Turbos, am i right or wrong?
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Joined: Jun 2002
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From: Gainesville, Florida
Originally posted by AxionF117
dude thats completely wrong, a T61 (.58a/r) will infact out spool 2 medium twins (aka the tiny turbo's on a supra) and can support over 500rwhp. The lag on a T61 is so minimal. A twin setup is easier for the Z, but twins do lag more, period. But if your boosting at 5psi on a Z anyway does it really matter?
If a single was laggy why would you want it for drag racing? Do you see how that doesn't make any sense now? An aftermarket single is much more streetable then an aftermarket upgraded twins kit.
dude thats completely wrong, a T61 (.58a/r) will infact out spool 2 medium twins (aka the tiny turbo's on a supra) and can support over 500rwhp. The lag on a T61 is so minimal. A twin setup is easier for the Z, but twins do lag more, period. But if your boosting at 5psi on a Z anyway does it really matter?
If a single was laggy why would you want it for drag racing? Do you see how that doesn't make any sense now? An aftermarket single is much more streetable then an aftermarket upgraded twins kit.
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From: long island
Originally posted by AxionF117
dude thats completely wrong, a T61 (.58a/r) will infact out spool 2 medium twins (aka the tiny turbo's on a supra) and can support over 500rwhp. The lag on a T61 is so minimal. A twin setup is easier for the Z, but twins do lag more, period. But if your boosting at 5psi on a Z anyway does it really matter?
If a single was laggy why would you want it for drag racing? Do you see how that doesn't make any sense now? An aftermarket single is much more streetable then an aftermarket upgraded twins kit.
dude thats completely wrong, a T61 (.58a/r) will infact out spool 2 medium twins (aka the tiny turbo's on a supra) and can support over 500rwhp. The lag on a T61 is so minimal. A twin setup is easier for the Z, but twins do lag more, period. But if your boosting at 5psi on a Z anyway does it really matter?
If a single was laggy why would you want it for drag racing? Do you see how that doesn't make any sense now? An aftermarket single is much more streetable then an aftermarket upgraded twins kit.
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From: Glendale, CA
Axion,
Take a look at the turbo kits for the Supra under www.intensepower.com most of the high hp (600whp+) single turbos advise that lag is quite evident. Twin turbo setups with two small turbos will give you very little lag, but their hp potential is limited, while a single large turbo has larger turbine blades and will take more time to spool up but give you more hp on the higher end. They are desirable on the drags if you are doing the 1/4 mi. you still have time to get turbo boost, and you get higher hp than the twin setup. I'm not talking 500 whp, the ones that I was alluding to are the single turbo 600-800+ whp, and from the website are recommended to have med./high lag, but make very high hp numbers, also recommended against for autocross as they take a bit of time to build up the revs before full boost occurs.
Take a look at the turbo kits for the Supra under www.intensepower.com most of the high hp (600whp+) single turbos advise that lag is quite evident. Twin turbo setups with two small turbos will give you very little lag, but their hp potential is limited, while a single large turbo has larger turbine blades and will take more time to spool up but give you more hp on the higher end. They are desirable on the drags if you are doing the 1/4 mi. you still have time to get turbo boost, and you get higher hp than the twin setup. I'm not talking 500 whp, the ones that I was alluding to are the single turbo 600-800+ whp, and from the website are recommended to have med./high lag, but make very high hp numbers, also recommended against for autocross as they take a bit of time to build up the revs before full boost occurs.
Last edited by Fanman; Dec 12, 2003 at 03:32 PM.
Actually, the most powerful supras use twin HKS 3037 ball bearing turbos. This setup produces 1000+ hp. Powerfull supras tend to be single turbo because one snail considerably less expensive than two.
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From: austin
Axion is 99% correct. The only reason many people think twins spool faster is because of the stock configuration of most factory twin systems. Those found on the FD RX-7 and Supra TT both have one small, quick spool turbo for low-RPM, and one larger, slower turbo for high-RPM. They are both ultimately limited in power.
A single turbo is better on a Supra or RX-7 because they have one exhaust side, and thus should use one manifold and one turbo.
The reason that the highest output Supras use twins (like r34racer mentions) is that making 1000+ HP out of a single turbo requires one MASSIVE single turbo, or two large twins. Fitting two large twins in an engine bay is usually easier than a huge single (I'm talking about turbos larger than T61, T88, etc).
due to the V6 configuration of the VQ35DE, a twin setup is the easiest to use, because of two separate cyl banks, and thus two exhaust manifolds. A single is possible, but it would require more room than we have in our engine bay. Note that Ultimate Racing, who was developing a single turbo kit for the Z gave up because routing the piping was just too difficult in our crowded engine bay.
A single turbo is better on a Supra or RX-7 because they have one exhaust side, and thus should use one manifold and one turbo.
The reason that the highest output Supras use twins (like r34racer mentions) is that making 1000+ HP out of a single turbo requires one MASSIVE single turbo, or two large twins. Fitting two large twins in an engine bay is usually easier than a huge single (I'm talking about turbos larger than T61, T88, etc).
due to the V6 configuration of the VQ35DE, a twin setup is the easiest to use, because of two separate cyl banks, and thus two exhaust manifolds. A single is possible, but it would require more room than we have in our engine bay. Note that Ultimate Racing, who was developing a single turbo kit for the Z gave up because routing the piping was just too difficult in our crowded engine bay.
The bottom line is weather or not a set up will be laggy or not depends on the size of the turbo(s) chosen, regardles if it's single or twin.
It is not true that laggy turbos don't make sence for drag. In fact most full drag cars run turbo's on the large laggy side if you were to run it on the street. The trade is that when it spools up it will make a lot of power on the top end and at high RPM where the large turbo will make big power. After the launch drag cars don't spend any time in low RPM's where lag will become a factor. Puredrag cars that don't see much street take advantage of anti-lag programs, NOS or line lock to get the turbo spooled at the line to compansate for the lag. On the other hand a single can spool quickly also if sized properly with the right turbine housing.
The same can be said for twins. If you put 2 properly sizes twin turbos on a car they can spool fast and have good mid-top end. Even more so than a single. Especially if they are a new design like Garrett GT full ball bearing turbos. 2 turbos may be able to flow more volume of air and could make more top end than a single in some cases. Again it depens on the size. In fact Craig Paisleys Supra was fastest for a while, not sure any more but he ran two GT3037S turbos on that car.
To give a personal story, I had a Supra and had the means to go twin ball bearing turbos or single. I wanted about 600 wheel and reasonable response since it was my only car and I drove on the street. The twins (GT2835) although ball bearing were sized for top end. The power would come on in a more linear fashion and you would get boost sooner in the RPM range than the single I was looking at, but the single T04R I was considering peaked at full boost sooner than the twins. The single had a bit more of a spikey power band also. The boost was all at once. I ended up going with the single because it was simpler (less parts to break) and was less expensive. It had good response after I selected a housing that gave me decent low end but didn't choke the the turbine keeping me from making the 600 I wanted.
Lastly, someone mentioned this already but it could just be a matter of packaging. On a Supra with an inline 6 it's easy to go single or twin. On a VQ35 "V" engine twins are easier to package than a single with the amount of space given. There is not much space unless u remove a bunch of stuff like that Option magazine car.
The best advice I guess I can give is decide how much peak power you want to make, how much boost you will realistically run (gas and tuning play a big role) and how much lag you think you can deal with. Then have someone good at sizing turbos help you pick a package that suits your needs! Sorry for the long post.
Later
It is not true that laggy turbos don't make sence for drag. In fact most full drag cars run turbo's on the large laggy side if you were to run it on the street. The trade is that when it spools up it will make a lot of power on the top end and at high RPM where the large turbo will make big power. After the launch drag cars don't spend any time in low RPM's where lag will become a factor. Puredrag cars that don't see much street take advantage of anti-lag programs, NOS or line lock to get the turbo spooled at the line to compansate for the lag. On the other hand a single can spool quickly also if sized properly with the right turbine housing.
The same can be said for twins. If you put 2 properly sizes twin turbos on a car they can spool fast and have good mid-top end. Even more so than a single. Especially if they are a new design like Garrett GT full ball bearing turbos. 2 turbos may be able to flow more volume of air and could make more top end than a single in some cases. Again it depens on the size. In fact Craig Paisleys Supra was fastest for a while, not sure any more but he ran two GT3037S turbos on that car.
To give a personal story, I had a Supra and had the means to go twin ball bearing turbos or single. I wanted about 600 wheel and reasonable response since it was my only car and I drove on the street. The twins (GT2835) although ball bearing were sized for top end. The power would come on in a more linear fashion and you would get boost sooner in the RPM range than the single I was looking at, but the single T04R I was considering peaked at full boost sooner than the twins. The single had a bit more of a spikey power band also. The boost was all at once. I ended up going with the single because it was simpler (less parts to break) and was less expensive. It had good response after I selected a housing that gave me decent low end but didn't choke the the turbine keeping me from making the 600 I wanted.
Lastly, someone mentioned this already but it could just be a matter of packaging. On a Supra with an inline 6 it's easy to go single or twin. On a VQ35 "V" engine twins are easier to package than a single with the amount of space given. There is not much space unless u remove a bunch of stuff like that Option magazine car.
The best advice I guess I can give is decide how much peak power you want to make, how much boost you will realistically run (gas and tuning play a big role) and how much lag you think you can deal with. Then have someone good at sizing turbos help you pick a package that suits your needs! Sorry for the long post.
Later
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From: San Diego, CA (From Sacto)
OK, just to make things a little easier for you guys--Lets put it this way, twin turbos are much easier to set up in the engine bay, so well basically all go with the TT. If we all agree with that, then we can move onto which TT is the best heh
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From: Buckeye country
To arbitrarily say TT or ST lags more or less is inane... lag and max power depend entierly on the indavidual car.... IF a supra is running 800+ hp it is alos mostlikely on a built 8:1 comp motor, of course it will lag, it doesnt take a genious to figure that out.....
As far as room, both set ups have their issues with pipes and space... neither one is p[aticularly easy to plumb unless designed that way stock.
Let's all stay away form broad blanket staetments can we, and on the FD, MKIV, and RB26DETT, the sequential turbos are dientical, none is smaller than the other.....
As far as room, both set ups have their issues with pipes and space... neither one is p[aticularly easy to plumb unless designed that way stock.
Let's all stay away form broad blanket staetments can we, and on the FD, MKIV, and RB26DETT, the sequential turbos are dientical, none is smaller than the other.....
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From: dallas
Originally posted by Gabe35Coupe
The bottom line is weather or not a set up will be laggy or not depends on the size of the turbo(s) chosen, regardles if it's single or twin.
It is not true that laggy turbos don't make sence for drag. In fact most full drag cars run turbo's on the large laggy side if you were to run it on the street. The trade is that when it spools up it will make a lot of power on the top end and at high RPM where the large turbo will make big power. After the launch drag cars don't spend any time in low RPM's where lag will become a factor. Puredrag cars that don't see much street take advantage of anti-lag programs, NOS or line lock to get the turbo spooled at the line to compansate for the lag. On the other hand a single can spool quickly also if sized properly with the right turbine housing.
The same can be said for twins. If you put 2 properly sizes twin turbos on a car they can spool fast and have good mid-top end. Even more so than a single. Especially if they are a new design like Garrett GT full ball bearing turbos. 2 turbos may be able to flow more volume of air and could make more top end than a single in some cases. Again it depens on the size. In fact Craig Paisleys Supra was fastest for a while, not sure any more but he ran two GT3037S turbos on that car.
To give a personal story, I had a Supra and had the means to go twin ball bearing turbos or single. I wanted about 600 wheel and reasonable response since it was my only car and I drove on the street. The twins (GT2835) although ball bearing were sized for top end. The power would come on in a more linear fashion and you would get boost sooner in the RPM range than the single I was looking at, but the single T04R I was considering peaked at full boost sooner than the twins. The single had a bit more of a spikey power band also. The boost was all at once. I ended up going with the single because it was simpler (less parts to break) and was less expensive. It had good response after I selected a housing that gave me decent low end but didn't choke the the turbine keeping me from making the 600 I wanted.
Lastly, someone mentioned this already but it could just be a matter of packaging. On a Supra with an inline 6 it's easy to go single or twin. On a VQ35 "V" engine twins are easier to package than a single with the amount of space given. There is not much space unless u remove a bunch of stuff like that Option magazine car.
The best advice I guess I can give is decide how much peak power you want to make, how much boost you will realistically run (gas and tuning play a big role) and how much lag you think you can deal with. Then have someone good at sizing turbos help you pick a package that suits your needs! Sorry for the long post.
Later
The bottom line is weather or not a set up will be laggy or not depends on the size of the turbo(s) chosen, regardles if it's single or twin.
It is not true that laggy turbos don't make sence for drag. In fact most full drag cars run turbo's on the large laggy side if you were to run it on the street. The trade is that when it spools up it will make a lot of power on the top end and at high RPM where the large turbo will make big power. After the launch drag cars don't spend any time in low RPM's where lag will become a factor. Puredrag cars that don't see much street take advantage of anti-lag programs, NOS or line lock to get the turbo spooled at the line to compansate for the lag. On the other hand a single can spool quickly also if sized properly with the right turbine housing.
The same can be said for twins. If you put 2 properly sizes twin turbos on a car they can spool fast and have good mid-top end. Even more so than a single. Especially if they are a new design like Garrett GT full ball bearing turbos. 2 turbos may be able to flow more volume of air and could make more top end than a single in some cases. Again it depens on the size. In fact Craig Paisleys Supra was fastest for a while, not sure any more but he ran two GT3037S turbos on that car.
To give a personal story, I had a Supra and had the means to go twin ball bearing turbos or single. I wanted about 600 wheel and reasonable response since it was my only car and I drove on the street. The twins (GT2835) although ball bearing were sized for top end. The power would come on in a more linear fashion and you would get boost sooner in the RPM range than the single I was looking at, but the single T04R I was considering peaked at full boost sooner than the twins. The single had a bit more of a spikey power band also. The boost was all at once. I ended up going with the single because it was simpler (less parts to break) and was less expensive. It had good response after I selected a housing that gave me decent low end but didn't choke the the turbine keeping me from making the 600 I wanted.
Lastly, someone mentioned this already but it could just be a matter of packaging. On a Supra with an inline 6 it's easy to go single or twin. On a VQ35 "V" engine twins are easier to package than a single with the amount of space given. There is not much space unless u remove a bunch of stuff like that Option magazine car.
The best advice I guess I can give is decide how much peak power you want to make, how much boost you will realistically run (gas and tuning play a big role) and how much lag you think you can deal with. Then have someone good at sizing turbos help you pick a package that suits your needs! Sorry for the long post.
Later
Originally posted by AxionF117
dude thats completely wrong, a T61 (.58a/r) will infact out spool 2 medium twins (aka the tiny turbo's on a supra) and can support over 500rwhp. The lag on a T61 is so minimal. A twin setup is easier for the Z, but twins do lag more, period. But if your boosting at 5psi on a Z anyway does it really matter?
If a single was laggy why would you want it for drag racing? Do you see how that doesn't make any sense now? An aftermarket single is much more streetable then an aftermarket upgraded twins kit.
dude thats completely wrong, a T61 (.58a/r) will infact out spool 2 medium twins (aka the tiny turbo's on a supra) and can support over 500rwhp. The lag on a T61 is so minimal. A twin setup is easier for the Z, but twins do lag more, period. But if your boosting at 5psi on a Z anyway does it really matter?
If a single was laggy why would you want it for drag racing? Do you see how that doesn't make any sense now? An aftermarket single is much more streetable then an aftermarket upgraded twins kit.
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From: Buckeye country
The lag on a T61 is so minimal. A twin setup is easier for the Z, but twins do lag more, period.
If a T51 has "moderate lag" one can only assume that a T61 will have equivalent if not more lag.
Then we look at audis Bi turbo setups, peak boost by 2100 rpm.... and partial boost my 1500 or there abouts with twins.
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From: Buckeye country
I didnt realize,
http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbul...ad.php?t=90169
This forums predicts (dont know if they have DONE IT) a 5K spool on a T51R in a MKIV, that is quite a bit o lag!
seeing as the difference in the power potential between the two is minimal (roughly 40whp) so i would think spool would still be simmialr.
Interesting stuff, i still think if you get a pro to look at a map and size it for when you WANT it to spool OR for the max poser you want ot acheive, neither single or twins will show a consistent advantage or a large difference in spooling for simmilar WHP....
http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbul...ad.php?t=90169
This forums predicts (dont know if they have DONE IT) a 5K spool on a T51R in a MKIV, that is quite a bit o lag!
seeing as the difference in the power potential between the two is minimal (roughly 40whp) so i would think spool would still be simmialr.
Interesting stuff, i still think if you get a pro to look at a map and size it for when you WANT it to spool OR for the max poser you want ot acheive, neither single or twins will show a consistent advantage or a large difference in spooling for simmilar WHP....
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