Was gonna install my grounding kit today..but "NO!" they said...
02-02-2004, 06:04 PM
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My 2c on electricity, magnetics & noise
OK, let's get to the heart of the matter. I'm a EE. I've been designing electronic systems and enclosures for quite some time.
I will try give you answers based my experiences and respond to the points made so far in this thread.
If you don't want to read all that go to the end for a summary, it's rather lengthy(sorry).
My responses are in bold post quotes are in italic.
Sorry I didn't use the post reference feature - I typed the majority of this in a word processor.
1st post:
They pointed out that first, the cables are too thick(40's? got them from z327) and it will create too much magnetic field.
Thick is good - reduces impedance - reduces resistance => less voltage drop for any current flowing through the wire. The bad part of heavier wire is it usually increases inductance and capacitance which can have negative impacts on the current source.
Then they said ends are connected to the engine itself, may effect the spark plug,
This is true - the return path for the plug is the engine block - see previous point - this however is a good thing. Lower impedance = less loss to resistance = more voltage available to the spark plug.
they should be connected to the radiator.
HUH? - no need for current to be flowing there unless the fan is grounded through it, can't imagine that's the case.
And, some of the ends are connected to the firewall,
OK, So...
which on the other side is full of electronics and computer chips,
Again, see the 1st point.
magnetic field there is def. not a good thing.
Not sure why they would specifically say this about this area only - but see the next point.
Last, they said some parts of the car is suppose to be blocked off from power and magnetic, connecting the grounding kit will let power and magnetic field running thru the car/engine bay which may actually harm the electronic devices. ...
Absolutely true, items like the ECU, and others, are totally enclosed in metal creating a Faraday Cage shield protecting them from outside fields, electrical(EMI) and magnetic. If these enclosures are not grounded or more specifically, kept from being isolated, then the enclosure can act like an antenna and pass the fields through via radiating them back inside the case.
Nissan did not do this, they are attached to the chassis allowing the Faraday Cage to do its job.
It will not gain horse power and it gives chances to mess up your electronic or chances to have power leak with this many outlets...
Horse power gain could be questionable but not unlikely. The potential for systems to work more efficiently due to lower noise, lower voltage drops, reduction of potential ground loop sources could allow the system to produce additional hp. This is an area best proven through empirical data and dyno charts. As for messing up the electronics - not likely. And as for power leaks - HUH? That's too technical a term for me to go into here - I'm speaking of leakage current of electronics - I'm not sure to what they are referring.
Another post:
Magnetic Field, how is it going to create a magnetic field? I could be wrong, but I've never heard of a ground wire creating a magnetic field.
Any current passing through a wire creates both an electrical and magnetic field. A wire by itself no. Any wire capable of this on its own would be called a magnet and most likely not called a wire since it would be a relatively poor conductor.
Another post:
There is no way that a ground can produce any magnetic field.
This is true as long as no current is flowing. See previous, ground loop.
To get a magnet in an electrical system require electrical current (which the ground has zero).
True. To create an electromagnet current has to flow through a conductor wrapped around a ferrous material.
Even if there was a magnetic field, it wouldn't even harm your engine. The engine is mostly aluminum and magnets don't have any effect on them (or very little) If a magnetic field is that strong to cause damage to your engine, your ecu would be fried by that point. Even in that case...
Cant really see how it would effect your engine - wouldn't want to be near a magnetic field that could.
Another post:
Well of course they generate a magnetic field, if they didn't you would not need them. ANY moving current generates a magnetic field. That's how electromagnets work...
True.
But of course that doesn't mean its going to create a dangerous field. Compared to the alternator its NOTHING.
True.
...Namely that they can pick up noise, thus reducing performance, when the car is under heavy load. This is due to the ground loops created, and the fact that all of the noise from the spark plugs, alternator, stereo or whatever will be coupled into ALL signal lines.
Heavy load = more current = more voltage drop. Lower impedance line help reduce this. Noise is coupled in many ways, crosstalk is a primary cause - wires with fields in close proximity can couple - the fields induce extra current in the other - hence noise. Crosstalk is generated mostly from the speed of the signals transition and its amplitude and its proximity (distance) from another wire. In other words, a lower frequency signal can generate more crosstalk if it transitions faster and has a greater amplitude than a higher frequency signal that has slow transitions and small amplitude.
Another source is return path separation. This happens when the return current cannot follow the same path as the source current. This separation causes changes in the impedance between these paths and noise is created. All signal line coupling is an unusual case that would have to be caused by noise being introducted on the ground or power source. It takes a strong signal or a high speed (transition) signal to create this type of effect.
Adding ground loops is literally an antenna that picks up noise
This can be true if potential differences exist and current starts to flow. This can cause problems in many ways. The most common is that you have a different reference point for different circuits in the system. Any wire can become an antenna depending on the source field (this goes back the crosstalk issue).
Ground loops in a system like a car should be hard to create, not impossible, since it is an isolated system, no true reference to earth ground. Hence having a low impedance path between all the different circuits is very important. This allows all the different circuits to use as close as possible the same reference voltage for ground.
Whew - damn I'm tired of typing - I'm sure you're tired of reading.
I hope this sheds some light on the issue as it is really far from complete. Many books have been written on these subjects.
Summary:
Not too many bad things can happen from adding these extra low impedance current paths.
Changing the current path for some return paths is probably the worst. Current always takes the path of least resistance.
Potentially additional sources for current loops.
Good things:
Lower impedance paths.
Less power loss due to lower resistance.
Better current path, no chassis hardware/panel (using the body as the primary conductor) interfaces to go through - less noise.
Will help keep different areas at nearly the same reference potential - less noise - less chance for ground loops.
Less current flowing through the chassis, steel - a ferrous material, so smaller magnetic fields are generated.
More current flowing through copper, a non-ferrous material, so again smaller magnetic fields.
It will take a huge external magnetic field to induce current in an isolated system like a car - so I would not worry too much about
any external magnetic fields. All internally generated fields are very well taken care of through the use of proper shielding. This also helps to shield from external electro-magnetic sources like radar, radio, and the like which are powerful enough to couple to wires in the car (again any wire can be an antenna).
IMO the grounding kits should mostly help and will in very rare circumstances hurt the performance of the system.
I bought and installed a kit from z327 so you should know without a doubt where I stand.
PS: I hope that your mechanics know more about your car's mechanical operation then they do about how electricity, magnetics, and noise works.
I'd personally be going somewhere else.
I will try give you answers based my experiences and respond to the points made so far in this thread.
If you don't want to read all that go to the end for a summary, it's rather lengthy(sorry).
My responses are in bold post quotes are in italic.
Sorry I didn't use the post reference feature - I typed the majority of this in a word processor.
1st post:
They pointed out that first, the cables are too thick(40's? got them from z327) and it will create too much magnetic field.
Thick is good - reduces impedance - reduces resistance => less voltage drop for any current flowing through the wire. The bad part of heavier wire is it usually increases inductance and capacitance which can have negative impacts on the current source.
Then they said ends are connected to the engine itself, may effect the spark plug,
This is true - the return path for the plug is the engine block - see previous point - this however is a good thing. Lower impedance = less loss to resistance = more voltage available to the spark plug.
they should be connected to the radiator.
HUH? - no need for current to be flowing there unless the fan is grounded through it, can't imagine that's the case.
And, some of the ends are connected to the firewall,
OK, So...
which on the other side is full of electronics and computer chips,
Again, see the 1st point.
magnetic field there is def. not a good thing.
Not sure why they would specifically say this about this area only - but see the next point.
Last, they said some parts of the car is suppose to be blocked off from power and magnetic, connecting the grounding kit will let power and magnetic field running thru the car/engine bay which may actually harm the electronic devices. ...
Absolutely true, items like the ECU, and others, are totally enclosed in metal creating a Faraday Cage shield protecting them from outside fields, electrical(EMI) and magnetic. If these enclosures are not grounded or more specifically, kept from being isolated, then the enclosure can act like an antenna and pass the fields through via radiating them back inside the case.
Nissan did not do this, they are attached to the chassis allowing the Faraday Cage to do its job.
It will not gain horse power and it gives chances to mess up your electronic or chances to have power leak with this many outlets...
Horse power gain could be questionable but not unlikely. The potential for systems to work more efficiently due to lower noise, lower voltage drops, reduction of potential ground loop sources could allow the system to produce additional hp. This is an area best proven through empirical data and dyno charts. As for messing up the electronics - not likely. And as for power leaks - HUH? That's too technical a term for me to go into here - I'm speaking of leakage current of electronics - I'm not sure to what they are referring.
Another post:
Magnetic Field, how is it going to create a magnetic field? I could be wrong, but I've never heard of a ground wire creating a magnetic field.
Any current passing through a wire creates both an electrical and magnetic field. A wire by itself no. Any wire capable of this on its own would be called a magnet and most likely not called a wire since it would be a relatively poor conductor.
Another post:
There is no way that a ground can produce any magnetic field.
This is true as long as no current is flowing. See previous, ground loop.
To get a magnet in an electrical system require electrical current (which the ground has zero).
True. To create an electromagnet current has to flow through a conductor wrapped around a ferrous material.
Even if there was a magnetic field, it wouldn't even harm your engine. The engine is mostly aluminum and magnets don't have any effect on them (or very little) If a magnetic field is that strong to cause damage to your engine, your ecu would be fried by that point. Even in that case...
Cant really see how it would effect your engine - wouldn't want to be near a magnetic field that could.
Another post:
Well of course they generate a magnetic field, if they didn't you would not need them. ANY moving current generates a magnetic field. That's how electromagnets work...
True.
But of course that doesn't mean its going to create a dangerous field. Compared to the alternator its NOTHING.
True.
...Namely that they can pick up noise, thus reducing performance, when the car is under heavy load. This is due to the ground loops created, and the fact that all of the noise from the spark plugs, alternator, stereo or whatever will be coupled into ALL signal lines.
Heavy load = more current = more voltage drop. Lower impedance line help reduce this. Noise is coupled in many ways, crosstalk is a primary cause - wires with fields in close proximity can couple - the fields induce extra current in the other - hence noise. Crosstalk is generated mostly from the speed of the signals transition and its amplitude and its proximity (distance) from another wire. In other words, a lower frequency signal can generate more crosstalk if it transitions faster and has a greater amplitude than a higher frequency signal that has slow transitions and small amplitude.
Another source is return path separation. This happens when the return current cannot follow the same path as the source current. This separation causes changes in the impedance between these paths and noise is created. All signal line coupling is an unusual case that would have to be caused by noise being introducted on the ground or power source. It takes a strong signal or a high speed (transition) signal to create this type of effect.
Adding ground loops is literally an antenna that picks up noise
This can be true if potential differences exist and current starts to flow. This can cause problems in many ways. The most common is that you have a different reference point for different circuits in the system. Any wire can become an antenna depending on the source field (this goes back the crosstalk issue).
Ground loops in a system like a car should be hard to create, not impossible, since it is an isolated system, no true reference to earth ground. Hence having a low impedance path between all the different circuits is very important. This allows all the different circuits to use as close as possible the same reference voltage for ground.
Whew - damn I'm tired of typing - I'm sure you're tired of reading.
I hope this sheds some light on the issue as it is really far from complete. Many books have been written on these subjects.
Summary:
Not too many bad things can happen from adding these extra low impedance current paths.
Changing the current path for some return paths is probably the worst. Current always takes the path of least resistance.
Potentially additional sources for current loops.
Good things:
Lower impedance paths.
Less power loss due to lower resistance.
Better current path, no chassis hardware/panel (using the body as the primary conductor) interfaces to go through - less noise.
Will help keep different areas at nearly the same reference potential - less noise - less chance for ground loops.
Less current flowing through the chassis, steel - a ferrous material, so smaller magnetic fields are generated.
More current flowing through copper, a non-ferrous material, so again smaller magnetic fields.
It will take a huge external magnetic field to induce current in an isolated system like a car - so I would not worry too much about
any external magnetic fields. All internally generated fields are very well taken care of through the use of proper shielding. This also helps to shield from external electro-magnetic sources like radar, radio, and the like which are powerful enough to couple to wires in the car (again any wire can be an antenna).
IMO the grounding kits should mostly help and will in very rare circumstances hurt the performance of the system.
I bought and installed a kit from z327 so you should know without a doubt where I stand.
PS: I hope that your mechanics know more about your car's mechanical operation then they do about how electricity, magnetics, and noise works.
I'd personally be going somewhere else.
Last edited by FriscoZR; 02-02-2004 at 06:08 PM.
02-02-2004, 08:23 PM
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well I have ground wires and to be honest I cannot tell one bit of difference after 8,000 miles...........but they look cool i tell you...............
.........Im gonna go in the ground wire business........
.........Im gonna go in the ground wire business........
02-03-2004, 06:16 AM
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Frisco,
A quick few points regarding how grounding systems could be improved:
1) As grounding kits stand now, **** is just randomly connected together, and some loops are created. Ideally, each signal line should have a ground with it in a star configuration from the ECU to its termination. This would require a new hybrid type of cable in lieu of existing wiring.
2) Now it depends on the frequencies that you care about, but for stuff like spark plug noise, you can be up in 100's of Mhz. For these frequencies that you do care about, 0 gauge wire does little due to the skin effect. You would be better off going with a hybrid cable as mentioned above with individual, isolated strands.
X
A quick few points regarding how grounding systems could be improved:
1) As grounding kits stand now, **** is just randomly connected together, and some loops are created. Ideally, each signal line should have a ground with it in a star configuration from the ECU to its termination. This would require a new hybrid type of cable in lieu of existing wiring.
2) Now it depends on the frequencies that you care about, but for stuff like spark plug noise, you can be up in 100's of Mhz. For these frequencies that you do care about, 0 gauge wire does little due to the skin effect. You would be better off going with a hybrid cable as mentioned above with individual, isolated strands.
X
02-03-2004, 09:29 AM
#25
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First, as others have mentioned . . . the Japanese spec Z's (Fairlady's) come with these grounding kits from the factory.
Second, there is no way in HE*L that bolting wires from one metal grounding point to another is going to harm anything. There is not enough current flowing through these grounding cables at any time to create a significant enough magnetic field to harm ANYTHING!!!! The same obviously does not apply to bolting wires from one point in an electric circuit to another, but all the grounding points I've seen used (see Insaneamine's website) are not part of an electric circuit in the Z.
Second, there is no way in HE*L that bolting wires from one metal grounding point to another is going to harm anything. There is not enough current flowing through these grounding cables at any time to create a significant enough magnetic field to harm ANYTHING!!!! The same obviously does not apply to bolting wires from one point in an electric circuit to another, but all the grounding points I've seen used (see Insaneamine's website) are not part of an electric circuit in the Z.
02-03-2004, 09:43 AM
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Originally posted by MSGarrett1
First, as others have mentioned . . . the Japanese spec Z's (Fairlady's) come with these grounding kits from the factory.
Second, there is no way in HE*L that bolting wires from one metal grounding point to another is going to harm anything. There is not enough current flowing through these grounding cables at any time to create a significant enough magnetic field to harm ANYTHING!!!! The same obviously does not apply to bolting wires from one point in an electric circuit to another, but all the grounding points I've seen used (see Insaneamine's website) are not part of an electric circuit in the Z.
First, as others have mentioned . . . the Japanese spec Z's (Fairlady's) come with these grounding kits from the factory.
Second, there is no way in HE*L that bolting wires from one metal grounding point to another is going to harm anything. There is not enough current flowing through these grounding cables at any time to create a significant enough magnetic field to harm ANYTHING!!!! The same obviously does not apply to bolting wires from one point in an electric circuit to another, but all the grounding points I've seen used (see Insaneamine's website) are not part of an electric circuit in the Z.
X
02-03-2004, 09:45 AM
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hey phattie, I don't know jack about electronics, current, magnetic fields or whatever... except what I see in Star Trek. but after putting on InsaneAnime's grounding kit about 14 months ago I immediately noticed a smoother idle and acceleration. that was good enough for me... although I still get shocked quite a bit when I get out of my car. oh well...
02-03-2004, 10:29 AM
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Originally posted by Xeinth
Frisco,
A quick few points regarding how grounding systems could be improved:
1) As grounding kits stand now, **** is just randomly connected together, and some loops are created. Ideally, each signal line should have a ground with it in a star configuration from the ECU to its termination. This would require a new hybrid type of cable in lieu of existing wiring.
2) Now it depends on the frequencies that you care about, but for stuff like spark plug noise, you can be up in 100's of Mhz. For these frequencies that you do care about, 0 gauge wire does little due to the skin effect. You would be better off going with a hybrid cable as mentioned above with individual, isolated strands.
X
Frisco,
A quick few points regarding how grounding systems could be improved:
1) As grounding kits stand now, **** is just randomly connected together, and some loops are created. Ideally, each signal line should have a ground with it in a star configuration from the ECU to its termination. This would require a new hybrid type of cable in lieu of existing wiring.
2) Now it depends on the frequencies that you care about, but for stuff like spark plug noise, you can be up in 100's of Mhz. For these frequencies that you do care about, 0 gauge wire does little due to the skin effect. You would be better off going with a hybrid cable as mentioned above with individual, isolated strands.
X
Second, there is no way in HE*L that bolting wires from one metal grounding point to another is going to harm anything. There is not enough current flowing through these grounding cables at any time to create a significant enough magnetic field to harm ANYTHING!!!! The same obviously does not apply to bolting wires from one point in an electric circuit to another, but all the grounding points I've seen used (see Insaneamine's website) are not part of an electric circuit in the Z.
That's why proper grounding and shielding of circuits is so important to their desired operation. This is a part of engineering that is far from an exact science. In most applications there are just too many equations to solve for all the potential fields that can exist in this type of system. At work we have a $20K package that lets us do 2D solving on PCBs to see how the signals will interact. This situation is a 3D solution and very hard to solve. The 3D version of this tool is close to $200K for the base package. This package is stil designed to work on PCBs and not wire harnesses and free space wiring like in a car. Again, this is a very complex problem.
The best way to improve on these types of designs is to find problem areas and use general rules and experience to arrive at a solution. Sometimes this can take many attempts to find the real source of the problem.
Here I go again on another long post - so I think I'll quit while I'm behind. Ciao.
02-03-2004, 12:25 PM
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Mechanics in Fanta Shokata
OKay, it's time for a Fanta movie.....
Phatmitzu's mechanic on Grounding wires
Thought this will give everyone a break.
Mickey
Phatmitzu's mechanic on Grounding wires
Thought this will give everyone a break.
Mickey
02-03-2004, 08:47 PM
#30
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Re: Mechanics in Fanta Shokata
Originally posted by mickey
OKay, it's time for a Fanta movie.....
Phatmitzu's mechanic on Grounding wires
Thought this will give everyone a break.
Mickey
OKay, it's time for a Fanta movie.....
Phatmitzu's mechanic on Grounding wires
Thought this will give everyone a break.
Mickey
okay okay, I've already installed my grounding kit! Lets leave my poor mechanics alone!
02-04-2004, 06:13 AM
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Originally posted by FairladyZ
FriscoZR,
Where did you attach your ground wires? What/where in the engine bay are the best spots?
FriscoZR,
Where did you attach your ground wires? What/where in the engine bay are the best spots?
I will, if I ever get enough free time from my other endeavors, do some research to back up his recommendations or offer new placements if I find some better ones.
Again, I will reiterate, this a very complex, non-trivial problem to solve and it helps to have an issue, like poor idle - that's repeatable, to help in the diagnosis and in creating a solution.
Take comfort in the fact that most dynos that I've seen show gains - although in my opinion the results are not statistically significant nor are there enough samples to reasonably draw any valid conclusions. However, they also don't show losses - which is good. Also take comfort in the fact you should be aiding your grounding system by reducing its impedance, reducing noise, etc... (see my earlier post). Oh yeah, they do a great job of helping to dress up the engine bay (looks never hurt anything either).
If you want to meet up with me sometime to see my installation or generally talk Z's or whatever, I'm also a member of ZCOT, and I live just to the NW side of Allen. Just PM me.
Ciao...
02-04-2004, 06:20 AM
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Sweet, I am a member also. We have the grounding kit on both Z's and I want to make sure they are in the right spots. I will pm you and we can meet up sometime.
02-04-2004, 04:41 PM
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Originally posted by Xeinth
Thats ignorant to state as fact. A few DBm on a critical signal line like CPS or your timing could affect performance. If you dont think that a ground loop can induce noise at those levels, I would like your opinion on how an AM antenna works.
X
Thats ignorant to state as fact. A few DBm on a critical signal line like CPS or your timing could affect performance. If you dont think that a ground loop can induce noise at those levels, I would like your opinion on how an AM antenna works.
X
I am infinitely familiar with alternator whine/ground loop noise found in substandard car audio installations. I am a former IASCA judge, and have installed/trouble-shot many a car audio installation. More importantly, I have specifically installed one in this vehicle (mine). We are not talking about a car audio amplifier's power cable's current inducing signal noise in a pair of RCA cables going to said amplifier. We are talking about engine grounding kits, of which there are several available, including one from NISSAN.
We are not talking about theoretical current flow induced on this signal path or that. We are talking specifically about these 0-gauge wires found in grounding kits for the Nissan 350 Z placed from one specific ground to another. More importantly, I have placed Insaneamine's grounding kit on my Z, and have measured current flow with an Ohm meter, at various engine RPM, with and without my stereo on, etc. Bottom line . . . you can't say that these grounding kits are creating a problem, unless you have direct evidence that they do. The many thousands of customers that have installed grounding kits on their Z, without stereo alternator whine or other problems, speaks volumes about their utility or at least their safety. PLUS, as previously stated, NISSAN installs these grounding kits in Japan on J-spec Z's. Maybe NISSAN is unaware of all the ECU signal alteration they are causing.
Last edited by MSGarrett1; 02-04-2004 at 04:46 PM.
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