Toluene? Just a few questions.
11-03-2007, 02:13 AM
#1
Toluene? Just a few questions.
I'm thinking about purchasing 2 gallons of toluene & mixing with 4-5 gal of 91 octane for my own high octane mix for my next track day & my dyno day. Has anyone done this with their Z/G with success? How do you make the mix? Do you just pour it into the gas tank then add 91 octane afterwards? Do you have to add anything to the mixture to make it work? Is there a particular brand that works well? I did a search on this site and someone mentioned that it will make the plastic & hoses in the fuel system crack & wear over time. Is this still true? I'm not going to make this a regular occurence (just for the occasional track day & dyno day: which is @ 2-4x a year).
The reason why I'm looking at this and not race gas is because I do not feel like driving more than an hour to get race gas (@$8.50 BTW
) when home depot is just down the street and 91 oct is the highest we get in AZ (94 oct was readily available in NY 
). Thanks for answering my questions.
The reason why I'm looking at this and not race gas is because I do not feel like driving more than an hour to get race gas (@$8.50 BTW
) when home depot is just down the street and 91 oct is the highest we get in AZ (94 oct was readily available in NY ). Thanks for answering my questions.
).
11-03-2007, 12:34 PM
#4
I read an article on this a while back where they found that the toluene did improve detonation resistance. However, it also made the gasoline burn slower which resulted in reduced horsepower. I'll see if I can dig it up.
Edit: Check out this transcript of "Power in a Bottle" from the July, '05 issue of Sport Compact Car. Link
Edit: Check out this transcript of "Power in a Bottle" from the July, '05 issue of Sport Compact Car. Link
Last edited by Lawn Dart; 11-03-2007 at 12:48 PM.
11-05-2007, 05:50 AM
#6
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The ignition advance must correlate with the flame speed of the fuel you buy or blend............to optimize BMEP to occur at 16 degrees ATDC.
Race engineers use a pressure sensor [a washer like device that fits between a spark plug and head] to measure BMEP vs crank rotation a degree at a time.
These signals allow ignition to be constantly optimized for fuel.........fuel flame speed varies with fuel and combustion chamber temperature. Why a well stablized cooling system is important as that reflects head temp which is the closest measure of combustion temp. [other than exhaust temperature variations per cylinder].
Gasoline already contains at least 10% Toluene some refinery batches have 22%................P/M- Xylene is another choice.
California has extremely LOW benzene and aromatic limits that make it unique so toluene and xylene and others can show a better effect than areas with higher base aromatics.
Watch out for metallic octane boosters [ferrocene and MMT] which will foul spark plugs and increase compression with deposits on pistons and valves QUICKLY.
If your fuel system can survive and you don't care about MPG and you can reprogram AF and injector flows ethanol can be great octane booster.
Race engineers use a pressure sensor [a washer like device that fits between a spark plug and head] to measure BMEP vs crank rotation a degree at a time.
These signals allow ignition to be constantly optimized for fuel.........fuel flame speed varies with fuel and combustion chamber temperature. Why a well stablized cooling system is important as that reflects head temp which is the closest measure of combustion temp. [other than exhaust temperature variations per cylinder].
Gasoline already contains at least 10% Toluene some refinery batches have 22%................P/M- Xylene is another choice.
California has extremely LOW benzene and aromatic limits that make it unique so toluene and xylene and others can show a better effect than areas with higher base aromatics.
Watch out for metallic octane boosters [ferrocene and MMT] which will foul spark plugs and increase compression with deposits on pistons and valves QUICKLY.
If your fuel system can survive and you don't care about MPG and you can reprogram AF and injector flows ethanol can be great octane booster.
Last edited by Q45tech; 11-05-2007 at 06:09 AM.
11-05-2007, 07:05 AM
#7
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Gurgen has been doing some research on Toluene as an alternative octane booster. Here's an explanation I got from him. I'll PM him if he got any new info.
"Yes, toluene has an r+m/2 octane rating of 114. here is a cool link for reading up on it:
http://www.elektro.com/~audi/audi/toluene.html
It's a good way to go, no doubt. Here is the kicker though that no one knows about.... octane mixing is not a linear relationship. For example, 50% of 114 rating toluene and 50% of 91 octane gasoline would give you a rating of (114+91)/2 or 97.5. In reality, the octane is higher than this (fortunately). However, I have a few hours of attempted research into the subject and was not able to find any good data on how it really mixes. In reality, your rating on the said mixture would be higher than 97.5, just how much higher I do not know. I am waiting ona response from a friend of a friend of a friend (seriously) who is a petroleum engineer to shed some light on it. A classmate of mine who was a chemical engineer inquired with Valero R&D (her former employer before pharmacy school) and got a response that "10% toluene and 90% 91octane gasoline would give you an octane rating of 98" I would be extatic if that were indeed the case, but it was a bit hard to believe (as the predicted linear octane would only be 93.3).
"
"Yes, toluene has an r+m/2 octane rating of 114. here is a cool link for reading up on it:
http://www.elektro.com/~audi/audi/toluene.html
It's a good way to go, no doubt. Here is the kicker though that no one knows about.... octane mixing is not a linear relationship. For example, 50% of 114 rating toluene and 50% of 91 octane gasoline would give you a rating of (114+91)/2 or 97.5. In reality, the octane is higher than this (fortunately). However, I have a few hours of attempted research into the subject and was not able to find any good data on how it really mixes. In reality, your rating on the said mixture would be higher than 97.5, just how much higher I do not know. I am waiting ona response from a friend of a friend of a friend (seriously) who is a petroleum engineer to shed some light on it. A classmate of mine who was a chemical engineer inquired with Valero R&D (her former employer before pharmacy school) and got a response that "10% toluene and 90% 91octane gasoline would give you an octane rating of 98" I would be extatic if that were indeed the case, but it was a bit hard to believe (as the predicted linear octane would only be 93.3).
"
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11-05-2007, 12:53 PM
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There is a number called the "blending octane coefficient" which depends on the 100 of chemicals and their % in the commercial gasoline you want to upgrade.
http://www.eri.ucr.edu/ISAFXVCD/ISAFXVPP/AcDEAOS.pdf
"6Using oxygenates like ethanol displaces toxic components like aromatics and results in over-compliance with the
RFG toxics limits. Without oxygenates, refiners would likely increase aromatic use to enhance octane. While the
fuel may still be in compliance with the RFG toxics cap, the real world impact would be increased toxic emissions.
In fact, in recognition of the potential octane shortfall without oxygenates, California increased its aromatic cap in
order to accommodate the “non-oxy” RFG they are petitioning EPA for approval to use. Aromatics (benzene,
toluene and xylene) are the major contributors to toxic emissions from gasoline."
http://www.arb.ca.gov/fuels/gasoline...3carfg3reg.pdf
http://www.ethanolrfa.org/objects/do...outethanol.pdf
"Tailpipe NOx emissions increased by approximately 30% with a 20% ethanol blend compared with no increase for a 10% blend."
"Aldehyde emissions will increase as the percentage of ethanol increases. Predominantly, this is due to acetaldehydes increasing by more than 100% with ethanol blends of 10%. Formaldehyde emissions will remain relatively constant."
http://www.eri.ucr.edu/ISAFXVCD/ISAFXVPP/AcDEAOS.pdf
"6Using oxygenates like ethanol displaces toxic components like aromatics and results in over-compliance with the
RFG toxics limits. Without oxygenates, refiners would likely increase aromatic use to enhance octane. While the
fuel may still be in compliance with the RFG toxics cap, the real world impact would be increased toxic emissions.
In fact, in recognition of the potential octane shortfall without oxygenates, California increased its aromatic cap in
order to accommodate the “non-oxy” RFG they are petitioning EPA for approval to use. Aromatics (benzene,
toluene and xylene) are the major contributors to toxic emissions from gasoline."
http://www.arb.ca.gov/fuels/gasoline...3carfg3reg.pdf
http://www.ethanolrfa.org/objects/do...outethanol.pdf
"Tailpipe NOx emissions increased by approximately 30% with a 20% ethanol blend compared with no increase for a 10% blend."
"Aldehyde emissions will increase as the percentage of ethanol increases. Predominantly, this is due to acetaldehydes increasing by more than 100% with ethanol blends of 10%. Formaldehyde emissions will remain relatively constant."
Last edited by Q45tech; 11-05-2007 at 02:59 PM.
11-06-2007, 07:26 PM
#9
*update*
I decided to give this a try. So far I'm running a 20% mix of xylene & 80% 91 oct (4 gal xylene & 16 gal 91 oct). I also advanced my timing +2 (via cipher). So far the car runs noticably stronger & smoother also (it cleaned the hell out of the fuel system). My idle is remarkably smooth. I also added 4oz of mmo to the mix for lubrication. I'm going to run the same 20% mix when I run at the track on friday to quantify any improvements.
******Disclaimer******
These are highly toxic chemicals & are known to be carciogenic. Before attempting this I'd buy gloves, a funnel, and maybe a gas mask. Do not do this in a closed area. Also most importantly use your head
.
I decided to give this a try. So far I'm running a 20% mix of xylene & 80% 91 oct (4 gal xylene & 16 gal 91 oct). I also advanced my timing +2 (via cipher). So far the car runs noticably stronger & smoother also (it cleaned the hell out of the fuel system). My idle is remarkably smooth. I also added 4oz of mmo to the mix for lubrication. I'm going to run the same 20% mix when I run at the track on friday to quantify any improvements.
******Disclaimer******
These are highly toxic chemicals & are known to be carciogenic. Before attempting this I'd buy gloves, a funnel, and maybe a gas mask. Do not do this in a closed area. Also most importantly use your head
.
11-07-2007, 07:23 AM
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p, ortho, mixed xylene is a common chemical in gasoline especially premiums.
"The economics of xylene are worse than toluene. Xylene from industrial sources is “mixed-isomer” and has less octane boosting ability than toluene and a higher unit cost. The higher octane, single isomer varieties of xylene, typically obtained through science and laboratory supply businesses, are obscenely expensive, upwards of $100 per gallon."
At the refinery it cost 4.0-4.75 cents per gallon to create premium vs regular. If you use a BOB suboctane [not RBOB] and improve with ethanol at the terminal it is a profit tool [The BOB cost 4 cents less than even standard grades...........then the 51 cent Federal tax blending credit [10% = 5.1 cents per gallon].
Ethanol is 1.827 per gallon spot Dec 7 delivery....60 cents less than RBOB
"The economics of xylene are worse than toluene. Xylene from industrial sources is “mixed-isomer” and has less octane boosting ability than toluene and a higher unit cost. The higher octane, single isomer varieties of xylene, typically obtained through science and laboratory supply businesses, are obscenely expensive, upwards of $100 per gallon."
At the refinery it cost 4.0-4.75 cents per gallon to create premium vs regular. If you use a BOB suboctane [not RBOB] and improve with ethanol at the terminal it is a profit tool [The BOB cost 4 cents less than even standard grades...........then the 51 cent Federal tax blending credit [10% = 5.1 cents per gallon].
Ethanol is 1.827 per gallon spot Dec 7 delivery....60 cents less than RBOB
Last edited by Q45tech; 11-07-2007 at 07:32 AM.
11-07-2007, 10:28 AM
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Here's a thread I created with different Octane Booster including Toluene.
A 20% mix of toluene only yielded a few points (RON) so you have to go over that to really get a good bump. This review was done in Australia so of course the top 2 product will be Aussie made
https://my350z.com/forum/forced-induction/313156-octane-booster-review.html
The Torco Octane Booster seem to be popular in the Corvette/STI/Stang...etc and look very promising and has been around for many years. To get a good amount of Octane Boost with Toluene, you need to go at least 30% mix but would not go over 40%. Toluene is also a monitored substance by the DEA so be careful on ordering hundreds of gallon of them. Xylene is a better choice coz the DEA don't care about them and has a higher octane rating than toluene (117).
Lots of people swear about the Torco and I'm going to try them since it is more convenient to carry one small can than mixing 2-4 gallons of Toluene.
A 20% mix of toluene only yielded a few points (RON) so you have to go over that to really get a good bump. This review was done in Australia so of course the top 2 product will be Aussie made
https://my350z.com/forum/forced-induction/313156-octane-booster-review.html
The Torco Octane Booster seem to be popular in the Corvette/STI/Stang...etc and look very promising and has been around for many years. To get a good amount of Octane Boost with Toluene, you need to go at least 30% mix but would not go over 40%. Toluene is also a monitored substance by the DEA so be careful on ordering hundreds of gallon of them. Xylene is a better choice coz the DEA don't care about them and has a higher octane rating than toluene (117).
Lots of people swear about the Torco and I'm going to try them since it is more convenient to carry one small can than mixing 2-4 gallons of Toluene.
11-09-2007, 05:16 AM
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Every days production at each refinery is different [within ranges], sometimes if you are lucky they store and mix 2-3 days to a more uniform mixture.
The point is you cannot say 20% of this or that is required. You have to mix and test with each batch.
"Pipelines can carry a number of products in sequence and travel at about 3 to 8 miles per hour so a trip from the Gulf Coast to Chicago takes about 12 days."
Always start with non ethanol Premium.
The point is you cannot say 20% of this or that is required. You have to mix and test with each batch.
"Pipelines can carry a number of products in sequence and travel at about 3 to 8 miles per hour so a trip from the Gulf Coast to Chicago takes about 12 days."
Always start with non ethanol Premium.
