View Poll Results: Do bolt on mods produce long term power
Yes, bolt on mods like exhaust, intake, headers produce power initially and long term.
49
50.00%
No, bolt on mods only produce initial gains but are compensated for by the ECU and corrected.
16
16.33%
TBD, we need long term testing and dynos w/o reset of the ECU.
33
33.67%
Voters: 98. You may not vote on this poll
bolt on mods- HP or no HP
05-12-2003, 10:45 PM
#21
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Yeah thanks for asking.
Pulley's are a bolt on though... For the record....
I have a large thread on it with pics in the engine section.
Guess that rules out the Apexi!
You are killing thier sales lol...
Pulley's are a bolt on though... For the record....
I have a large thread on it with pics in the engine section.
Guess that rules out the Apexi!
You are killing thier sales lol...
05-12-2003, 11:01 PM
#22
Thanks Jason. it was a blast meeting up with you at SEMA last month... we should all hang out again and talk about non car stuff.. like...
chicks n booze...
chicks n booze...
Originally posted by failsaf3
Cheston is a great guy- I had the opportunity to meet him last month. It says an awful lot when a guy antes up his car for testing so the whole community can benefit.
Cheston is a great guy- I had the opportunity to meet him last month. It says an awful lot when a guy antes up his car for testing so the whole community can benefit.
05-13-2003, 12:13 AM
#23
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Originally posted by Chebosto
Air and Fuel ratios being maintained by the computer is not the only thing that makes/breaks hp gains.. you are forgetting about Timing...
please see my post on the ECU thread on the how our car is cutting back the power... i'm not saying that the car can physically remove the more air you're getting. but it's killing the ignition timing severely to compensate to get it back to the stock levels
Air and Fuel ratios being maintained by the computer is not the only thing that makes/breaks hp gains.. you are forgetting about Timing...
please see my post on the ECU thread on the how our car is cutting back the power... i'm not saying that the car can physically remove the more air you're getting. but it's killing the ignition timing severely to compensate to get it back to the stock levels
However, why would the ECU pull timing? It certainly isn't because we have more power. Afterall, the engine and computer have no way of knowing this, right? I guess what I am saying is that while I don't disagree that the car is pulling timing, I wonder about the part where you say "to get it back to the stock levels." As far as I know, the only "it" the ECU can control is A/F and timing (not sure how the variable valve timing works, so maybe that is another). It cannot control or measure HP directly, correct?
However, it will know if we start to knock. Perhaps the car is pulling timing because the engine is knocking due to a leaner condition? I remember SCC did a dyno with higher octane gas and gained HP, and I also remember some members (and maybe SCC as well) mentioning that the spikiness of our dyno's could be due to retard of the timing.
How do dyno's measure A/F ratio? Is it on an individual cylinder basis, or is it by an average for all cylinders? I've seen some dyno's that show intakes making very little changes to the A/F, but maybe that's only on average. Perhaps some cylinders are actually running leaner and timing is getting pulled for that reason. I'm guessing that the only reason the ECU would seem to cancel gains would be if they aren't really there in the first place, or if they cause the engine to run leaner in some cyliners and therefore pull timing.
The fact that you see the ECU pulling timing is strange, and I certainly don't know exactly why, but I still have a very hard time believing that it is somehow trying to bring the power back down to stock levels.
Again, show me some data with other parts having their gains negated, and I will begin to change my mind. The timing issue is intriguing, though.
-D'oh!
EDIT:
So after reading your update on the ECU, I guess the part that I don't understand is that if you have a lean condition, how does retarding the timing make that closer to a stock A/F ratio. Afterall, isn't that what the O2 sensors are measuring? I definitely don't know the details of what the ECU is doing, but just from a chemistry standpoint I don't see how retarding timing is going to change the A/F ratio. So again, I'm not wondering what is happening, since you've explained that pretty well. Instead, I'm wondering why it's happening and how that helps the engine from a reliability standpoint (Nissan's biggest motivation to limiting tunability of the engine IMO) or any other standpoint for that matter.
Thanks for you time, both with the earlier response as well as all the work with the ECU.
-D'oh!
Last edited by D'oh; 05-13-2003 at 12:24 AM.
05-13-2003, 12:44 AM
#24
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Thanks for you time, both with the earlier response as well as all the work with the ECU.
A/F leaning and KR warning is good but there needs to be more than that for me to buy it especially if it is hard wired.
I still need to know if anyone is working on
A. A plug and play one like Hypertech where you can convert back to stock in 2 minutes
Or
B Rev limiter raising , shifting point adjustments, adjusting for other tire heights and dual mode storage in memory like Apexi.
This is breaking new ground where (if true) the ECU can put your car back to stock power HP TQ however you want to classify it.
Like my pullies. It will learn them too and negate the gain?
I am skeptical well highly to be honest on *that* particular issue.
An engine either gains power or it doesn't on certain mods.
05-13-2003, 01:34 PM
#25
The pullies SHOULD not alter the program.. since its not inducing more air or anything like an intake would.. its just freeing up the rotational energy from spining the heavier crank pullies.. i believe that the UR pullies will maintain power...
as far as raising the rev limiter. i still dont see the need for it. although they CAN bump it up some 500 more Rpms safely, there's no need to over rev this engine, unless of course you're squeezing.. then yes.. i would understand.. but on a stock car there's no point.. the power band for the VQ dips down after 6k and.. well.. i dont see the need for it...
as far as raising the rev limiter. i still dont see the need for it. although they CAN bump it up some 500 more Rpms safely, there's no need to over rev this engine, unless of course you're squeezing.. then yes.. i would understand.. but on a stock car there's no point.. the power band for the VQ dips down after 6k and.. well.. i dont see the need for it...
05-13-2003, 10:06 PM
#26
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I am squeezing and you need to run slightly rich.
That's why you need 2 modes, street and strip.
Something to ponder anywayZ because I won't buy one without dual mode memory banks.
As for the rev limiter you can raise it 600 easy and that can really help your E/T
The S2000 has a 9000 limit. Why is that?
Shift points? On motor you raise them, on N20 you lower them.
The tire height keeps your odometer accurate if you change rim/tire sizes. Hypertech even let's you adjust fan speed turn on temps, they come on earlier when you race etc. Great product, I miss it.
I think I am gonna wait for plug and play ala Hypertech www.hypertech.com (they won't make one they are domestic but SOMEONE will!)
Plug it in make changes and unplug. Back to stock in minutes whenever you want (like for service etc.)
Peas!
That's why you need 2 modes, street and strip.
Something to ponder anywayZ because I won't buy one without dual mode memory banks.
As for the rev limiter you can raise it 600 easy and that can really help your E/T
The S2000 has a 9000 limit. Why is that?
Shift points? On motor you raise them, on N20 you lower them.
The tire height keeps your odometer accurate if you change rim/tire sizes. Hypertech even let's you adjust fan speed turn on temps, they come on earlier when you race etc. Great product, I miss it.
I think I am gonna wait for plug and play ala Hypertech www.hypertech.com (they won't make one they are domestic but SOMEONE will!)
Plug it in make changes and unplug. Back to stock in minutes whenever you want (like for service etc.)
Peas!
05-14-2003, 06:51 AM
#27
the S2000 has a 9000 limit because its a completely different motor with a different torque curve and horsepower settup with high compression.
That's apples and oranges. THAT motor was designed to rev high to take advantage of their VTEC and higher compression ratios.
the VQ IS NOT A HONDA MOTOR! when will people learn that this motor is not supposed to rev super high to get power.. it was designed to give torque at the low end of the RPM and that's where its main power comes from.. everyone knows that the VQ suffers from a bad camshaft design that limits its high-rpm power.. the phyiscal strength of the cams will NOT take the higher rpms...
THAT is why it has a stock 6800 Redline and that is WHY it does NOT have a 9000 limit.
That's apples and oranges. THAT motor was designed to rev high to take advantage of their VTEC and higher compression ratios.
the VQ IS NOT A HONDA MOTOR! when will people learn that this motor is not supposed to rev super high to get power.. it was designed to give torque at the low end of the RPM and that's where its main power comes from.. everyone knows that the VQ suffers from a bad camshaft design that limits its high-rpm power.. the phyiscal strength of the cams will NOT take the higher rpms...
THAT is why it has a stock 6800 Redline and that is WHY it does NOT have a 9000 limit.
Originally posted by MaxHax
The S2000 has a 9000 limit. Why is that?
!
The S2000 has a 9000 limit. Why is that?
!
05-14-2003, 07:08 AM
#29
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Thanks Ches!
The Honda put down less than 200 to the RW's? LOL
What about my other questions about features above?)
Didn't know about the camshaft, I know the drive shaft is suspect too.)
Good Intel, keep it coming you are breaking new ground here.
All this time I thought they had us beat on launches due to low end, learn something new every day. I almost raised one but declined, conditions were not safe.
Rdit add,
what smoothing factor was used on that Z of Skidazzle's and is that after all his mod's?
The Honda put down less than 200 to the RW's? LOL
What about my other questions about features above?)
Didn't know about the camshaft, I know the drive shaft is suspect too.)
Good Intel, keep it coming you are breaking new ground here.
All this time I thought they had us beat on launches due to low end, learn something new every day. I almost raised one but declined, conditions were not safe.
Rdit add,
what smoothing factor was used on that Z of Skidazzle's and is that after all his mod's?
Last edited by 12SecZ; 05-14-2003 at 07:13 AM.
05-14-2003, 10:27 AM
#31
....for your health
Thread Starter
So Cheston- Are we looking at two weeks w/o a Z if we want a modified ECU? Or will Technosquare eventually have a shop here in the states that can turn the ECU flash faster?
(I know- best case scenario - find another ECU )
(I know- best case scenario - find another ECU
)
05-14-2003, 12:19 PM
#32
Jason/Everyone:
THE TWO WEEKS TURNAROUND IS ONLY FOR THE FIRST AUTOMATIC 350Z PROTOTYPER..
the NORMAL turn around time once 'production' starts is 3 to 4 days depending on the Shipment method that you choose..
aka
Fed Ex to them, they mod, they Fed Ex back to you
if we dont get an Automatic Z to do the prototyping.. we will NOT get an ECU program for automatics
SIMPLE AS THAT...
THE TWO WEEKS TURNAROUND IS ONLY FOR THE FIRST AUTOMATIC 350Z PROTOTYPER..
the NORMAL turn around time once 'production' starts is 3 to 4 days depending on the Shipment method that you choose..
aka
Fed Ex to them, they mod, they Fed Ex back to you
if we dont get an Automatic Z to do the prototyping.. we will NOT get an ECU program for automatics
SIMPLE AS THAT...
Originally posted by failsaf3
So Cheston- Are we looking at two weeks w/o a Z if we want a modified ECU? Or will Technosquare eventually have a shop here in the states that can turn the ECU flash faster?
(I know- best case scenario - find another ECU )
So Cheston- Are we looking at two weeks w/o a Z if we want a modified ECU? Or will Technosquare eventually have a shop here in the states that can turn the ECU flash faster?
(I know- best case scenario - find another ECU
)
05-14-2003, 12:41 PM
#33
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Cheston,
All this ECU stuff is pretty much greek to me, but I have a question that I'm not sure if its even a stupid question or not. You tell me.
Alright, is there a way that Techno can generate unique programs for specific modifications? For instance, if I go out and pick up the Injen Intake & Borla Exhaust, I purchase a specific ECU that takes maximum advantage of those mods. Then in a few months I pick up headers, I can pickup another new program that takes advantage of that and all my other existing mods? I mean, of course it would take a great deal of work to get each of these "programs" built, but then wouldn't I be able to get the optimum performance out of the car?
Also, do you know if Techno will be able to do the job any quicker when they have everything set up, (ie 1 day delivery), and could bring the car to their shop?
As always, thanks for your sacrifice. We'll get you outta that Maxima and back in to your Z soon enough.
Take care.
All this ECU stuff is pretty much greek to me, but I have a question that I'm not sure if its even a stupid question or not. You tell me.
Alright, is there a way that Techno can generate unique programs for specific modifications? For instance, if I go out and pick up the Injen Intake & Borla Exhaust, I purchase a specific ECU that takes maximum advantage of those mods. Then in a few months I pick up headers, I can pickup another new program that takes advantage of that and all my other existing mods? I mean, of course it would take a great deal of work to get each of these "programs" built, but then wouldn't I be able to get the optimum performance out of the car?
Also, do you know if Techno will be able to do the job any quicker when they have everything set up, (ie 1 day delivery), and could bring the car to their shop?
As always, thanks for your sacrifice. We'll get you outta that Maxima and back in to your Z soon enough.
Take care.
05-14-2003, 01:25 PM
#34
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Good question, I'm assuming it would have to be reflashed if anything changed that is why I am leaning towards a flashing type diagnostic port plug and play model to flash it myself when needed.
05-14-2003, 02:25 PM
#35
....for your health
Thread Starter
Originally posted by dczoner
Cheston,
All this ECU stuff is pretty much greek to me, but I have a question that I'm not sure if its even a stupid question or not. You tell me.
Alright, is there a way that Techno can generate unique programs for specific modifications? For instance, if I go out and pick up the Injen Intake & Borla Exhaust, I purchase a specific ECU that takes maximum advantage of those mods. Then in a few months I pick up headers, I can pickup another new program that takes advantage of that and all my other existing mods? I mean, of course it would take a great deal of work to get each of these "programs" built, but then wouldn't I be able to get the optimum performance out of the car?
Also, do you know if Techno will be able to do the job any quicker when they have everything set up, (ie 1 day delivery), and could bring the car to their shop?
As always, thanks for your sacrifice. We'll get you outta that Maxima and back in to your Z soon enough.
Take care.
Cheston,
All this ECU stuff is pretty much greek to me, but I have a question that I'm not sure if its even a stupid question or not. You tell me.
Alright, is there a way that Techno can generate unique programs for specific modifications? For instance, if I go out and pick up the Injen Intake & Borla Exhaust, I purchase a specific ECU that takes maximum advantage of those mods. Then in a few months I pick up headers, I can pickup another new program that takes advantage of that and all my other existing mods? I mean, of course it would take a great deal of work to get each of these "programs" built, but then wouldn't I be able to get the optimum performance out of the car?
Also, do you know if Techno will be able to do the job any quicker when they have everything set up, (ie 1 day delivery), and could bring the car to their shop?
As always, thanks for your sacrifice. We'll get you outta that Maxima and back in to your Z soon enough.
Take care.
Cheston- I was also curious as to whether the flash would be offered in Stage 1, Stage 2, Stage 3 etc type releases or if it would be "one flash fits all". I'm assuming the latter since Stage Kits would involve much time and research and would require customers to use pretested configuartions of exhausts, intakes headers etc.
05-14-2003, 09:13 PM
#36
Dave/Jason/Everybody..
TSI (TechnoSquareInc.) CAN generate unique tweaked programs for specific modifications, thats not the problem.. the problem is, finding that correct map that will make good power for each mod... now there are what, four different intakes out there on the market, let alone five different exhaust systems... to have the man power to put out almost 20 different ecu mappings, each one having to be specifically tuned. i understand that would be optimal, but thats just not really the best business scense, when 1 generic program will allow ALL these mods take benefit of a modified fuel/ignition timing changes. its not a stupid question, TSI just doesnt think its worth the phyiscal man hours to do such a thing... they have the program now at a point where the fuel/air ratio with the correct ignition timing will take advantage of ALL modifications done after the ECU is put on.. remember that feedback loop value i was talking about before? well by changing that value and limiting how the car tries to retard the timing, the 'changes' the ecu will try to do stops at a certain point and after its reached it 'equilibrium' of adjustments and you'll get constistant power gains rather than these flucuating dyno graphs we've seen from dynoing at time of mod and say, four monthes later...
If you pick up headers down the line, or pickup a full catback. the ECU will know this, and you'll still be benefiting from the ECU.... Now, say you go Boost, like i will intend do. (or NOS) THEN that will be a slightly different story where TSI will have to goback and redo a completely different (and probably a custom job at first) to get the correct retardation of the timing and a slightly richer fuel map than the Naturally Aspirated program.. but that's still doable...
Since TSI is located in practically the center of the LA area, they will take drop ins... Flashing the ECU's Memory takes around 20 minutes, and checking everything out before you go home will proabbly take 40 minutes, so yea. i would assume you can get this all done within an hour and hang around and chat..
TSI is working on an update for their website that will include all the necessary information that they have seen (what i have posted...) and for those people that STILL dont believe a word i've said.. a dyno chart. and technical writeup on the why we're seeing these cut backs in power, and what to expect from the ECU mod...
i just hope that people realize that the ECU isnt the magical key that unlocks the superduper-plasma-ion-kryptonite-energy source that's secretly hidden in our VQ, but it will definately help everyone in getting that extra power, helping fuel economy (by making the engine run more efficient) and getting good gain throughout the RPM band and not just PEAKing hp spikes somewhere...
now.. if we can just reachout and touch that one friendly and gracious Automatic Z owner that would help TSI and the whole Z community out by sending us your ECU for just two weeks so we can get the core program downloaded... i believe that will seal the deal for completeing the first ever US-Spec ECU mod for this car!! exciting!
now.. after saying all of this... hopefully you have a better understanding of why we're going to release 1 generic (but yet still very good power-gaining) ecu program... (for sure, those people who want to take it up a notch and add some Bam Sauce, custom tuning can and will be available for a Not-yet-determined tuning fee.... not too shabby for those Race Teams out there. *cough* *cough*....
oh yes.. one more thing.. the higher the octane level, expect to see some very nice gains..
you lucky bastards on the east coast...
TSI (TechnoSquareInc.) CAN generate unique tweaked programs for specific modifications, thats not the problem.. the problem is, finding that correct map that will make good power for each mod... now there are what, four different intakes out there on the market, let alone five different exhaust systems... to have the man power to put out almost 20 different ecu mappings, each one having to be specifically tuned. i understand that would be optimal, but thats just not really the best business scense, when 1 generic program will allow ALL these mods take benefit of a modified fuel/ignition timing changes. its not a stupid question, TSI just doesnt think its worth the phyiscal man hours to do such a thing... they have the program now at a point where the fuel/air ratio with the correct ignition timing will take advantage of ALL modifications done after the ECU is put on.. remember that feedback loop value i was talking about before? well by changing that value and limiting how the car tries to retard the timing, the 'changes' the ecu will try to do stops at a certain point and after its reached it 'equilibrium' of adjustments and you'll get constistant power gains rather than these flucuating dyno graphs we've seen from dynoing at time of mod and say, four monthes later...
If you pick up headers down the line, or pickup a full catback. the ECU will know this, and you'll still be benefiting from the ECU.... Now, say you go Boost, like i will intend do. (or NOS) THEN that will be a slightly different story where TSI will have to goback and redo a completely different (and probably a custom job at first) to get the correct retardation of the timing and a slightly richer fuel map than the Naturally Aspirated program.. but that's still doable...
Since TSI is located in practically the center of the LA area, they will take drop ins... Flashing the ECU's Memory takes around 20 minutes, and checking everything out before you go home will proabbly take 40 minutes, so yea. i would assume you can get this all done within an hour and hang around and chat..
TSI is working on an update for their website that will include all the necessary information that they have seen (what i have posted...) and for those people that STILL dont believe a word i've said.. a dyno chart. and technical writeup on the why we're seeing these cut backs in power, and what to expect from the ECU mod...
i just hope that people realize that the ECU isnt the magical key that unlocks the superduper-plasma-ion-kryptonite-energy source that's secretly hidden in our VQ, but it will definately help everyone in getting that extra power, helping fuel economy (by making the engine run more efficient) and getting good gain throughout the RPM band and not just PEAKing hp spikes somewhere...
now.. if we can just reachout and touch that one friendly and gracious Automatic Z owner that would help TSI and the whole Z community out by sending us your ECU for just two weeks so we can get the core program downloaded... i believe that will seal the deal for completeing the first ever US-Spec ECU mod for this car!! exciting!
now.. after saying all of this... hopefully you have a better understanding of why we're going to release 1 generic (but yet still very good power-gaining) ecu program... (for sure, those people who want to take it up a notch and add some Bam Sauce, custom tuning can and will be available for a Not-yet-determined tuning fee.... not too shabby for those Race Teams out there. *cough* *cough*....
oh yes.. one more thing.. the higher the octane level, expect to see some very nice gains..
you lucky bastards on the east coast...
Originally posted by dczoner
Cheston,
All this ECU stuff is pretty much greek to me, but I have a question that I'm not sure if its even a stupid question or not. You tell me.
Alright, is there a way that Techno can generate unique programs for specific modifications? For instance, if I go out and pick up the Injen Intake & Borla Exhaust, I purchase a specific ECU that takes maximum advantage of those mods. Then in a few months I pick up headers, I can pickup another new program that takes advantage of that and all my other existing mods? I mean, of course it would take a great deal of work to get each of these "programs" built, but then wouldn't I be able to get the optimum performance out of the car?
Also, do you know if Techno will be able to do the job any quicker when they have everything set up, (ie 1 day delivery), and could bring the car to their shop?
As always, thanks for your sacrifice. We'll get you outta that Maxima and back in to your Z soon enough.
Take care.
Cheston,
All this ECU stuff is pretty much greek to me, but I have a question that I'm not sure if its even a stupid question or not. You tell me.
Alright, is there a way that Techno can generate unique programs for specific modifications? For instance, if I go out and pick up the Injen Intake & Borla Exhaust, I purchase a specific ECU that takes maximum advantage of those mods. Then in a few months I pick up headers, I can pickup another new program that takes advantage of that and all my other existing mods? I mean, of course it would take a great deal of work to get each of these "programs" built, but then wouldn't I be able to get the optimum performance out of the car?
Also, do you know if Techno will be able to do the job any quicker when they have everything set up, (ie 1 day delivery), and could bring the car to their shop?
As always, thanks for your sacrifice. We'll get you outta that Maxima and back in to your Z soon enough.
Take care.
05-14-2003, 10:34 PM
#37
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I ran 5 gallons of 100 octane and lost 6 mph on my trap and 6 or 7 tenths in my ET!
Wasn't the motor and new pullies I did a 2.0 60' all motor on street tires with an Auto!
Not bad for a V6 with stock tires, 2.0 60'!
My car went into KR at 99mph every run and I made 7 passes all were 99mph then the car fell on it's face and I think it was the 100 octane.
I have an Auto with intake Exhaust and N20.
I have 3 cars and could lose my car for 2 weeks.
What is in it for me if I send my ECU with this setup Chestbo?
Seriuosly. A free ECU upgrade? I would do it.
Wasn't the motor and new pullies I did a 2.0 60' all motor on street tires with an Auto!
Not bad for a V6 with stock tires, 2.0 60'!
My car went into KR at 99mph every run and I made 7 passes all were 99mph then the car fell on it's face and I think it was the 100 octane.
now.. if we can just reachout and touch that one friendly and gracious Automatic Z owner that would help TSI and the whole Z community out by sending us your ECU for just two weeks so we can get the core program downloaded... i believe that will seal the deal for completeing the first ever US-Spec ECU mod for this car!! exciting!
I have 3 cars and could lose my car for 2 weeks.
What is in it for me if I send my ECU with this setup Chestbo?
Seriuosly. A free ECU upgrade? I would do it.
05-15-2003, 07:06 AM
#38
like i said before.. first automatic ECU that we get to test would be....
F
R
E
E
... but mind you this is for Naturally Aspirated.... if you plan on squeezing, then i'd probably have that retuned for NOS.... and would only benefit you when you're squeezing and for regular driving time it would be slower than normal.... unless you know at what RPM you squeeze at... then maybe they can adjust the timing at that specific RPM to retard...
F
R
E
E
... but mind you this is for Naturally Aspirated.... if you plan on squeezing, then i'd probably have that retuned for NOS.... and would only benefit you when you're squeezing and for regular driving time it would be slower than normal.... unless you know at what RPM you squeeze at... then maybe they can adjust the timing at that specific RPM to retard...
Originally posted by MaxHax
What is in it for me if I send my ECU with this setup Chestbo?
Seriuosly. A free ECU upgrade? I would do it.
What is in it for me if I send my ECU with this setup Chestbo?
Seriuosly. A free ECU upgrade? I would do it.
05-15-2003, 08:10 AM
#39
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Originally posted by Mr. Potato Head
I doubt they will though because you sound like a guy who is truly interested in helping the masses. I def. appreciate all you are doing and am truly looking forward to this computer mod so that I can get going on all the fun stuff under the hood!
I doubt they will though because you sound like a guy who is truly interested in helping the masses. I def. appreciate all you are doing and am truly looking forward to this computer mod so that I can get going on all the fun stuff under the hood!
Hope to make to Z really MOVE!!
05-15-2003, 08:46 AM
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Originally posted by MaxHax
I ran 5 gallons of 100 octane and lost 6 mph on my trap and 6 or 7 tenths in my ET!
Wasn't the motor and new pullies I did a 2.0 60' all motor on street tires with an Auto!
I ran 5 gallons of 100 octane and lost 6 mph on my trap and 6 or 7 tenths in my ET!
Wasn't the motor and new pullies I did a 2.0 60' all motor on street tires with an Auto!