Good feedback rocks. Please post back on your rev limiter findings if you make that call. I only see that you should use the springs if you do raise limit, but I would be surprised if they didn't recommend more work to make this safe. All the springs will do is reseat the valves quick enough to allow for higher rpm, doesn't mean it is safe though. I would bet on your unconventional NA motor this would be OK, but maybe not on a stock motor.

 

98sr20, drop some cams in and report back. Swapping cams on our cars sucks if you do it yourself and is expensive if someone else does it.

If you want the real deal on cat delete headers and full exhaust, call Jackson Stewart. If you ask him nicely maybe he'll have a set made up for you. Be prepared to spend $4000 dollars on a header to muffler exhaust, but you will see some amazing gains. (pm for dyno) There is one other option for long tube and that's a European brand who's name eludes me right now. Oh yeah, installing headers in our cars sucks if you do it yourself and is expensive if someone else does it.

Lots of people, including myself, have worked on a intake systems for our cars. It was a widely held belief here that the intake was the bottle neck to performance. Unfortunately, there is so little room under the hood that every solution so far has been just a different compromise. After two years of development I gave up on ITB's. simply due to room constraints and the amount of compromises required to make it happen.

I along with lots of others have been down the n/a road and I think conventional wisdom is right. If you just want speed, go turbo. If you have some purpose for staying N/A like road racing, autocross, personal pride etc then thats cool and an interesting but expensive experiment. Let the ideas in this thread temper your expectations for what you will get from n/a.

 

said better than I did, thanks man ^

 

Revlimit with jwt springs is 7200 rpms he said the cams will not make power past 6700 or so rpms. Hm.

 

Thanks, just read it from my computer and wow i suck at typing with my phone's keyboard. Engrish as a second language, ftl.

 

honestly no one installs high compression piston. Thats the flaw

 

So would you say they are worth the time/energy/cost you paid? I know thats subjective but your the only one with a set that I know of.

 

Ah, thanks.

What he said. I guess you put them in while the engine was built?

 

Thats a typical JWT thing. He normally sets his redline about 500rpm past power peak. No point in going any higher especially with a close ratio transmission. BTW, when does the stock ECU cut the fun on our engines

 

I think cutoff is at 7100 rpm. I can't test it to tell you anymore, not that I rev past redline anyway, but my limiter is gone.

 

I think the cut off for the rev up is at 7000rpm, exactly where the redline is...

98sr20ve:

As what Adam and zillinois said... even bolt on N/A mods are expensive... I initially went for Nismo S1 Engine setup only (nismo S1 cams... In: 276/11.0mm, Ex: 256/10.5mm), great gains, but it is no where comparable to those FI mods... I even chose an ECU that can control cam timings + nismo VTC... yeild out around 47wHP in total for around 10K USD (for the engine job + cams, motec + tunings, intake tube, valve springs, header, VTC and rod bolts and some gaskets)... that 10K does not include those cats, cat back exhaust, flywheel and other things that I have already got. If you want to get great power out of the cams, an ECU that can alter cam timing is really a must to have just like what Adam mentioned earlier. The story doesn't just stop there as we experienced a lot of idling/stalling problems with these cams and that means more time and money put into that... I believe even Amuse experienced this earlier with nismo S1/S2 cams, so they even have a program to overcome this idle/stalling issue in Japan with those setups... (check out the latest JDM Option magazine... I read it about 2 days ago in Japan myself).

Then I went for another engine rebuilt with new rods, higher compression pistons and some minor head works just simply because I wanted to get more power out of the engine... after the rebuilt, we tried to rev up higher as the max. power was at 7200rpm or so... and we got valve problems (nismo springs, similar rate as JWT springs let go) at 7500rpm or so... then we pulled the motor out again and dropped in a set of Ferrea valvetrain kit... then we went 8200rpm safely from there... how much gain this time you might ask... a total of around 17rwHP or so for another 10K+ USD job ( I cannot really remember the exact figure, but might be close to 15K)...

It is not necessary that a tuned N/A car is far more reliable than a FI car... because a n/a car with bolt-on parts will screw up badly if the tuning isn't done right... even some stock cars have engine problems off the factory floor already (especially on the rev-up motor, we experience a lot of pinging downunder from a brand new revup)... so it is a bit of hit and miss there... no one can really say which is more reliable though.

It also seems that you are a N/A hardcore fan too... I would say... go for the N/A tune as you will enjoy it as much as I do... and share your experiences with all the guys here, so when they want to do up their cars, they will have some references to look for in the future! All the best!

cheers,

richie

 

Again. Your are doing the all or nothing thinking. It's got to be all the way for NA to be worth it. People are runnig low 13's with the basic NA mods and that is with out cams. The only super expensive thing you get going NA is cams. And those can be carried over to the FI setup if you like. So it's not a waste of money. Sure if you buy MOTEC and tear into the engine of course thats going to get expensive. That probably neted you next to nothing compared to the UTEC or even going with a Greddy E-manage or using a simple Nismo FPR to adjust AFR (if you can do that on the VQ). That is not what I am talking about. NA is Cams, Headers, Intake, Exhaust, Tuning, Spacers, Pullies, Clutch/Flywheel. Maybe a couple other things. From that list only Headers and Intake don't carry over into FI. That type of NA car is not more expensive then you FI car, not less reliable if tuned right. Some of the things are required if you go FI anyway (clutch) It's everyone's lack of cams around here that amazes me. I am going to order the FSM to see exactly what is involved with this process. It's can't be that hard. Even if you have to drop the engine thats not that bad. So you drop the engine, slide it out, and change the cams. Sounds like the perfect time to me to change that heavy flywheel out. The only way NA is more expensive is if you go overboard open the engine. Of course you won't get FI power out of a NA car. Thats pretty obvious.

BTW 350Zlover. It's never a good idea to mix and match springs and cams. Cams are tuned to the springs (frequency wise). Your problem could have been that. Plus you used the mildest cams JWT has to offer. You were trying to get Max Power and RPM out of the wrong cams. Should have just done the C1's from the start. You still would not have been that happy as it sounds like you had unreasonable goals. Let me say it again (sence no one is listening). I never said 300whp. I said, You should be approacing advertised crank HP amounts at the rear wheels using a dynojet. So around 270-290whp depending on engine. This would be with Cams, intake, exhaust, headers, pullies, ecu, spacers and tuning. Throw spring on the deal if you pick S7 or C1 cams. The 290whp is for the RevUp engine but thats pretty new and not a lot of people have modded it to get an idea of what you get with out the cams.

 

Above is a perfect example of what I am talking about 266whp with out cams. He is clearly just a cam swap away from achieving my goal. But if you search the forum over you simply don't see the people doing this type of things and cams. Add some true Long Tube headers and the results would be even better. I would guess he could get 280whpish out of the car with proper long tubes and cams. Until people start using long tubes and cams we simply won't know for sure. But everyone else building other engines see's great results with Long Tube headers vs the shorties.

 

low 13's is not the norm by any means, especially with street tires. Never the less, lots of us are not even into drag racing. I've yet to take my car to the strip because I know at its current state (269 whp, 265 torque), it's not worth my time/expense to even try (especially since I have a car that runs 10's as well, and don't even enjoy drag racing anymore). But that's a personal preference thing

Have you used an emanage on a Z yet? It pales in comparison to a utec. Richie went motec because he new his cam selection warranted it (because of VTC control). The emanage does a lot of neat stuff - but its well beyond the scope of what most people can self tune, and its well beyond the scope of what most tuners use. The utec, in that regard, has proven to be the preferred platform, if for no other reason that its out of the box utility, from install to tuning.

As we've said, go ahead, get all the bolt on mods and see where you end up, post the results and your budget at the same time. Has not been done on the revup yet afaik. On an NA car, that setup you describe above is expensive, plain and simple

Cams is not a hard install.....its extremely time consuming. though. Can easily double the cost of the purchasing of the cams in the first place. That is why most people forgo them. Dropping the engine is not all that hard..but again, it takes along time to do

I am not meaning to be rude when I ask this, but I don't know any other way to ask - why do you think you automatically know more than people who have been here, and modded these cars since 03? You've got some of the more modded NA guys on this board all telling you the same exact thing. If that still makes you want to try and crack that 300 whp on a stock block, go for it.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with mixing and matching springs and cams. JWT is not grinding their own cams nor are they making their own springs - so right off the bat you very well may be mixing and matching, since we have no idea who actually produces the stuff for them. Richie went NISMO springs + NISMO cams before, and his setup did not work out. I know of other cars running to 8k redline with NISMO springs and various cams, so his situation may or may not have been isolated. Fact is, there are not enough out there with either his cams or his NISMO springs to really know. Richis is not using JWT cams - he is using NISMO (they were the ones who came up with the S1, S2 monikers) - so it gets confusing. His cams are by no means mild - they are actually the most radical NISMO offers, and they are the cams every single big power Z in Japan (and elsewhere) are using (though they are all running them with the NISMO heads and as a result, high compression).

As an FYI, Richie's car represents the absolute pinnacle of what has been achieved power wise with this engine to date. Yes he's got heaps of money invested and certainly could have exhanged one part for another to achieve (maybe) similar results. Nevertheless, his car rivals the best that the Japanese tuners have achieved to date with the VQ in NA form, and his car certainly is the highest NA hp car we have on the boards (just too bad he is in Oz so we can't see a dynojet sheet!!!!). He is the result the rest of us are chasing at the moment.

For my own car, my original plan was to do a fully built set of heads, tomei cams (268's), short tubes (I want to keep my high flow cats on the car), and a full tune. As luck would have it, an opportuning presented itself that I could not pass up, and now my build is far more involved. My all or nothing attitude stems from the fact of having worked on these cars for over 3 years now, with cars at our place as well as all over the world, and seeing the net results of the time/money/expense put into the parts and labor. I've also gotten a chance to experience, through being a long standing vendor, what the customer base for these cars will deal with from a budgetary standpoint. Yes there are lots of people who have spent lots of money on their cars. The vast majority have decided that the small tweaks are where they will stop, because anything more requires a giant leap forward in money, time and cost. This is not a car that lends itself to the term "bang for the buck"

The Ferrea springs he put in were his solution, and are obviously way more spring than his cam (or any cam) needs

Anyway, this is getting circular - we're all just repeating ourselves. Only way you are going to find out is to do it yourself. Believe me, we are not being naysayers or wet blankets - we are being pragmatic.

 

If that's your idea of great value/dollar, you are in the minority here.

I have similar figures (269 hp.264 torque, no headers (yet) no cams (yet) and I am still using cats. I decided that investing in cams and headers and the associated install time (around $1700 ish in parts + 15-20 hours of my time) was not worth 20 whp, so I am now going more radical. Everyone else tends to think the same way, and that's why the FI route has been embraced.

There are all of 1 set of long tube headers out there for the Z that are readily available - and they don't make any more power than shorties + test pipes.

I think you're trying to bring your previous power/car experience over to your current ride, and while good conceptually, it does not translate well into this particular car, just by the mere fact that the parts and the labor are far far more expensive vs 4 cylinder nissans

 

I did the cams when the engine was out. I have a 14lbl jwt flywheel also. The seems to me to be much faster than stock with the cams.

 

It's a judgment call. But you are spending more to get more. It's not like FI is cheaper. It's only cheaper if you go with a cost/hp analysis. NA is simple, cheaper, and not as powerful. Throw cams on your car and you are 1/3 the way to FI prices (just counting the cost of cams). No doubt that is going to make you think about the path you take with your car. I still don't know if I would trust a FI car in a HPDE setting for a long amount of time. I struggle with add on turbo kits. I used to do HPDE's all the time in my old car and I avoided turbo for that very reason. Even NA my transmission was a weak link. Seen lots of supposedly safe add on boosted cars blow up. Seldom saw the NA cars do it.

Then they aren't tuned with the right pipes or length. Long Tubes making power is almost a constant in this world. Done right they work better then shorties.

I do my own labor. Always have. Don't think that is going to change much because it's a V6 now. I knew about the cost of parts when I bought the thing. First thing I looked at was the cost of the JWT/Greddy TT kits. I could pay that if I felt that was the direction I want to go in the future. None of that bothers me. I am probably far from normal for this group it seems.

 

I would love to see your car. If you ever come up I-25 thru Colorado let me know.

 

I agree that there are compromises in its design - but the right design/materials and build costs nets you a header in the $1500-$2500 range - no matter how much power they make, they won't sell to this community. The long tubes that exist (XERD) are pretty nicely done, though I've yet to see them make any better power with the typical cams than shorties do. I'm going to start with my short (which was free), and my high flow cats, then try test pipes just to see what we can get on a race gas map. From there, we may have Kooks or someone similar make us a set of long tubes (they are local to us and good friends), but we'll see down the road

 

Add a 3.9fd and fuel system and that list is easily 10k IF you do it yourself. So for 10k you'll net 285 whp or 50hp over stock. You can get a single turbo kit for 6k and have 4k left over for install, gauges, knock sensor, tuning etc. Might be a little short on funds here, but not far off and you'll net 380-400 to the wheels. The cost of basic bolts on is not worth it if you are just looking for cheap speed. Otherwise, everyone on this board would have them instead of turbos. I can tell you we are a bunch of cheap bastards here, we seek to minimize our expenditures. ;-) (Flame suit on!)


PM me and I can host the Nissan FSM for you. Cam install is a two day job for backyard mechanic with a set of good tools. Yes you can do it yourself though. Call a dealer and get a quote on how many hours it takes for new cams. Lets say dealer goes 12 hours at 80 bucks an hour your looking at $960 for install, not including gaskets, fluids, parts etc. I'm not sure a shop would make much profit at $1200 bucks for install. (Adam can correct me if I'm wrong) So for most non-diy people, cams are $2200-2500 for 15hp.


Yes, this is exactly what you get from the basic bolt ons. There are tons of people pulling those numbers. Crawford has been working on a "complete package" to get more hp for years!! You can have it for 10k.



Cams $1000-$1500
Long Tube Headers $1000-$1500 (Or regular headers and cat deletes $1350 if you can't make or find lt headers)
Intake $200
Exhaust $1000-1500
UTEC/Tune $1400 or multiple Technosquare reflashes $700
Fuel Sytem $500-1000
Plenum/Spacer $200-$500
Pullies $200
Clutch/Flywheel $800-1000
3.9 Final Drive $1500

Its possible to do it for less, but you'll have to wait for deals, or accept lower quality goods. Ask any guy here with all boltons what their receipt totals are and my bet is most are between 8500-10k absolute minimum. I had 12k in my setup not including wheels, tires, brakes. I'm not trying to talk you out of it, because it was fun building the car no doubt and my car was a monster on the track. Just know how much it will cost.