp marks. The big concern to me is headlift - which a lot of guys had problems with a few years back. But now we have L19 headstuds, 1/2" headstuds, and HKS head gaskets (which seal better than the cometic units).
I'm on the edge and would definitely consider sleeving if going past 600rwhp, but I'm not in the opinion that power levels less than that require the added "insurance." Seems like overkill...
As always - just my
Originally Posted by boosted500hp
just wondering what the best way to go for building the short block without sleeving... only rods pistons etc... Plan on going turbonetics single, just want a motor to handle more power if needed.... Thanks!!! Any options or shops that are acclaimed?
To me the internal combustion engine is like a chain, for reliable & durable performance one has just to locate the weak links and strengthen them. However, like a chain, when you strengthen a weak link you are in fact creating another weak link.
As good as Sharif@ forged may be, I would be surprised if he gave you a guarantee that your VQ with 380rwhp to 420 rwhp would never ever experience engine detonation/abnormal combustion and/or pre-ignition, etc. In the performance racing arena, it is also called the silent killer for internal combustion engines.
I suppose that you have not heard of people blowing windows with engines dynoed at 380/400 rwhp either, have you?
G
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10-24-2006, 07:05 AM
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fact is no one can give any guarantee on any motor, as it only will last for as good as the tune is - a crappy tune can ruin even the best, most well engineered motor.
The bottom line, in my eyes at least, is some customers, in their quest for power, HAVE to sleeve. Many others, depending on their uses and goals, do not have to. Sleeving is neither easy nor inexpensive, even in the grand scheme of building a motor. Those shooting for the upper echelons of power would be well served to sleeve. For those aiming for more modest power goals, in and around the mid 500 level, I think can easily deal with the stockers.
If you look at the original posters questions, he is aiming for a single Turbonetics. Given the power that kit can put out, even with a fully built bottom end, I think stock sleeves would be fine, and will also cut down on costs.
The bottom line, in my eyes at least, is some customers, in their quest for power, HAVE to sleeve. Many others, depending on their uses and goals, do not have to. Sleeving is neither easy nor inexpensive, even in the grand scheme of building a motor. Those shooting for the upper echelons of power would be well served to sleeve. For those aiming for more modest power goals, in and around the mid 500 level, I think can easily deal with the stockers.
If you look at the original posters questions, he is aiming for a single Turbonetics. Given the power that kit can put out, even with a fully built bottom end, I think stock sleeves would be fine, and will also cut down on costs.
10-24-2006, 08:26 AM
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Adam, that is fine, if that's what he wants to do, based on what he can afford. I was giving my opinion, of what I would do if I was getting my block worked on. If for some reason, I want to have it done at a later date, it would be much, much more expensive than having it done all at the same time.
And, I did say if he could afford it.
It has nothing to do with whether one must or not sleeve at 400 rwhp.
That is only one cause for engine detonation/abnormal combustion or pre ignition; there are other factors that's way beyond any tuner's control. Bad gas for one; which was a major contributory factor when my heads lifted the 4th time.
It could have been worst if the heads did not lift. So if there are those who believe that sleeves are absolutely not a possible issue till 600 rwhp and over, that's your opinion. Go for it.
I realize that people try to cut corners, to keep the cost low, but that the builder's choice
G
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And, I did say if he could afford it.
It has nothing to do with whether one must or not sleeve at 400 rwhp.
fact is no one can give any guarantee on any motor, as it only will last for as good as the tune is - a crappy tune can ruin even the best, most well engineered motor.
It could have been worst if the heads did not lift. So if there are those who believe that sleeves are absolutely not a possible issue till 600 rwhp and over, that's your opinion. Go for it.
I realize that people try to cut corners, to keep the cost low, but that the builder's choice
G
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Last edited by 350Zzzz; 10-24-2006 at 08:29 AM.
10-24-2006, 02:19 PM
#18
Headlift is a non-issue at this time, IMHO. With L19 drop in studs, or oversized studs trqed to 90-95ft/lbs, the headlift issue is dead and over with. 
Headlift was caused by indequate clamping force...plain and simple. I just tuned an APS TT with stock sleeves, upgraded studs, and a forged bottom end at 535whp on our dyno (10-13% higher on the dynojet), and no a trace of coolant consumption, overheating, or headlifting.
In regards to sleeves, I usually tell people, that for a 600whp or up build, sleeve the block....otherwise, the stock sleeves are fine. When people speak of chipped sleeves, they are always a result of a cracked ring land, or some other debris floating around in the engine. Sleeves do not chip on their own. And with severe detonation, you are MUCH more likely to crack a thin aluminum ring land, vs. a cast iron cylinder liner.
You can find our engine packages here: http://www.forgedperformance.com/store/home.php?cat=264
Headlift was caused by indequate clamping force...plain and simple. I just tuned an APS TT with stock sleeves, upgraded studs, and a forged bottom end at 535whp on our dyno (10-13% higher on the dynojet), and no a trace of coolant consumption, overheating, or headlifting. In regards to sleeves, I usually tell people, that for a 600whp or up build, sleeve the block....otherwise, the stock sleeves are fine. When people speak of chipped sleeves, they are always a result of a cracked ring land, or some other debris floating around in the engine. Sleeves do not chip on their own. And with severe detonation, you are MUCH more likely to crack a thin aluminum ring land, vs. a cast iron cylinder liner.
You can find our engine packages here: http://www.forgedperformance.com/store/home.php?cat=264
10-24-2006, 04:30 PM
#19
Originally Posted by JETPILOT
It's a good approach to build a motor.
Here is my combo.....
Arias Extreme Duty pistons 9.0:1 compression.
Eagle H-Beam rods
HKS head gaskets
ARP main studs
ARP L-19 head studs
GT Motorsports built block (I wouldn't have anyone else build the motor)
I made 450whp on this combo with stock cams and heads. The motor can reliably handle much much more power.
JET
Here is my combo.....
Arias Extreme Duty pistons 9.0:1 compression.
Eagle H-Beam rods
HKS head gaskets
ARP main studs
ARP L-19 head studs
GT Motorsports built block (I wouldn't have anyone else build the motor)
I made 450whp on this combo with stock cams and heads. The motor can reliably handle much much more power.
JET
10-24-2006, 05:19 PM
#20
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sharif psoted a link on his site to his engien packages...
you can check this dude too
http://www.importpartspro.com/niin1.html
you can check this dude too
http://www.importpartspro.com/niin1.html