350Zwannabe

OK you cracked me up, the Bunny definition is extremely funny and very witty. It should most definitely be added to Websters Dictionary or the Automotive Dictionary of people who sometimes think they know it all. I'm the first to admit when I don't have the facts sometimes to back **** up. Booooom......I'm dead!

I like stirring it up a bit!

Quark

Hmm im not suprised that you skipped over my entire post and didnt post a dyno.

Anyway, im not sure about the Porsche TT (whatever model that is ), But I know for a fact the the jags AWD system is nothing like the skylines and doesnt put ALL the power in the back after it gets traction (the jag is PERMANENT 40/60 split). Also the AWD system in the FX35/45/murano are DIFFERENT than the skylines.


As for audis haldex. Whenever i've raced audis (read S4, TT) which were heavily modded, I noticed that they just love to understeer. Also thier ECUs suck. If it senses the brake even when the throttle is applied (however lightly), it cuts power. Thats just crazy to me, and doesnt make for awosome lap times.

350Zwannabe

THE PORSCHE TWIN TURBO.

If I'm wrong about the FX35/45 sorry the salesmen's a dick then!

As for the Audi Haldex it's amazing! Understeer can be cut down with lots of different adjustment. PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong, and I know you all will which I appreciate. The only time anyone is hitting the gas and brake at the same time is while HEEL & TOEING. Just blipping the throttle doesn't cut power???? The ecu is very flexible.

HOLY CRAP! WHY DOES GALATI WIN THE LAST TWO SEASONS IN THE CHAMPION S4? GRIP GRIP GRIP. The porsches are faster down the straights.

OK, and for skipping your prescious dyno post. Its because I never dynoed my car before because I could care less. Theres hundreds of S4s with the same Mods I have that are all pushing similiar numbers depending on chip companies.

Still got love for ya!

BurnOutz

Ever heard of left foot braking?

Maybe the driver? I dunno, don't watch that stuff. They should really throw the Lancer EVO in there then or something along those lines. I'm pretty sure it will be able to hang in there since it is lighter, grips grips grips. How much power does the "champion s4" have?

Quark

yes salesmen often are dicks who know nothing!.

Yes it can be cut down. From the statement below, I can see you have never been on a ROAD COURSE. I am talking about racing, and I raced heavily modded TTs and S4s, and while the understeer is nowhere near as bad as stock, its still pretty bad especally in the tighter turns.

Well like somone else said, left foot braking. And yes, the ECU does cut power when it senses any overlap of brake and throttle, which I learned the hard way on the track.

First that is a modified RACING S4 correct? It is very different than the cars that they sell to the public. But yes, Audis (like I said before) do very good in racing events. RS8 owns Lemans.

Well when making claims that your cars has XXXlb-ft at 2krpms a dyno would be helpfull.

I agree about the numbers you are pushing, hell I've seen S4s put out even more power than that. (hell, the RS4 is 420bhp stock). Its just that I looked over at audiworld at a large number of dynos, and none of the similarly modded S4s had that much tq untill 3800rpms plus.

You too

ITR#203

350z wannabe, I think you are a bit confused. You see, the 100% front to rear all wheel drive that you were talking about is the halidex all wheel drive avaliable on TT's. The car here is 100% front wheel drive until it starts slipping. It can distribute power to the rear infinately until 100% of the power is going to the rear. HOWEVER, as good as it sounds, it is generally considared inferior to your all wheel drive system, which is all wheel drive all the time with a 50-50 split. When slipage is detected up to 33% can be distributed from front to back. The fist system described isnt good because a driver can sense understeer which CAN (not saying that it necessarily would) immediately turn to oversteer if one is not careful.

I think there are 4 systems of all wheel drive that could be inconsidaration for the best all wheel drive systems.
1. The all wheel drive system on the Skyline GT-R's, which maintains rear wheel drive bias until slip is detected.
2. The all wheel drive system on the 911's, which similarly maintains a 5-95 split and can go up to a 35-65 split.
3. The new WRX Sti all wheel drive system. A center differential allows the driver to select how much a bias he/should like from inside the car. Then there are limited slip differentials for both the front and rear axels.
4. The Lancer EVO VII and VIII all wheel drive systems (JDM and European verisions). Similar to the WRX STi system. The USDM version is a plain mechanical center differential with a limited slip differential in the rear.

The S4's all wheel drive is TOO restrictive. High amounts of immediate torque are restricted through electronics, prohibiting great launches ( the computer will literarly kill engine output to save the drivetrain, which is good but bad from a performance standpoint). The 911's all wheel drive system is kinda prohibitive as well. The Skyline GTR's will let you do whatever you want to, 7000 rpm clutch drop? you've got it....at your discression that is .

KrautFed

I know alot of people that will argue that point to death. I've seen/rode/driven several modded S4's and they can be no sloutch on demand. I guess every AWD can be made to launch nicely, but does require different driving techniques.

Damn my FWD.

BTW- Torque is nice. ~300 crank ft. lbs. w/ stock turbo & no n2o

350Zwannabe

Man, my car launches like I have claws in the pavement. All I need to do is drop the clutch at 3000 to 3500 RPMs while on the up rev and I'm slaughtering any car of the line like I was in a sling shot. NEver felt the car bog down abit and never heard any S4 owners talking about that happening, especially the drag racing guys pushing 400+Hp.
Who needs to drop a clutch at 7K anyways. The tranny definitely won't last to long doing that a handful of times.

Your right theres lots of different AWD configurations. Whichever one floats your boat is great, I prefer anyone of the cars you mentioned. I have experience with Subarus and Audis anyone of these cars were extremely fun to drive at the limit. I did however get to drive an R34 Nismo Skyline at the 2000 Nismo Festival at Fuji Speedway and that was just pure sickness. Sorry, didn't launch it.

Blades

I got plenty of torque to go around. Before my latest mods it was around 500rwtq at 2.5k rpms.. I'm sure that a company will market a roots blower package for the VQ, and then you'll have your torque.


heres a pic of my dyno sheet.

I certainly hope you weren't expecting this.. The Z isn't a tire smoking muscle car. I dont think two turbos on it will be all that bad eh?

Blades

does someone wanna resize that for me? Jeez.. sorry guys i dont have photoshop at hand.

Quark

I cant agree with anything you said about halidex on the TT, it does not under any cicrumstances tranfer ALL the torque front or rear wheeels.

Its also apparent that you dont know much ab out AWD systems.
And how can you call the NEW STi's the best (or consider it one fo the best) when it hasent even been released. Just because it has DCCD doesnt mean it will be among the best. Look at the Jap spec EvoVII, it has AYC and AWC, yet the american one the regular diffs performs just as well if not better.

nismor33

So what do you want to know about the system in the STi and in the Skyline???? Just traded my STi for the Z and prior to that I had an R33 Skyline.

The AWD system in the STi was great. 6000+ rpm launches with all four wheels grabbing the road gets that car off the line VERY quickly. Unfortunately something has got to give and the clutch after 1 year was not going well.

The SureTrak LSD system was supurb and the car did not have the terrible understeer of your stock WRX. Oversteer was fairly easily achievable.

Skyline is much better in my opinion. Excellent traction off the line and does not have the understeer problem of the STi. The driveline in that thing is near bullet proof. Simple example is one R33 in Australia running under 10sec qtrs with stock driveline for sometime!

The Active Yaw system in the EVO can be very unsettling on the edge. Better without.

Mike

Sudou

Isn't Audi's advertising talking about how their AWD system is the only one banned by rally racing because it's too good? I'm not sure if that is true or not but certainly a good arguement for why it's the best AWD out there..

Quark

Quite a bit actually.

You traded in an STi for a Z, sorry, but that is a step DOWM performancewise.

Yes thebeauty of AWD and revving uber high unless you want to bog down

While yes, it has nowhere near the understeer of a stock WRX, it still understeers pretty bad.

True, it does has a little understeer, but it is much more prone to snap oversteer.

Have to disagree there. If you can drive, and drive REALLY well then the AYC in the evo is a godsend, but its for the experienced only. Although in the US EVO they did a miraculous job of keeping the evo one of the best handling cars without the AYC.

\

350Zwannabe

I can't argue intelligently about AWD sys.'s because I'm not mechanically inclined unlike some people on this forum.lol Hey, I try.

But really there is no need to argue because YOUR RIGHT. Audi is known for one of the ultimate AWD systems on the market. As far as I know, they were banned from Touring Car Racing for many years because of the advantage of AWD. No one could beat them in the late 80's (Hurley Haywood) especially in the rain. Now its a different story. The S4 is alot heavier then the Porsches and all other cars out there but yet still winning. I am just wondering but why is it that you see EVO's and Subarus road racing in Japan and Europe but not USA??? Here you have S4's going up against Vettes and other High torque high horsepower cars. OK. I know what your thinking, there race cars not road going cars, but it must tell you something. Why doesn't Audi compete in WRC? I have no idea. The Audi TT is small and nimble and would look sweet jumping into the air.

nismor33

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You traded in an STi for a Z, sorry, but that is a step DOWM performancewise.
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Yeah so far I think so too. However I have picked uo so much more like quality, looks, better driving exeperience and a good platform to modify.

The STi is a cheap car with bolt on bits and feels like that. I had a strut collapse after 500kms driving, a piece of plastic fall out from under the dash, every bump brought out a new noise on and on....

Also to get the power out of it you need to wring its neck, caught out in the right gear you get beaten by the slowest car!!!

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While yes, it has nowhere near the understeer of a stock WRX, it still understeers pretty bad.
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STi was not bad. Understeer because of front weight but easy fix.

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True, it does has a little understeer, but it is much more prone to snap oversteer.
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And your point is what ??? ))))

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Have to disagree there. If you can drive, and drive REALLY well then the AYC in the evo is a godsend, but its for the experienced only. Although in the US EVO they did a miraculous job of keeping the evo one of the best handling cars without the AYC.
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Hmmm - the GTP race series that we have most of the guys have removed AYC.

If only the R34 got released down here......

ITR#203

Quark, I still disagree. The halidex all wheel drive is front wheel drive car until it senses slip and then it sends power to the rear wheels. I was under the impression that it COULD be a 0-100 slip in some rare cases, but I will concede that I am only 50% sure about that. If anything I was trying to justify 350zwannabe's "100% front and 100% rear" comment. However, if you will be as so kind as to explain to us "ignorant" how it functions, I could not thank you enough.

2. Many professional race car drivers do not see all wheel drive as an advantage. Honestly, if all wheel drive were such an advantange, F1 would be using it.

3. The American EVO VIII DOES NOT HANDLE AS WELL AS THE Japanese EVO VII and EVO VIII. The American version understeers too much, even ask the owners.

4. Just cause you cant do a high rpm clutch drop doesnt mean that a Skyline GT-R's drivetrain is worse .

5. My hailing of the new STi's all wheel drive system was a bit hasty. However, I do feel that with DCCD as well as the limited slips on the front and rear. It will prove to be one of the best.

Finally, I have determined that we are arguing something that cant be figured out. There are a lot of different things that affect the handling of a car other than the type of all wheel drive, if we are basing the "best" off of that. In fact, I would say that the suspension pays a much bigger role than HOW "GOOD" a all wheel drive system is. If we are going by how complecated the system is then we should remember the K.I.S.S. principle and as Quark "kindly" (although inccorectly) pointed out, more complicated does not always mean better.

Quark

I believe that the audis Halidex (in the TT at least) is a 60/40 front rear split. Which doesnt really make it a "front driver". If it senses slip I think it can go 70/30 to 50/50 (not positive about those #'s).

Its not necessarily an advantage, it all depends on how the car was designed...I mean look at the R8 and all its LeMans victories.

I dont know for sure, but I would assume you are right. But it has still pulls as much Gs as a Z06 on the skidpad, and tops its slalom speed. Maybe in the future we will me able to buy the AYC from mitsu.

Did i say the skylines drivetrain was worse? Hell, I love the skyline I would get it over an evo anyday *drool* rb26dett *drool*

Im sure it will be good. And the DCCD is an awosome feature (again more for advanced drivers). But the evo is still recognized as one of the best handling cars in the world...all we can say is it will be a fun battle

Agreed...mostly

ITR#203

First of all Quark, I must say that it is quite obvious that you are a car enthusiast and I appologize if any of my comments seemed like personal attacks. I also considar myself to be a car enthusiast and well, what's a couple of disagreements about minor facts? Maybe you are right about the TT, but I always thought that the TT was a front driver until provoked. It made sense to me b/c TT's were originally designed as front drivers. If not, I would have rather seen the all wheel drive system on the S4's, A4's, etc. in the car, but apparently it couldnt fit (same reason the halidex is used on Golfs and Jettas). Second, The EVO is a very very good handling car. However,he super quick steering and the lack of body roll give a perception of a car that is even better at handling than it really is. At the limit, unfortunately, without the front limited split, it understeers, something I've never heard anyone with a Jap spec EVO VII/VIII complain about (even though I've heard that some Euro Evo versions have understeer) In conclusion, I agree with pretty much everything you said in your post.

350Zwannabe

I will get exact specs on the Audi AWD sys.'s for you all. Yes, your right about the TT using the same system as the VW's because the engine had to be Tranversely mounted unlike the A4's and S4's.

I know this will sound stupid so I'm asking for your help. If you raise a car up on a lift and apply throttle and the front wheels or wheel spins and nothing else, what is that called (example, TT)? Also, if you do the same thing to another car and all 4 wheels spin freely, what do you call that (example S4)? That is what happens with both of these cars when lifted into the air. I'm confused on what that might mean.

I know S4's that have ESP on them will detect any slippage from any ONE corner of the car and transmitt torque diagnally across to the other wheel to prevent loosing control and doesn't apply brake force.

From what I know the S4 gets equal amounts of power down to all 4 wheels until there is slippage of some sort.