water wetter or royal purple ice?
04-15-2007, 10:20 AM
#21
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Many miss the point that with a constant power output for reference, if you make the coolant more absorbtive of cylinder head heat the coolant will get hotter and hopefully the same efficiency with improve the radiator transfer rate [?].
Measuring the coolant temp sensor will not actually tell you the head temperature has dropped [what is desirable].........in fact a few degrees hotter coolant with a additive many prove it is working.
The Converse if the coolant goes down might not be good.............only a contact type cylinder head temp sensor will let you know the truth.
When I use a mostly water mixture, I switch in a trim resistor so that ecu will ignore the 3-4F hotter coolant from the better heat transfer of the water.
So that ecu does start reducing advance too early from a modified coolant.
Measuring the coolant temp sensor will not actually tell you the head temperature has dropped [what is desirable].........in fact a few degrees hotter coolant with a additive many prove it is working.
The Converse if the coolant goes down might not be good.............only a contact type cylinder head temp sensor will let you know the truth.
When I use a mostly water mixture, I switch in a trim resistor so that ecu will ignore the 3-4F hotter coolant from the better heat transfer of the water.
So that ecu does start reducing advance too early from a modified coolant.
04-15-2007, 01:27 PM
#22
Personally I am a little cautious about buying into this stuff.
Yes, I did controlled pre/post testing of redline watter wetter in 70/30 coolant and I did indeed measure a 3-4 degree temperature rise...
Was this due to a higher heat transfer rate into the water?... I don't really know that it was or wasn't.
But I can tell you this. There aren't many liquid substances on the face of the earth that have a higher heat capacity than pure distilled H2O.
The only 2 substances (that I know of) with a higher specific heat capasity is Ammonium Hydroxide and one other nasty chemical I can't remember the name of.
And neither of these other substances can be put into your radiator without quickly destroying your engine.
All of these watter wetter like chemicals are based on carbohydrate organic molecules. And I guarantee they all have a lower heat capasity than distilled water.
It can just as easily be said that the 3-4 'F rise in coolant temperature is due to a decrease in coolant heat capasity.
Yes, I did controlled pre/post testing of redline watter wetter in 70/30 coolant and I did indeed measure a 3-4 degree temperature rise...
Was this due to a higher heat transfer rate into the water?... I don't really know that it was or wasn't.
But I can tell you this. There aren't many liquid substances on the face of the earth that have a higher heat capacity than pure distilled H2O.
The only 2 substances (that I know of) with a higher specific heat capasity is Ammonium Hydroxide and one other nasty chemical I can't remember the name of.
And neither of these other substances can be put into your radiator without quickly destroying your engine.
All of these watter wetter like chemicals are based on carbohydrate organic molecules. And I guarantee they all have a lower heat capasity than distilled water.
It can just as easily be said that the 3-4 'F rise in coolant temperature is due to a decrease in coolant heat capasity.
Last edited by Hydrazine; 04-15-2007 at 01:32 PM.
05-09-2007, 08:23 AM
#23
Saw this thread and kept forgetting to get back to it. 
Water Wetter, Purple Ice or any product that is similar doesn't improve the the heat capacity of water/coolant. As has been noted, Distilled H2O has about best capacity out of anything you can put in your vehicle. They will make the actual heat capacity slightly worse.
What these additives do is reduce the effects of viscous drag of the coolant on the walls of your cooling system. This is an effect known as laminar flow.
Imagine a tree trunk. You have a circle with concentric rings. Fluids in a tube will flow in layers that look like that. The innermost layers, the center rings of flow, will flow the fastest while the outer rings will flow the slowest. The layer in contact with the tube might not flow at all. This is your boundary layer. Viscous drag (friction) and turbulance keep that outer layer from moving.
What makes this a problem is your boundary layer is also your thermal transference layer. So the outer layer will be cooler than the inner layers in your radiator, and around the cylinders the outer layer will be much hotter. Because of this, you can develop hot spots around the cylinders. If they get too hot your coolant can start to boil and you get air bubbles. Air bubbles are bad because they create they create a gap between the cylinder wall and the coolant. If the coolant can't contact the cylinder wall, it can't transfer the heat from it. If you can't transfer heat from your cylinders, you get pre-detonation.
Water Wetter changes the properties of the coolant to reduce the viscous drag so the boundary layer will flow more quickly, closer to the flow rate of the inner layers. This helps to improve thermal transference and this is why it makes your coolant temps drop.
Edit: Did a little searching and the scientific explanation (and I dropped out of high school physics, so correct me if I'm wrong) is that the proper balance of laminar flow and turbulence will optimize heat transference in a heat exchanger. Water wetter is a surfactant. Surfactants minimize the bonds of surface tension, the outer layer of fluid, being the surface. Reducing surface tension decreases the variations in layer speed, so the outer layers flow faster. While this can actually reduce the effectiveness of of heat transferred to the outer layer, it increases turbulance between layers, which helps the inner layers of fluid get to the outside layers, so they can exchange more heat.
Water Wetter, Purple Ice or any product that is similar doesn't improve the the heat capacity of water/coolant. As has been noted, Distilled H2O has about best capacity out of anything you can put in your vehicle. They will make the actual heat capacity slightly worse.
What these additives do is reduce the effects of viscous drag of the coolant on the walls of your cooling system. This is an effect known as laminar flow.
Imagine a tree trunk. You have a circle with concentric rings. Fluids in a tube will flow in layers that look like that. The innermost layers, the center rings of flow, will flow the fastest while the outer rings will flow the slowest. The layer in contact with the tube might not flow at all. This is your boundary layer. Viscous drag (friction) and turbulance keep that outer layer from moving.
What makes this a problem is your boundary layer is also your thermal transference layer. So the outer layer will be cooler than the inner layers in your radiator, and around the cylinders the outer layer will be much hotter. Because of this, you can develop hot spots around the cylinders. If they get too hot your coolant can start to boil and you get air bubbles. Air bubbles are bad because they create they create a gap between the cylinder wall and the coolant. If the coolant can't contact the cylinder wall, it can't transfer the heat from it. If you can't transfer heat from your cylinders, you get pre-detonation.
Water Wetter changes the properties of the coolant to reduce the viscous drag so the boundary layer will flow more quickly, closer to the flow rate of the inner layers. This helps to improve thermal transference and this is why it makes your coolant temps drop.
Edit: Did a little searching and the scientific explanation (and I dropped out of high school physics, so correct me if I'm wrong) is that the proper balance of laminar flow and turbulence will optimize heat transference in a heat exchanger. Water wetter is a surfactant. Surfactants minimize the bonds of surface tension, the outer layer of fluid, being the surface. Reducing surface tension decreases the variations in layer speed, so the outer layers flow faster. While this can actually reduce the effectiveness of of heat transferred to the outer layer, it increases turbulance between layers, which helps the inner layers of fluid get to the outside layers, so they can exchange more heat.
Last edited by helldorado; 05-09-2007 at 09:25 AM.
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05-09-2007, 09:34 AM
#24
Originally Posted by helldorado
Saw this thread and kept forgetting to get back to it.
Water Wetter, Purple Ice or any product that is similar doesn't improve the the heat capacity of water/coolant. As has been noted, Distilled H2O has about best capacity out of anything you can put in your vehicle. They will make the actual heat capacity slightly worse.
What these additives do is reduce the effects of viscous drag of the coolant on the walls of your cooling system. This is an effect known as laminar flow.
Imagine a tree trunk. You have a circle with concentric rings. Fluids in a tube will flow in layers that look like that. The innermost layers, the center rings of flow, will flow the fastest while the outer rings will flow the slowest. The layer in contact with the tube might not flow at all. This is your boundary layer. Viscous drag (friction) and turbulance keep that outer layer from moving.
What makes this a problem is your boundary layer is also your thermal transference layer. So the outer layer will be cooler than the inner layers in your radiator, and around the cylinders the outer layer will be much hotter. Because of this, you can develop hot spots around the cylinders. If they get too hot your coolant can start to boil and you get air bubbles. Air bubbles are bad because they create they create a gap between the cylinder wall and the coolant. If the coolant can't contact the cylinder wall, it can't transfer the heat from it. If you can't transfer heat from your cylinders, you get pre-detonation.
Water Wetter changes the properties of the coolant to reduce the viscous drag so the boundary layer will flow more quickly, closer to the flow rate of the inner layers. This helps to improve thermal transference and this is why it makes your coolant temps drop.
Edit: Did a little searching and the scientific explanation (and I dropped out of high school physics, so correct me if I'm wrong) is that the proper balance of laminar flow and turbulence will optimize heat transference in a heat exchanger. Water wetter is a surfactant. Surfactants minimize the bonds of surface tension, the outer layer of fluid, being the surface. Reducing surface tension decreases the variations in layer speed, so the outer layers flow faster. While this can actually reduce the effectiveness of of heat transferred to the outer layer, it increases turbulance between layers, which helps the inner layers of fluid get to the outside layers, so they can exchange more heat.
Water Wetter, Purple Ice or any product that is similar doesn't improve the the heat capacity of water/coolant. As has been noted, Distilled H2O has about best capacity out of anything you can put in your vehicle. They will make the actual heat capacity slightly worse.
What these additives do is reduce the effects of viscous drag of the coolant on the walls of your cooling system. This is an effect known as laminar flow.
Imagine a tree trunk. You have a circle with concentric rings. Fluids in a tube will flow in layers that look like that. The innermost layers, the center rings of flow, will flow the fastest while the outer rings will flow the slowest. The layer in contact with the tube might not flow at all. This is your boundary layer. Viscous drag (friction) and turbulance keep that outer layer from moving.
What makes this a problem is your boundary layer is also your thermal transference layer. So the outer layer will be cooler than the inner layers in your radiator, and around the cylinders the outer layer will be much hotter. Because of this, you can develop hot spots around the cylinders. If they get too hot your coolant can start to boil and you get air bubbles. Air bubbles are bad because they create they create a gap between the cylinder wall and the coolant. If the coolant can't contact the cylinder wall, it can't transfer the heat from it. If you can't transfer heat from your cylinders, you get pre-detonation.
Water Wetter changes the properties of the coolant to reduce the viscous drag so the boundary layer will flow more quickly, closer to the flow rate of the inner layers. This helps to improve thermal transference and this is why it makes your coolant temps drop.
Edit: Did a little searching and the scientific explanation (and I dropped out of high school physics, so correct me if I'm wrong) is that the proper balance of laminar flow and turbulence will optimize heat transference in a heat exchanger. Water wetter is a surfactant. Surfactants minimize the bonds of surface tension, the outer layer of fluid, being the surface. Reducing surface tension decreases the variations in layer speed, so the outer layers flow faster. While this can actually reduce the effectiveness of of heat transferred to the outer layer, it increases turbulance between layers, which helps the inner layers of fluid get to the outside layers, so they can exchange more heat.
I didn't realize we had so many scientists, physicists, and thermal professionals on this forum.
05-09-2007, 10:04 AM
#26
Surfactants don't change the reynolds number (turbulation), flow velocity and viscosity do.
Flow velocity is controlled by the water pump so we don't need to consider flow velocity as a variable. Pump flow is fixed to engine RPM in either case.
Thus in this case, the only way for reynolds number (or turbulation) to be altered is by fluid viscosity. And any favorable change would have to be a reduction in viscosity so the reynolds number could increase... but I seriously doubt this chemical would decrease viscosity. I have never heard of any organic chemical that reduces the viscosity of water.
In all my years in aerospace engineering and thermodynamics I've never heard of any "water wetters" that can improve the heat tranference of water.
I won't say its not impossible but I would think that if it existed, it would at least be known by the aerospace community. Aerospace, as a normal practice, is very heavily involved in heat transfer engineering.
Maybe if this chemical changed the way nucleate boiling occurs?... IDK
I would like to hear one of the water wetter companies engineers explain how this stuff works.
Flow velocity is controlled by the water pump so we don't need to consider flow velocity as a variable. Pump flow is fixed to engine RPM in either case.
Thus in this case, the only way for reynolds number (or turbulation) to be altered is by fluid viscosity. And any favorable change would have to be a reduction in viscosity so the reynolds number could increase... but I seriously doubt this chemical would decrease viscosity. I have never heard of any organic chemical that reduces the viscosity of water.
In all my years in aerospace engineering and thermodynamics I've never heard of any "water wetters" that can improve the heat tranference of water.
I won't say its not impossible but I would think that if it existed, it would at least be known by the aerospace community. Aerospace, as a normal practice, is very heavily involved in heat transfer engineering.
Maybe if this chemical changed the way nucleate boiling occurs?... IDK
I would like to hear one of the water wetter companies engineers explain how this stuff works.
05-09-2007, 10:21 AM
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thank you Tony!! I knew someone understood this stuff
Does water wetter work? Yes when added to 100% tap water (which you should not run anyway).
Does it work when added to a 50/50 coolant mix or when added to Distilled Water? Barely enough for it to be worth it.
Would I use any of it? Hell no. I've seen first hand where this stuff literally gels up and blocks coolant passages. There is no way I'd ever run it having seen this first hand, nor can I even conjure up any scenario where it's use would actually be beneficial vs straight coolant/water mix or distilled water. Especially on a car with an aluminum head and aluminum block, such as a Z.
Does water wetter work? Yes when added to 100% tap water (which you should not run anyway).
Does it work when added to a 50/50 coolant mix or when added to Distilled Water? Barely enough for it to be worth it.
Would I use any of it? Hell no. I've seen first hand where this stuff literally gels up and blocks coolant passages. There is no way I'd ever run it having seen this first hand, nor can I even conjure up any scenario where it's use would actually be beneficial vs straight coolant/water mix or distilled water. Especially on a car with an aluminum head and aluminum block, such as a Z.
Last edited by Z1 Performance; 05-09-2007 at 03:32 PM.
05-09-2007, 11:48 AM
#31
Originally Posted by Z1 Performance
Would I use any of it? Hell no. I've seen first hand where this stuff literally gels up and blocks coolant passages.
If this chemical is indeed a surfactant, it is most likely ionic in nature. Like soap or fatty acids...
And organic ionic functional groups are more easily oxidized than the standard covalent bonds found in ethyleneglycol based antifreeze.
As such, antifreeze is oxidation resistant. Fatty acids and ionic soap like chemicals are not. So I can see how it could gel up over time.
Furthermore, if it is ionic, that means it will have either a proton (acidic) or lithium, sodium, potassium or calcium ions.
And ions of any kind are not good things to have in a coolant system. This alone could lead to dissimilar metal electrolysis.
I could see that creating gel and other problems fast.
Last edited by Hydrazine; 05-09-2007 at 11:52 AM.
05-09-2007, 05:37 PM
#33
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I'm the OP on this. Sincere thanks to all for the really helpful, interesting, and informed discussions. The responses remind me of why I love this forum.
Just fyi, I finally decided to just replace the OEM hoses w/ samco, drain & flush the system, and replace w/ high quality coolant and distilled water @ 60/40 ratio.
After working out the air pockets, which always happen to my ZR on a coolant swap, everything is fine. The car runs nice and cool, and I'm ready to face the blistering Tucson summer. Thanks again.
Just fyi, I finally decided to just replace the OEM hoses w/ samco, drain & flush the system, and replace w/ high quality coolant and distilled water @ 60/40 ratio.
After working out the air pockets, which always happen to my ZR on a coolant swap, everything is fine. The car runs nice and cool, and I'm ready to face the blistering Tucson summer. Thanks again.
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