Orange Peel

Ferrari's Fire Two Pistons at a time, I have heard of some MSD systems(that cannot work with our car because we have direct ignition) also enable this.

I don't know if MSD also makes a DLI system that facilitaes this.

But would this be safe (considering Ferrari's arent the most durable cars) and would it make power on our cars? Umm would it even make a Difference in responsiveness or would it just cause increased gas mileage, would you also have to have to make the fuel be place in both pistons? I guess you would have too, how would that effect the exaust that's leaving? How does Ferrari do this? hahaha

I can't even think of how it works but In theory it has to work because you have twice the force pushing down onto the piston to move the crank twice the expanding nitrogen, ohh air flow would have to be much better aka individual throttle bodies, oh no i know why ferrari has Individual throttle bodies, ok wait, you engineers out there, can this bee done simply and will it benefit?


Basically can we answer all the questions? Can it be Built if possible? Ok bye Buys have fun!!!

Orange Peel

Thats me holding the door, I was a counselor at a Baha'i YOuth Summer School, Homie checking out the ZZZ! Loves it!!

Z1 Performance

iTrader: (564)

no MSD box changes the firing sequence of your car...if it did, the car would not run

All the MSD boxes are are effectively giant capacitors...they increase the amount of times the coil fires relative to stock, as well as the intensity of the spark (on some). This was useful back in the day before individual coil on plug or coilpack setups became the norm. The Z's ignition is about as good as it gets.

ares

iTrader: (2)

I guess essentially you could take say a 5liter V8 and turn it into a 5liter V16... that would reduce the area per cylinder even though you fire them opposite.

might increase engine balance as far as offsetting motion. maybe better mix within a smaller chamber size? better ignition over a smaller area. higher RPM with smaller more precise components?

just shots in the dark at what it might do.

Z1 Performance

iTrader: (564)

its just batch fire vs sequential...true programmable standalones let you do either or

Orange Peel

sorry i guess I was misinformed about the MSd, oh well, Can you do this Mr. Z1?
and will it be better, seems like it doesn't even make a difference?

azrael

I think he's referring to waste-spark.

Waste-spark ignition systems fire the plugs on two cylinders, but only one of those cylinders contains air/fuel. The other cylinder is about to begin the intake cycle, and the plug fires with no effect.

D'oh

I don't know about the Ferrari (sounds unlikely that they actually have two cylinders doing the power stroke @ the same time), but in the Z the firing order is sequential and in all cars it is determined by the crankshaft design. I guess you could change the firing order with a stand alone controller, but the car wouldn't run.

-D'oh!

shopdog

Some little 4 bangers also work this way, as do a few 2 cylinder bikes and utility engines (ie big lawnmower engines). All that's happening here is that there's one coil for every two cylinders instead of one coil for every cylinder as our 350Zs have. The cylinder with its piston approaching TDC on the compression stroke fires a combustible mixture that then does work on the power stroke. The other cylinder's piston is approaching BDC on the exhaust stroke. The fuel in that cylinder is already burned, the piston is at the bottom, and the exhaust valve is open, so it makes no extra power when the spark fires. Of course, later, that cylinder becomes the one on the power stroke, and the other becomes the one on the exhaust stroke. But only one at a time makes power when the spark fires.

The reason manufacturers do it this way is that it is simpler and cheaper than having one coil per plug, or using a distributor which directs the output of one coil to each cylinder in turn. Realize that only the cylinder with its piston at TDC at the end of its compression stroke can make any power when the plug fires. The other cylinder is just firing "blanks" at its part of the 4 stroke cycle.

Orange Peel

so the ferrai's are firing blanks too? Why would the Enzo and the F430(new modena replacement) do this? It must be something else then I am probably mistaken. Ok guys thanks.

AREITU

Did you read anything the other guys posted about waste-spark?

I'm sure the new Ferraris have DIS.

rednezz

iTrader: (1)

I don't know about the Ferrari engines, but I know the Honda engines they used in CART fired two pistons at once. It worked by having two pistons aligned on the crank in the same position so that they would reach TDC at the same time on the same stroke. It was a V8 engine but essentially it was a 4 cylinder because of the way it worked.

Vash350Z

iTrader: (9)

I guess this explains why my old sears riding mower idles like ***

Resolute

iTrader: (2)

The Ferrari uses a V8 in the Modena and a V10 in the Enzo, which means there will always be 2 pistons on the compression stroke at the same time, on opposite banks. Hence, firing two pistons at the same time. The Z has a V6, so two pistons will not always be in the compression stroke. It's not a batch fire system. I can't think of a single engine around, let alone a High Performance engine, that would use a batch fire system on the ignition.
Ferraris have had DIS ignition for some time, the 360 V8, soon to be bumped to 4.3 for the new 430, will work this same way Orange Peel, with a single spark per cylinder, but one piston on either bank will always be in compression stroke, so two pistons will be firing at once. Make any sense?

Orange Peel

Oh ok i get it, And both pistons will have air and fuel? Sounds good, its impossible in 6 cylinder, or a 10 or a five or ok got it. Sounds good. Thanks for the clarification.

Michael-Dallas

Ferrari V-8's have flat-plane crankshafts. They are virtually 2 I-4 motors running at the same time. This design is is the reason why they have such an alluring sound.

More info can be found here.

Michael.

AREITU

Are you sure? A normal four cylinder engine has one piston slightly offset so that two aren't firing at the same time. Stick two of these together and you get a flat-crank V8...

Orange Peel

A flat plane crank means that the crank is flat in one plane and is like a straight 4 cylinder engine. Thus Ferrari v8 engines are really 'just' 2 4 cylinder engines bolted together.

Other v8's like GM and Ford, etc. have a much more complicated crank that has a different firing order ... hence the v8 burble or rumble from those engines.

Another reason that flat plance cranks are used for more performance orientated engines is that exhaust scavenging is better as again you can build 2 4 cyl. exhaust extractor systems with no cross over pipes (have a look at a genuine Ford GT40 exhaust and the cross over comment will make sense).

I have heard racing Rover v8's with a flat plane crank installed and it sounded beautiful , and wailed just lovely.

As for Ferrari engines being low displacement ... well historically they used to be but I no longer agree with this comment. The Enzo is a huge motor at 6 litres and the F550 and F575 are not that much smaller, and the v8 Ferraris are slowly growing in size. We are up to 3.6 litres now thus 4 litres will come soon ... not small motors IMO.

Anyway high revving motors scream as the cylinder pulses merge together. Listen to any Japanese motor cycle for example, and Ferrari motors do rev higher than the average engine.

Thus we have the flat plane crank that creates the wail and the high revs means the wail turns to a scream at high rpm

Pete
EDIT: Okay I have tried to sketch a flat plane crank :


THat was the Guy's post WOW, so it was true after all.


Actually , come to think of it, the RSX type S (My former car) had what i was told was the equivalent to a half of a v8 honda indy car engine with the =same system. Thats how they have so much torque for 4 cyliners. The K20a and A2 were derived from a flat crank V8. That V8 was originally rumored to be in the next generation NSX and it suxz that its not. I also heard that they have scrapped the NSX for a 40-50 k Boxter competitor? It will sell a lot, and it is supposed to be really fast? I guess it'l have the TL v6 or a derivative of it. I'm sick of V6 i wan't a high revving v8. Especially one from honda. It'll be twice as reliable as the ferrari and it will be twice as cheap and twice asn practicle and awesom to drive. I want a high revving V8. or at least a high revving 350Z.

I miss my old car's top end power band. I need help figuring out a cheap way to rev high, under four grand (parts at least)


most probably rod bolts, and RZz heads and camshafts and valvetrain. Its the cheapest way to go for high revving( no pistons rods or crank), but its around 5 grand. I need hook ups.

Orange Peel

nevemind i'll just lose weight hahahahahha

I can't weight to change my brakes by myself hehe.

the feeling of power and handling tools A UG uG uG uG!!

I love aligator jacks

mgtibbetts

iTrader: (1)

Dude, the Enzo does not use a V10, it has a V12. You might be thinking of the Viper.