inG35coupe

I was thinking the other day about nitrous. And I was thinking, maybe you could have a tank in your engine bay where it would take in the air from the outside and seperate the nitrogen from the rest of the air ( such as oxygen and other gases). It might be hard to do, but it would provide a continuous flow of nitrogen into the engine for boost. Any scientists want to figure this out?

lEtMeZ1

Not really what you are talking about, but I saw a modded out dodge ram at the track once with two no2 tanks in its engine bay. They were kinda above the tires in the bay if that makes sense. The bay was really big and could never be done in a car. THe only reason I can think of why they did that was to keep the tanks warm??

failsafe

Correct me if I'm wrong (Insaneamine or others). Nitrous is N2O- so even if you could separate Nitrogen from Oxygen and other gases, you would then have to combine two parts N with one part O meaning you would need some type of fusion reactor.

Possibly in the future along with robots to do my laundry

ares

iTrader: (2)

yup, nitrous oxide is nothing more than a potent source of oxegen, it does not replace gas, it replaces oxegen. making it not that different than FI. but it has another benifit, when the oxegen splits from the nitrogen, it absorbs energy, making it very very cold, thats the second benifit of it.

their fore, you could take nitrogen from the atmosphere, and add oxegen, with the proper catalysts and intermediate steps ect. but in the end, it would get extremely hot giving off LOTS of heat. counteracting the benifits in an effort to cool it.

mark_wilkins

No fusion reactor required, what he's talking about is all chemistry, no nuclear physics.

Still, it won't work.

The nitrogen isn't where the power comes from when you squirt nitrous oxide into your engine -- it's the oxygen.

Normally gaseous nitrogen, (N2) is very, very stable. In fact, at sea level its 79% of the air you breathe. Your car's intake is already pumping plenty of nitrogen into the engine along with the oxygen. Most of it goes through untouched, and a small amount of it reacts to produce smog components like NO and NO2, which the catalytic converters then do their best to take back out.

N2O has an extra oxygen tacked on -- there's some energy bound up in this arragement, and the oxygen isn't very tightly bound to the nitrogen (remember N2 without the O is nice and stable, so the N2O wants to shed the oxygen and return to that state.)

When you squirt N2O into the engine, if the throttle's open the N2O reacts with the fuel the same way oxygen in air (O2) does, but much more violently. First off, the energy bound up in the N2O gets released as the oxygen breaks off, and second the oxygen helps feed the burning fuel, like forced induction but more concentrated.

Adding gaseous nitrogen to your engine will only kill performance UNLESS you had some kind of system that could make N2O on the fly. However, N2O, like I said, has this energy bound up in it, so you'd need an energy source. This is presumably where the fusion reactor comes in -- your engine couldn't produce enough energy to keep your car going AND produce enough N2O constantly to keep the engine on boost.

I imagine you could, in some alternate fantasy universe, have a system where the engine powers some process that makes N2O on the fly over a long period of time, storing it up, then releasing it only when you hit the trigger. Probably in real life this equipment would be too heavy, too susceptible to failure, or too dangerous.

-- Mark

ares

iTrader: (2)

it would be analogous to using the energy from the engine to put all of the exhaust gasses back together to form gasoline and oxegen again, except that you couldnt recoupe all the heat that escapes in the form of waste. so youd be on a losing proposition, I think an engine loses like 70% of the energy it has to heat.

mark_wilkins

Actually it's not such a lame idea: something that generates a tiny trickle of N2O over a very long period of time, sucks only a tiny amount of energy from the drivetrain, and stores it up in a bottle.

You'd only get one blast of nitrous every few days of driving, maybe, but you'd save on buying the stuff.

Costs of building such a system would probably exceed the reasonable cost of nitrous you'd buy over the lifetime of your drag racing career though.

-- Mark

ares

iTrader: (2)

the weight of the system would be bad, and you would lose a little power all the time, sort of like twisting a rubber band for 2 days with the engine power, then letting it go for a 10second boost.

failsafe

Great explanations, Thanks guys- This is why I'm in Telecommunications and not chemistry. Of course these days I'm wishing I was in some kind of chemistry field . Not a stupid idea- just ahead of it's time

Alang

iTrader: (1)

OK, so here is a question from a programmer that knows nothing about chemistry. If the point is to get more O into the mix, why aren't there O2 injection systems? This seems too obvious a solution, so I'm sure there has to be a good reason its not done. O2 is very stable, and very easy to get, so whats the scoop?

Ben Davis

o2 is flamable at romm temp, N2O is not, O2 is PURE oxygen and allows for very little room for error, straight o2 is harder to come by

Ben

eskimo

Yup, if you read in my "Big Bad Nitrous Post " having pure O2 in your intake is much like the puddling effect of nitrous, except it dosen't have to puddle, oxygen is so flammable that a standard back fire into your intake manifold would like the oxygen and the explosion would travel all the way back to the tank, and your *** would blow up the way green eclipses with N2O seem to.

raceboy

Hmmm, correct me if I am wrong (been a while since I took chemistry) but I am pretty sure oxygen itself IS NOT FLAMMABLE. Oxygen is not the fuel in a reaction, simply a catalyst. The room I am sitting in right now is full of oxygen, if I light a match, the room doesn't blow up, but if there was no oxygen in the room, the match would not burn.

The only reason you squirt nitrous into an engine is so you can also squirt in more fuel and maintain the correct ratio. It's still the fuel giving you more power.

And Ares, when atoms split, they release energy, not aborb it. The cooling effect comes from the gas expanding. That is why you need a bottle warmer if you are going to be be spraying often.

ares

iTrader: (2)

cant prove or disprove it all, but O2 is consumed in the reaction so it is more than a catylist.

I thought I also remembered that O2 was flammable, but I also remember that O2 will not burn by itself, technically combustion can only come from carbon compounds, if it isnt carbon based, it will not burn. it can give off heat, but the most oxegen could do by itself is become O from its natural O2 state... but that would pretty well never happen. O cannot exist I dont think, if it could you wouldnt know since youd already have it heated to like the point of plasma before it would split.

mark_wilkins

OK, here's the scoop:

Burning requires an oxidizer (O2, normally, N2O and O2 when you're using nitrous) and a reactant (fuel.) Burning requires both to take place. You can say that both are "flammable" but neither will burn without the other.

Neither is a catalyst -- each react with the other to make a third thing. A catalyst is a substance that makes the reaction between two or more other substances go faster but that remains unchanged afterward.

Things that are not carbon-based can DEFINITELY burn. Magnesium and potassium, for example, burn very easily, and if you've ever seen a magnesium flare, you'd remember it.

Free oxygen atoms DO exist in the atmosphere, but in very small numbers and not for very long, because they react so easily with things. If you ever hear people talk about "free radicals," individual oxygen atoms are one type.

When molecules of N2O split, they do release energy, and as raceboy says the cooling does come from the gas expansion as pressure decreases. (If you ever took high school chemistry you'd probably be familiar with the equiation PV = nRT. Decrease in pressure leads to decrease in temperature.)

Anyway, that's it for the chemistry babble for today...

-- Mark

FLY BY Z

Not if we do a group buy!

Pure oxygen will explode. The reason you can light a match and not explode is because your room is not filled with only oxygen. If you breathe pure oxygen you will die.

mark_wilkins

Not by itself; it needs a reactant.

in this instance the match reacts with the oxygen, and if it burns hot enough to set your hand on fire, watch out! However, the ambient oxygen will not, itself, burn.

-- Mark

raceboy

I'm pretty sure if you breath pure oxygen you won't die! What do you think they give you in a hospital?

mark_wilkins

The oxygen they give you in a hospital mixes with the air you're breathing so your blood oxygen concentration doesn't get too high -- also these days they'll use a blood oxygen meter to control how much straight O2 they give you to keep your blood oxygen level within a normal range.

Pure O2 is toxic. Here's an interesting link. http://members.tripod.com/tjaartdb0/..._toxicity.html

Talk about getting WAY off-topic! Hope someone's enjoying this discussion!

-- Mark

failsafe

Breathing pure oxygen over a period of time can lead to lung irritation.

Prolonged exposure to pure oxygen at higher pressures can be toxic, having both pulmonary and neurological effects. Pulmonary effects include edema, loss of lung capacity and damage to lung tissues. Neurological effects can include loss of vision, convulsions and coma.