12SecZ

Some here want to turn this into a Max thread. Not gonna happen, sorry. There are facts about Jesses's original "treatise" that are incorrect; like it or not it's a fact. FACT. Bottom line.

One thread is saying how dumb it is to raise the rev limiter the other thread says it is ok. One thread says the kit is good the other says it has isssues. Round and round we go dancing around the fact that the kit we were all sold does not work in stock form you will detonate and raising the rev limitier increases the risk of detonation especially if you don't address the timing. I changed the timing then raised the rev limiter as a buffer Bonz is doing it in reverse and this is correct?. Whatever. Like I said, you do your thing it's no skin off my back I don't drive your cars I drive mine. Now just talk facts and stop personalizing everything geez.


"Arguing with you is like banging your head against the wall."

You see, that's the whole point, you are arguing you just admitted it, meanwhile I am not am repeatedly ask you to stop doing so.

12SecZ

BTW, Thanks for the links Bonz I never got to see those videos! SWEET! As you know I took a leave of absense

Watching the vids now for the first time, sweet!

So I read like 2 pages so far. What did you finalize on the dyno? I do not want to come accross as picking on you, I never saw those posts b4. My stance is that the timing needs to be fixed or more engine may go and hopefully ATI is addressing that. I hope that one sentence can be read and understtod amist all the minutia if anything else I post I stand by that and that my kit and Zed's kit runs good. Yours runs good too. Great. So everyone should be happy and there shouldn't even be a need for all of this talk we should all be cruising around at WOT w/o fear, but we are not, well I am but allot of people are not

Are right, take care and please stop with the Max Max Max stuff and let's focus on how fast our cars are and how smart we were for buying the Z ok?

P.S. Edit add,

Watched all videos, on the freeway one you are in 4th right? How fast are you going and what is your rpm's?

On the hood up one I hear belt squeel, did that go away, I don't have it.

elektrik_juggernaut

Okay guys......please allow me this moment to summarize, just so i can guage whether or not we're all on the same page:

1) The ATI 100% Complete Kit is flawed.....it ignores dangerous timing issues.

2) There two ways to correct this flaw:
a) the J & S
b) the Technosquare reflash

3) There are downsides to both:
a) the J&S still retains all of the tandem fuel supply hardware, including the FMU, which per slider, still goes from rich to lean for a scalar defined range of boost
b) the TS reflash eliminates the tandem fuel supply hardware and runs everything through the stock fuel system with the exception of larger injectors, it's downside being that a reflash may be necessary when further car modifications are made.

4) The current debate is that there is a theory that the TS reflash may not adjust itself enough for varying weather conditions. The owners of the TS reflash have stated that it does adjust itself, and maintains the same AF that TS sets their cars up for. We currently lack the hard datalogged number to support that the TS does not do what it's supposed to do. There are offers on the table to allow those skeptical of the TS, to test it out. GaryK is too far from any of these sites to do this testing. Jesse has not caught up to thread yet, and has yet to let us know whether or not he would like to take the opportunity to either prove, or disprove his theory.

12SecZ

I heard mention of someone actually buying Jesse's plane ticket to fly to Chicago and use that consult 2. Seriously, just to settle this. :-)

GaryK

EJ-
Overall, that's pretty good summary. A couple things though. On point 1, I still don't necessarily want to say the kit is flawed and that they totally ignored the timing. Based on their testing, they did not feel there would be a problem, and some people may never have a problem. But it is obviously on the edge, and it would be wise to address the timing. If you add timing control to yours and it solves your problem, that would be grounds for considering the kit flawed And on point 3, I think there are more pros and cons to both that come into play. But this is all just IMO.

Max-
Quit crying. When you bring false information to the table, expect to be called out. You ask me to leave you alone, I ask you to stop posting crap that isn't logical and only stirs things up. Now I have a serious question. What in Jesse's original "treatise" can you say is without a doubt incorrect, and tell me why that is the case. I seriously want to know the logic behind it, not "because this guy said so". Give me technical information, please, please, please. And before you assume I'm arguing or taking a stance...realize that I'm asking a question. If they're controlling fuel and timing in such a way that the proposed issues really aren't issues, I'm all ears.

Dr Bonz

iTrader: (1)

Max: I don't really remember what gear I was in in that video but I was only going about 100. I didn't want to tempt the speeding ticket gods. I was at WOT though. The belt squeal is SIGNIFICANTLY better now. I have changed the Procharger oil twice and the entire kit seems to be much quieter.

EJ: I agree with your assessment above except for one thing. Why should Jesse, Gary, or ANYBODY have to get the datalogged numbers for the TS reflash? Shouldn't TS explain this to US THE BUYERS? You have hit ATI hard for not being up front with us. How about TS? Shouldn't they be on this board explaining exactly what their reflash does? Obviously they aren't going to give us any propriatory information but what would be wrong with them telling us what we need to know?

Dr Bonz

iTrader: (1)

A question for you FI gurus. Would there be any advantage to doing BOTH of the mods being discussed? I know it would be pricey but what about the TS reflash, nix the ATI FMU, get bigger injectors, AND get the J&S.

elektrik_juggernaut

I think if anybody is going to propose theories about the TS reflash, they should be prepared to back those theories up with hard data

As far as my campaign against ATI, there was data that was acquired....the 28 degrees BTDC @ 6500 rpms.......i researched this data, and found out that it was indeed legit.....ATI themselves sheepishly confirmed those numbers to me via email.....there was a need to do this research, because it appeared that an unacceptable number of engines were going "BOOM", yet the true cause was not discernable through simple AF readings

If there is one person, just one, that has problems with their TS reflashed Procharged Z, then i will listen to the theories.......i have not heard anything negative from any of the TS/Procharged Z's.......so to me, these theories are about problems that don't exist

350Z-RED

2003z what kinda of wing is that looks good, can you post some pics

GaryK

Yes, there would be some advantage to be had, but you'd have to choose how you want to use the J&S. Personally, the J&S is a must have no matter what other equipment I'm running. Its a very well proven measure against detonation on a multitude of cars.

The question still remains, can the stock ecu when reprogrammed properly sense the mass flow of air when boosting? If so, you could use the J&S simply as a knock detector and compensator, which I think is an invaluable feature anyway. Otherwise, you'd probably be better off to let the J&S do all the timing control. If someone really wanted to get busy on the dyno, they could actually do a combination of things to get the timing set to the threshold of no knock, which will usually give you the most power throughout the hp curve while still being safe and having the J&S there to compensate when/if knock is detected.

GaryK

EJ, that's good but you are basing your decision on a very small sample size. Theories are just things that could be, but aren't necessarily, true...but both sides of the argument are just that, theories. Nobody here knows all the facts yet. All the potential issues truly are possibilities at this point. On the other hand I know, as do others, what exactly the J&S does. And it does exactly what we need the worst right now, without a doubt.

All I'm really saying is that right now, if the choice is between one or the other and you're open to idea that there could be some issues with the TS flash only...the better choice IMHO is the J&S. But in order to come to that point, I guess you have to accept that the theories in question could be true.

elektrik_juggernaut

we are, in fact, both using the same sample size......and at that, using the largest sample size possible at this point in time......as i said before, i believe that both solutions are good ones.......i'll be watching to see how the J&S's go.......and i'll be watching to see how the TS's go.......i expect both of these to return better results than the FMU on its own ever did.........currently i'm leaning towards the TS solution.......i just feel that keeping the ATI's tandem fuel system is just asking for trouble in the future, and greatly prefer running everything through the stock system........however, i do believe the J&S to be an excellent solution to the other possiblities that can happen in an aftermarket FI system

Chebosto

iTrader: (43)

I think when it comes to the ECU, people are scared because its something they can't physically see and comprehend what is changed, thats why people like Jesse still have doubts that it actually does anything. That's clearly understandable- but when a solution does present itself, such as in this case, the TechnoSquare reflash to correct ATI's fuel management problem, i would think people would cheer and/or at least think that its a safer solution to other potential methods.

It's not 'blind faith' that this ECU works. Its because Tadashi and crew at Technosquare with the help of engineers at Techtom Japan have the engineering know-how to fix problems and create a solution. Not all ECU reflashes are the same. that's a correct statement. the ECU flash you get from Technosquare i guarantee you will be more indepth than you will ever get from any other company, simply due to the fact that Tadashi is so familiar with the nissan ECU fuel/timing maps from years and years of experience he know exactly what to do in each of the THREE maps. It's not blind faith. its proven fact. there are more 100+ ECU reflashed owners out there with the newer ECUs that are found in the G35Coupe, G35sedan, and 350Z world (and altima, maxima etc)....

I've been saying this from the Very beginning. since like January of this year: TechnoSquare's ECU technology is simply the best. That's why people WANT to travel three states to get this ecu done- its to get the car tuned the right way-

Technosquare doesnt and shouldnt have to relinquish their R&D data to appease a simple dispute of what their ecu does. its called 6 months of development with my car and 100+ dyno pulls to get the hard data points and tuning aspects of the Zee. I've already explained FAR enough of what the ECU does in probably a few HUNDRED posts i have under my name- What exactly are you looking for? a magic key? some spell? The ECU works and its been race proven time and time again. this isnt a stupid 20ohm resistor in a black box with wires wrapped in a sprial to get a E-field.

--Cheston

GaryK

So there are that many running a TS tuned ecu with forced induction on the 350z or similar? I did not know that...

So at what point does the MAF on the 350z max out?


On edit:
Ok, I've searched and I can't find much information from you or anyone else on the TS forced induction tuning. What they do for N/A applications means nothing to me, F/I cars are putting down a lot more power than N/A. Its pretty simple really, what is the maximum mass flow the stock MAF and ecu can recognize? If its more than any of us will get with our current setups then I agree that the stock ecu can do a good job when properly tuned. There has to be a limit with the MAF...

Dr Bonz

iTrader: (1)

What does it do to the timing?

hfm

iTrader: (1)

I don't think I've ever been much of a TS fan. And, I'm patiently waiting to see what JWT develops. I'm sure I don't need to say this but, having met Cheston, I vouch for his comments.

More importantly, I had an opportunity to watch dyno runs of Zs with and without the TS ECU. My Z started from a lean 15 a/f ratio at 3k rpm and progressively became richer to 12.5 a/f ratio at 6.5k rpm. Most cars had the same thing occur. I'm just glad our Zs go leaner to richer...smart stock ECU. Not as much power but no kaboom!

On the other hand, a Z with the TS ECU had a flatline a/f ratio, from memory at 12.5 throughout the RPM range. It was clear, the ECU was doing something. I don't know if the ECU was advancing or retarding timing or adding or subtracting more fuel, but whatever the case maybe, it maintained the a/f mixture constant.

I believe a stock ECU will advance or retard timing by 15 degrees and have no idea what the TS ECU will do or if it is sufficient for FI. But, I will say that it can't hurt to have another failsafe to control timing.

elektrik_juggernaut

Cheston, even if the MAF gets maxed out in an FI application, will the feedback loop that looks at the O2 sensors continue to add fuel until the O2 sensors see what they were mapped to see?

12SecZ

I think that some of the answers may reside in what the latest year 300ZX TT does. Just my 2 cents. It doesn't max out even with a TT. My offer for data logging on my car stands if it helps anyone. I also will be at TS again in January for another flash if anyone is interested.

Chebosto

iTrader: (43)

Bonz-
the technos ECU is retarding timing at 6k+ rpms when you get the FI program-

everyone else:
Anytime there is heavy load on the car (WOT), the ECU will automatically switch to open loop configuration and will not register ANY o2 readings and go directly off what the MAF numbers and what is program into the ECU. Say you're shifting gears while you're boosting.. the ECU has a built in timer and a delay is set into the program- and WONT go back into the closed loop program for a few seconds. so you're still in the open loop after you switch gears. of the testing we've done on the Zee, we have not maxed out the MAF (and we've taken the car up to 8psi...)

the ECU mappings are HUGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGEEE.
There are different areas on that map to register for load and rpm. the ECU doesn't need to have an additional boost map. it will read the same area of the table wheather it's turbo or n/a (i.e. per load there is X fuel....).

Because once you go WOT, it will read a certain spot in the fuel / timing map, it's at that exact point that is changed on the ECU. thats why we have a boost and NA programs.. we also know the values based on the boosted cars that come in, since we know how much air that unit is producting at rpm and go from there to get the numbers on the maps-
There are 3 of these maps for the ECU to select- and each one is slightly varying based on load, octane it senses, etc.

i think jesse is wrong when stating that a reflashed ECU and boost applications is asking for trouble- imho its' alot better than some stupid slide rule jerry-rigged aparatus.
the ECU is the only way you can actively retard timing throughout the rpm band when necessary- and have the fuel/air to go with it.

elektrik_juggernaut

Thanks Cheston-
Very valuable info.....i knew there were other FI kits that were producing higher than 7psi successfully.......and i have yet to see an FI kit that talks about it being necessary to replace the MAF