mcduck

Okay folks... I need some help here. We finally dynoed my car with all mods today and the final numbers weren't pretty. Sorry there are no scans for me to post. You'll just have to believe me on the numbers... and you should since I'm not here bragging about them.

Our baseline numbers for comparison were
244.8 rwhp
237.1 ftlbs torque
These numbers were attained with only a single mod... the Borla TD exhaust.

To this, we have added
AEM CAI,
Crawford Plenum,
Nismo Cams,
Borla Headers,
and Crawford Hi Flow Cats a few weeks ago
Finally a Technosquare ECU was added this week.

With all this in addition the Borla TD, the car turned these max numbers...
252.1 rwhp
235.2 ftlbs torque

What's worse is that there appears to be no larger gain anywhere in the powerband, it's a pretty consistent low gain of 8-10rwhp

WTF?????

Something is definitely not adding up here. Only an 8hp gain from all those mods???? and torque dropping by 2??????

This makes no sense at all... especially considering I can basically run dead even up with my buddy's brand new Mach1 up to about 80 where I start to pull away from him.

Also, in a run against another 350Z (with just a Borla TD), my car pulled side-by-side with his, but with my car in 4th gear and his in 3rd. ie. I was pulling as hard in 4th at 70mph as he was in 3rd at 70mph.

Both of the comparisons above were done after all the mechanical mods, but prior to the TechnoSquare ECU.

Add to the puzzle that everyone else here who has done the same mods as me is pulling in the neighborhood of 270-280rwhp.

and as a side note, a stock 996 Porsche was on the dyno shortly after me and pulled about 20rwhp less than me.


Does anyone have any idea on what's going on?

Our best guess at this point is that the timing is not mapped right for my mods, but I though the TS ECU was supposed to do that. We can definitely see the A/F mix is set correctly because it is at 12.5 all the way through the powerband

- Could there be a problem with the TS ECU mapping?

- With the NISMO Cams, we had to adjust the timing 2-3 degrees prior to the ECU upgrade. Does this need to be done again now that it has been flashed?

- I might be inclined to say the dyno is reading low, but my buddy with the Mach1 pulled 275rwhp which is right at average for those cars.

- Other ideas?

I'm scratching my head here... I can tell the car is stronger by the way it feels when I drive it. Some would say "don't sweat the numbers if you know it is faster".

However, I'm wondering if I'm getting base+X power when I should be getting base+X+X power. In other words, at the butt dyno, should I be feeling even more power than I am because something is not adding up here?

I probably won't respond much the next 2-3 days as I will be out of town, but would appreciate any constructive thoughts you have because I'm bit perplexed.

I'm hoping we can diagnose where the problem is, correct it, and redyno in a couple weeks.

GY-Z

seems most likely to me ecu is da problem

spazpilot

iTrader: (2)

Who installed your cams? check to see if your timing was on the numbers. On the other hand the dyno you were on might not be calibrated right. Are you running on the lean side of the fuel curve? The question you should ask yourself is does it feel faster. If yes I wouldn't worry about it

mcduck

Not in question... I was there, I know it was done right as specified by the shop manuals. In fact, the parts are marked in such a fashion it would you'd have to be very, very negligent to not get them in right.

This thought had occurred to me, but it is the same dyno I turned 244 on with only the Borla TD. Also, the Mach 1 came in at 275rwhp (avg for that car) and an M5 turned 325rwhp (avg for that car or so I'm told)

A/F is around 12.5 across the entire run. That is correct for NA is it not?

Yes, it does feel faster... the reason I'm worried about it is should it feel even faster than it does now.


BTW, the guy who ran me in his Z down the highway (him in 3rd, me in 4th) was there today and turned just under 240rwhp with only the Borla TD and Crawford HiFlow cats. So by way of comparison, the CAI, cams, headers, plenum, and UR Pulleys are only putting me 12rwhp above him according to the dyno.

My concern is not the absolute number... it is what I should be seeing in horsepower change over the baseline run with only the Borla TD. It should be more... even using conservative gain numbers for the components. Something is not right and I need some more ideas on what it might be.

Right now our key suspect is the ECU and/or the timing settings.

hfm

iTrader: (1)

244 to start is high but is explained by the TD Borla. In my opinion, the AEM will add very little if anything. The Crawford plenum in the So. Cal. dyno was not significant. The Nismo cams, well that should be 15 hp but B18voodoo didn't show much gain either. The cams didn't do much until they were complimented by hi flowcats. The difference was shown betweend B18's and Jeff@Performance's dynos.

Borla headers, add 2-3 hp. Crawford hiflow cats, I know nothing about these and wont comment. TQ ECU, wont add anything but will make the a/f mixture right.

In short, yes your dyno is low, I'd expect 260+ rwhp. But, it's not far off from what I would expect or seen. Sorry I don't have better news mcduck. But, it seems about right.

Ultimateone

Damn this is definitely strange, was there a drastic change in the temp. from the time then(dynoing) and now. Hmm I would save up some cash again and do another dyno after a couple days and see what happens, your car should at least have 265+ IMO

hfm

iTrader: (1)

I forgot to say, Mcduck, when you have a moment, check out the Southern California dynos. You'll find yourself right there with the rest of us. In my opinion, when we deal with currently available n/a modifications, we will max out at 260 to 270 rwhp. Stock is about 238-240 rwhp and anything after that is gravy.

If you add cams, lightweight crank shaft, exhaust, intake, headers, testpipes, plenum or whatever else, you will not see past 270...unless you're on some silly Mustang dyno that says you're 300+ rwhp when that's clearly not right.

If you're concerned, check Jeff's dyno. He's got everything but the kitchen sink as far a n/a mods. He's with a dealership, he's not on some funky dyno, and he's eeking 265s.

And, since we're on the subject, that's what really make me laugh when some vendor claims gigantic gains when I've never seen a n/a mod on real dynos do anything more than 260s.

mcduck

Sorry... I don't agree. I did my homework before making upgrades. Others with this same package are hitting 270ish and up. I can understand being slightly lower than average, but we're talking 20 horsepower or more.

Umm... I do have high flow cats.

More importantly, others have shown dyno gains on all the parts for which you are saying show none are typically... except for maybe the CAI which I agree probably adds 1-2hp if you're lucky. Low estimates based on average gains seen here....
CAI........ 1 hp?
Plenum.... 7 hp (this would be waaay below average)
Cams...... 10 hp (also very conservative)
Borla Headers... 2-3hp
HiFlow cats.... 2-3hp

At a bare minimum, I should be seeing a 22hp gain, which should put me over 266rwhp. More importantly, I should be seeing more than the sum of the parts because the entire air-fuel/exhaust breathing route has been improved... if there was a bottleneck somewhere... say I replaced everything but the cats... I could see where minimum gains would be the best I could hope for. But many things have been optimized. The gains should be higher.

Again, I'm not interested in "that's the best you can expect" opinions, hfm... because that doesn't add up to the work that has been done. So... if you have some ideas on where I should look for possible corrections, great. If you have no constructive advice to offer, please refrain from comment.

There was a difference, but the runs are SAE corrected so that difference should be factored out, or at the very least minimized. Besides, it was cooler today. So if anything, the runs should have been higher not lower. More importantly, Morris pulled close to 240rwhp with only Borla TD and Crawford Cats.... just 12hp less than me. I don't think it's the temperature

hfm

iTrader: (1)

Hang on a sec, let me do a search.

hfm

iTrader: (1)

https://my350z.com/forum/showthread....ht=so+cal+dyno

Dyno Results
Set up
Weather was about 62 degrees clear and sunny, Crispy, rained the night before. Dyno jet infloor dyno. dB readings were taken from about 15ft to rear 20 degree off passenger side axis.

Jeff@ Preformance Nissian 1200mi
Nismo CAI.Cams,Headers, Exhaust,Random Tech Cats &Tilton flywheel and lots of Preformance stickers.

265.2 HP 243.7 tq 112 dB
258.2 Hp 238.3 Tq

Zxsaint 15,000 mi
Borla exhaust, UR Pulleys, AEM intake

257.1 Hp 248.2 TQ 102dB
254.0 Hp 244.0 TQ

350Z4Steve 11,000 mi
Borla Dual Exhaust,JWT Pop Charger,Crawford Plenum, Kaaz LSD //// corrected BORLA HEADER, LBMS HI FLO CATS, anything else we weren't told about?

256.? HP 243.2 tq 105db
254.8 Hp 241.? tq

HFM 27.000 mi
JWT Popcharger, LBMS testpipesw/resonators,Borla Dual Exhaust ,JWT Flywheel

255.5 Hp 243.2 Tq 105dB
254.1 HP 243.1 Tq

B18bvudoo 30,000 mi
Nismo cams,header,Cai,,flywheel,Exhaust ,s-tune and sways

237 hp 109 dB
251 hp

Those are real world dyno numbers. If 287 is stock crank hp, which some people including downshift will say after 3 motors is wrong, then after my mods, I've gained 13 hp assuming 17% drivetrain loss. Check the numbers, and let me know what you think.

Numbers are inflated by manufacturers....

___DJK___

iTrader: (2)

Wow, was your baseline done on the same dyno? It has to be dissapointing spending thousands of dollars to see such a small increase. Hopefully something isnt tuned right and you can get the HP you deserve out of those parts.

FLY BY Z

After you installed the TS flash, did you perform the ECU reset procedure? Stupid question, I know. Just thought I'd ask.

Xeinth

Ya looks like your car is roughly the same as Jeffs. He has Nismo headers (slightly better than borla) and a flywheel vs your plenum and TS ECU as the only differences. They should about be a wash.

He was averaging 262... so you maybe missing a few HP which could be dyno or SAE related.

Whats amazing is that ZxSaint did only 7 HP less than Jeff with only exhaust, CAI and pulleys.

Ouch. Hello FI.

X

MY350Z.COM

iTrader: (2)

what makes you think that?

mcduck

As I said, if you have no constructive advice, please do not clutter my thread. Looking at the above....

Jeff@Performance... close to the same set up... 265rwhp... I'd be happy with that.

Zxsaint... no cams... no headers... no cats... no plenum... how is this setup even remotely similar to mine?????

350Z4Steve... no cams... otherwise similar... so I should be around his 256hp + what the cams should be giving me... that is greater than 252 the last time I checked...

HFM (yours)... again... no cams... no headers... no cats... no plenum... do you even understand what these parts do?

B18bvudoo.... no plenum... no cats... do we see a trend?

With the exception of Jeff's car, none of these are equitable to what I have on my car.

As for your car... did you do a baseline dyno? it sounds like 13hp is a guess on your part. Maybe you had 13hp gain... maybe it was 20hp... or only 6hp. In my case, I have a baseline with the Borla only showing 244rwhp. I'm sure the mods I have made should be adding more than 8hp... the trick will be identifying why they are not.

Xeinth

McDuck,

Notice Jeff's lowest run was only 3HP above yours. I mean, thats well within the range of error. On a single dyno the error is +/- 3HP at least, and between to seperate dyno's its a hell of a lot more. How many pulls did you do?

X

mcduck

I was told this was done correctly and have no reason to doubt the shop who did the work. In fact, he was there when we dynoed and was more upset at the final numbers than me.

Xeinth... I pretty much agree... it should be about a wash. My expectation was that the plenum would pull a few more hp than the flywheel does (based on others verified dyno gains on this website).

I suppose we could try another dyno in town to see if the numbers are very far off, but that defeats the purpose of always using the same dyno. Also, it won't explain why Morris was pulling only 12 hp less with only the Borla TD and cats.

That was our question to Vic... we immediately suspected that as the week link (or possibly) the timing, but the reason I'm here baring my poor dynoes to the forum is to see if it may be something else. We're going to once over the electronics, but I'm trying to get some other ideas in the meantime.

mcduck

four runs and 252 was the highest. They ranged from 244 (same as my Borla only number) to 252.

Damn... I'm really wishing I had 1/4-miled it before mods so I could run 1/4 now and see the time gain. I suppose I could see what time I turn and compare it to average runs for stock Zs. At least that would quickly point to whether its the dyno or not.

Anyone know how quick a Mach1 is in the 1/4-mile. Since I just start to pull ahead of my friend's Mach1 around 80-85, I'm guessing my car would be slightly quicker in the 1/4-mile. Maybe that will tell me something. The next step would be to see if I still pull on him that way since we added the ECU flash.

FLY BY Z

You should run a very low 13 in the 1/4 if you pulled a Mach 1. They run low 13's. Something is awry with the dyno numbers. I would dyno it somewhere else and if the results are different, you should get your money back from the first one. I mean, if one dynoed 275 after you, and you pulled on one, there is very little chance you have less power than 275. They are not heavier than a Z.

Xeinth

But how could a dyno mess up ONLY on his car, 4 times! If the other cars were getting OK numbers, it would follow his are reasonabley accurate.

X