noodleman

iTrader: (13)

I don't really want to thread jack anybody, so i wanted to make this thread to let people discuss about much heated debate of Real kits vs Replicas.

Mods, if this is in the wrong spot, please move the thread for me.

This probrably is going to flamebait or something, so let me start by saying the following:

While I don't really condone the purchases of replicas, i'm not here to bash/flame people for doing so.

I wanted to give my point of view on replicas, and start a discussion about it, and see what opinions others have about this.

Here's a stuff I keep hearing about defending replicas:

1) The real one is too expensive and I can't afford it otherwise!

I like the motto "You gotta pay to play" to handle this. If you wanted XYZ body kit and can't afford it, then don't buy it! I mean most of us here can't afford a SLR Maclaren, but you don't see companys trying to make a replica with an lawnmower engine it or something.

2) Why would I pay an extra $X for a bodykit when this replica looks the same and is of decent quality?

That's like people buying fake LV wallets. It just means imo that you're a poser. If you can't swing LV, then go for a coach or something. On top of that, the company who designed the kit has to put R&D into designing and creating the kit. The value of the kit is set at a price to recover the cost of R&D and materials, plus some profit for future research.

3) The kit is not available in this material!

This is where I also see the grey line between Real and Replica. Most of the kits from Japan are made from FRP, while US folk would like to see them in other materials like CF, urathane, etc. BUT i do wonder WHY those companys did not produce the kit in those materials. Was it because it's not a material suitable for the kit? Was it a lack of demand? Production costs would've been high, increasing the price of the kit, thus people wouldn't buy it anyways?

So what are other peoples views and opinions?

BhashaZ

iTrader: (18)

To answer point number 1, I think what a lot of people fail to realize is basically that many (but not all, as Bubble can show you) replica kits require a good amount of adjustment in order to fit properly. This, in turn, adds additional cost to the bottom line. Plus, I have seen a lot of kits that even after modifying them, they still look "aftermarket" and tacked on. Also, you don't know how good the material actually is. Sometimes the kit may look great for a few months (like Maaco paint), but the true test is to see how long it "really" lasts.

To answer point 3, I received my kit in Hybrid Aero, which has the same flex as polyurethane, but it weighs practically nothing! But a lot of people insist going polyurethane because they think it's better than FG. I think that an authentic FG piece from reputable company (ings, Nismo, etc.) probably hold up just as well as urethane pieces that a lot of aftermarket/replica companies make. But I *think* the reason why a lot of Japanese companies produce FG or FRP pieces is because when you produce in limited quantities, it may be cheaper to produce vs polyurethane. Again, this is just what I think, and I can't back up this statement.

I think what most other people don't realize is that they can spend just a LITTLE bit more and they could have gotten the real deal. For example, you may be able to get a "real" kit for around $1200, and a replica costs maybe $700. Now, lets say installation costs $900 for the real kit, and $1100 for the replica. After everything is said and done, the replica still costs less ($1800 vs $2100), but then you stop and think, it was only $300 more for the real thing, which probably fit better and is a better quality piece. I don't know, it would just give me piece of mind knowing I have a better quality piece. As a closer, this is not to say that ALL authentic pieces are excellent, and that ALL replicas are inferior. I think this just holds true most of the time. In the end, your money, your car, your choice.

Bubble

iTrader: (50)

hehehe...no comment from me.

mrodenberg0124

I just think if the quality is near the same there's no reason to pay the extra cash for the brand name. And yes i think the R&D cost is a valid point, but any company that pioneers anything is going to have others follow on their coat tails and try to make a similar product at a cheaper price. It's the way our economy works. IMO seeing as how i support not only myself and my fiance as she goes through college, i don't see how buying a replica kit to save money makes me a 'poser' or 'not able to swing it'. Obviously no one is going to go the cheaper route if they know the kit is only going to half fit or something of that nature and we'd all love to have the money to buy 'real' kits, but for some people's finances it's just not realistic. I'm still a 350z owner under the kit whether it has that Veilside emblem on the bumper or not.....just my 2 cents.

BhashaZ

iTrader: (18)

BTW, I've said it before, but although I bought authentic, I do have faith in Shine Auto's replicas. Just from looking at the pictures they fit great! Plus they offer local pick-up for Socal people and I think they guarantee fitment too. So like I said, not all replicas are bad!

MustGoFastR

iTrader: (13)

+1 on that, especially the comment regarding how our economy works. Just about everything on the market started as one company's great idea and was more expensive, but prices have since dropped due to competing products that essentially copy the function of the original. Elitist aftermarket companies should realize this, IMO; not everyone cares about the label on the part, but the part itself. If you can get a camparable part cheaper somewhere else, it's a no brainer.

BhashaZ

iTrader: (18)

Also, I think there will eventually come a point in time that:

1. The REAL companies lose enough money to go bankrupt. Then who are these aftermarket companies going to copy? They'll have to produce their own innovative products.

2. Japanese companies will develop a US presense, and they'll start suing like there's no tomorrow!

Of course, I don't know if either of these scenarios will develop, but I wouldn't be surprised if they do...

noodleman

iTrader: (13)

mrodengerg, that's sorta what I mean. it's not like the Z is so bad looking that you *NEED* a body kit on it. As BhashaZ said, in the end, you may saving alot less than you think.

Maybe it's cause it seems like it's a victimless "crime" to get replicas, that no one is losing out. If i went ahead and took one of the good fitting replica kits, made a mold out of it and started selling their kits for even less to undercut their business, seems pretty underhanded to me.

But I guess i can't live in a fairy tale land forever :P

mrodenberg0124

I agree with you on most of your points. Zs definately don't need kits to be good looking cars, but then again i don't want to pull up to a stoplight and see 3 exact same Zs no matter which way i turn my head.

As for coming out about even after installation that's really a toss up. I'm sure most people that are serious enough about their cars to buy a kit in the first place either 1) know someone that works or owns a shop that will cut them a deal or 2) can do it themselves. And if you don't and you ARE willing to pay full price at a shop then you obviously have the money to buy the real kit anyway so it's a moot point.

As for the 'pioneer' companies that's why they're always first out with a hot new product and have the prestige that makes them world known. Although i agree that i think things like that should go under the patent rule or something to where the pioneer company gets a share of the profit from the replica company. *shrugs* Imperfect solution for an imperfect world i guess.

rkd350z

iTrader: (3)

I think picking the replica rather than real one is on their choice.

03_Track_Z

iTrader: (2)

so assuming you get a replica kit that fits well, like what bubble is promoting, lets just look at this very simply

you are getting something that looks just as good, fits just as well, for way, WAY WAY WAY cheaper

why is it that you are complaining?

Bubble

iTrader: (50)

then someone will replica of their kit. Another cycle. lolz..

alan00000

iTrader: (3)

I just ordered a replica for $379.99 VERTEX GRADE B fiberglass . the site says the kits are primed ,pre drilled holes, quality precision great fitment. We will see what happens. if it doesnt work out its only 379.99.

iilljlllii

iTrader: (4)

my replica nismo body kit fits almost perfectly, and was WAY cheapter than the real kit. and i am very happy with it.

ShineAutoProject

iTrader: (25)

Since I am an insider in this particular industry, I will try my best to give you guys all the information you need to know.

Replica or Real thing ??

From my past working experience in the industry and what I've seen with my own two eyes, I would not buy replicas made from overseas manufacturers such as CHINA, Indonesia, Phillipines or Mexico. Simply because their standards for fiberglass quality is ,generally, very low. I've seen products from pretty much all the big players in this game and the quality is unnacceptable. Most of the big replica companies in this industry manufacture overseas because material and labor are cheap. That's why they can sell a full body kit for $300-600. They're usually thinking quantity, not quality. In the world of composites, most parts are hand-maid where the skill and attention of the applicator plays a huge role in the final quality of a part. Composites is not about an injection molding machine pumping out 100 parts a day. Every fiberglass bodykit is pretty much hand-crafted and if your mindset is "crank out as many parts as fast as i can", then your quality will diminish. If you're working with cheaper/inferior materials, your products will reflect that. Most of the time, these manufacturers in China for example, don't have our particular cars to test fit products before they make a mold or after their product is made. And you wonder why they can't get a product to fit. They didn't take necessary precautions and standard steps involved in producing quality composite parts. There are alot of steps involved in making sure a mold is right. This is where SKILLZ come in to play.

Take a look at this scenario:

Replica company Z has 50 bumpers of "X" style body kit arriving in a container from CHINA (1 month travel time perhaps), which they have no CLUE whatsoever to the quality of the fitment of the product. They sell the bumper to a customer. Customer tries it on. Guess what? Sh*t doesnt fit and is waay off. Now what? Customer tells company Z, "stuff doesnt fit." Now what? Is company Z going to send the parts back to China and restart on the project again (with no car to test fit in China), which could take several months and STILL not be gauranteed to fit? The answer is HELL NO. They're gonna sell you that sh*t KNOWING that it doesn't fit and get some money out of it. They're going to charge you a 25% restocking fee. 25% from retail price is already more than what they paid for the bumper. And to avoid further headaches, they're going to sell indirectly to you through a myriad of other companies (most of them are on ebay), so they don't have to hear you ***** and complain about the quality of their product. They're going to sucker you in with the low price. Well guess what...you get what you pay for. Some will even charge you a high price and STILL give you sh*tty product. This is why EBAY transactons are notorious for scams, poor customer service, and poor quality products.

If I did not see the replica bumper in person with my own two eyes, then I wouldn't buy it. If they have a reasonable refund policy, then sure... I would try it out. What do I have to lose? But the fact of the matter is, most don't have a full refund policy.

These are some of things I look at to determine the quality of a fiberglass body kit:

#1. Fitment. The damn thing better fit right without MAJOR body work.

#2. Construction. Is it light? Or is it heavy and brittle.

$3. Is everything symmetrical. The straight line better be straight and the curves better be nice mathematical curves.

#4. Gel coat finish. Is this bumper going to require alot of body work? U.S labor is not cheap. Body shops charge $35-$50 an hour. I deal alot with a well know bodyshop called DTMAUTOHAUS in El Monte, CA. Check them out. www.dtmautohaus.com. They tell me all the time that customers think they are getting a good deal when they purchase a cheap replica, only to find out that the work required from the body shop to make the parts look "decent" on the car would cost them almost as much as buying the real thing.

If the replica did not meet these criterias, I would not buy. Think about it guys. If you're going to spend $$$ hundreds of dollars on a paint job, why not spend it on a good product that holds respect, thus good "resale" value among the community?

I'm not too sure about this, but I believe Version Select is a Japanese replicating company whose line-up are usually Gp sports and Vertex replicas. I've seen their stuff in person and it looks like typical Japanese construction. Light-weight, clean construction........unlike stuff coming from China that's for sure. That is why a Version Select Vertex Full kit replica is $700-950 retail and a Chinese made replica of the same style is $400-$500. Make sense?

Now.....let me tell you guys a little something about what goes on in the Japanese aero-aftermarket industry. We have the rarest and most expensive "authentic" Japanese body kits move in and out of our warehouse everyday, so I believe I have the knowledge to explain to you guys about "authentic" body kits from Japan that you might not realize.

In Japan, there are only a handful (maybe less) that manufacture, probably, 80-90% of the FRP (fiberglass) body kits for Japan. Whether you get a body kit from Vertex or Gpsports...etc.......it will pretty much be constructed the same. White Gel coat surface (sometimes smooth, sometimes not) laminated with 1 layer of 3oz fiberglass mat (When you look at the backside of the part, you can see a yellowish/whitish fiberglass haystack pattern). Very thin and very light. Ideal for racing. Definitely not ideal for drifting or daily driving. I don't mean to go off on a tangent, but I would like to point out one thing that shows the "lack of composite knowledge " of these so called top dog aero parts sellers on ebay. You often times see them advertise, "7 layers of fiberglass........Grade A quality." That's total BS...... no fiberglass bumper uses 7 layers of jack shi*t. And even if they were stupid enough to do so, it wouldn't make the part better. The part would be very heavy and very brittle. I have no idea where these guys got the notion of 7 layers of fiberglass being good quality. All you need is one or two layers, which is what Japanese FRP companies do. Remember, these ebay sellers are just after-market parts retailers. They don't know a damn thing about composites. I personally studied advanced composites for 3 years.

Ok ......back on track. I definitely agree with noodleman that these FRP body kits from Japan are not ideal for daily driving. Vertex is selling you a design and image you would like to have for your car. Japanese FRP parts have good fitment 90% of the time. We rarely have to do any MAJOR modifications if something didn't fit perfectly. They also grind their parts really nicely, making sure you are getting a neat and definitive part to help you attain the image that you want for your car. That is what you are paying for.

Here's the million dollar question. Why don't these companies make body kits in urethane?

First of all, the "tooling cost" to produce molds to make ONE urethane bumper is around $5000-15000. What company is going to invest 10's of thousands of dollars to produce a kit in urethane when they're not even sure the style is going to sell??? Veeery Verrry few Japanese companies go this route. And the companies that DO go the urethane route, it's usually for "smaller" lip kits that have a cheaper tooling cost. Make sense? That's why Greddy has urethane lips and FIBERGLASS bumpers. The style of the kit is what attracts the customer. The material comes second. Most of these Japanese body kit companies don't do surveys before they come out with a kit. They make a kit and basically pray that it's popular.

The second reason why I believe Japanese aero companies dont do urethane (I also believe the first reason is convincing enough) is because they are marketing to the Japanese market. In Japan, the consumers they target are hardcore racers. They want a light-weight product that has aerodynamic functionality to make their car faster on the track. They're not gonna rock a heavy *** urethane bumper. A BIG MISCONCEPTION in the industry is that the URETHANE you see in after-market aero parts is the same material your OEM bumper is made out of. Well, guess what? It's not. The tooling cost involved in making an OEM bumper is in the hundreds of thousands of dollars range, whereas, the tooling cost for a typical after-market urethane bumper is in the thousands range. It's definitely not the same stuff. Urethane is a "thermoform." The nature of a thermoform is to expand, change shape etc.......when exposed to high temperatures. That's why you hear about urethane parts sagging or warping overtime. With a thermoform........you can heat it up, change it's shape, let is set.........heat it up again, change it to another shape.......let it set.......and so on. You can basically use the same exact materials to form another shape. Hence, "thermo" (heat) + "form." OEM bumpers use high grade materials to resist against that. Fiberglass is different. Fiberglass parts are considered
"thermosets." Once the resin heats up and cures, the shape is set. No warping, no sagging overtime. You cannot reheat the same material to form another shape.

ShineAutoProject

iTrader: (25)

Here's another million dollar question. If Japanese manufacturers won't do urethane, and fiberglass easily cracks.........what are our options? The answer is Hybrid FRP. That's all I have to say.

Hybrid FRP is basically flexible fiberglass. Ings Japan is the first Japanese company to come out with the technology for their aero-products and I truely believe they are the only company in Japan that has the technology down. I believe Ings manufactures their own products. Their products look "different" than "other" Japanese body kits. Ings Japan is hands down the BEST FRP manufacturing company in Japan, in my honest opinion. C-west's PFRP doesn't even come close. Ings' craftsmenship is also topnotch. Hybrid FRP is the solution for the industry. Relatively low cost molds (less risk for manufacturers), light-weight parts that are ideal for racing, and flexible parts for daily driving.


The only problem is.......the handful of FRP Japanese manufacturers that manufacture 80-90% of the aero parts for Japan don't do Hybrid FRP. Why? Maybe because they don't know how. That is a possibility. Ings has well guarded their knowledge.

The body kit industry is similar to the clothing industry. You'll see the same looking white t-shirt from hugo boss as you would at the Banana Republic. There is no such thing as an aesthetic design patent in the U.S. Otherwise, the clothing industry would be sueing each other left and right. Anybody can sue anyone for anything, but that doesn't mean they will win. Copyrights are for literature, music, writing, pictures, art.........etc.............not bodykits. Trademarks are for protection against counterfeits, not replicas. If Version Select replicated a vertex bumper and put a vertex logo on it........then that's a different story.

Good quality replicas work in favor of the general consumer, not companies. Businesses develop from meeting the needs of the consumer. That's all I gotta say about that. If Japanese aero-part companies were more customer-focused instead of product-focused.......they would win. But they can care less, because they can make money EVEN if there are replicas of their products out there. There will always be people who will buy they "REAL" sh*t.

Boneout JZA80

iTrader: (89)

i have to second ken's post, he bring's up really good ideas.. i have a replica vertex kit yet im completely happy with it, i actually was a bit buzzed the other day in ktown with a girl when i actually went over a lil curbage next to the parking spot on the 7-11 on wilton/wilshire. if my kit were fiberglass that wouldve been had and i would have to dish out another 500 or whatever it is for another front lip, but my lip didnt have damage to it, i kinda messed up the plastic covering under the car which now i have to fix but my lip just had a few minor scratches... i actually own a twin turbo supra which is sponsored by Bomex. my kit from them fitment was decent but the fiberglass was really thin and actually the sticker in the bumper said JDM by Bomex made in the philippines... so yeah and also my bumper ended up cracking in 3 places so i am just not a big fan of fiberglass and overpriced products... and i guess i really cant compare a fake LV bag to a body kit because in the show scene there are alot of people sporting fake kits, fake bride seats, fake takatas etc which play them off as real because they have some real volks or something that compensates for that... i actually did have a real vertex lip kit but i was really paranoid in driving it knowing one day it would inevitibly crack whether it was a parking bumper concrete stopper, tire on the road or a steep driveway. now that i have a hybrid FRP kit i have tracked, daily drive, even ran over a short part of the sidewalk in the 7-11 parking lot (yes that was my mistake) but it still is ok drivable and showable... i guess its up to the person but i am happy with my product and i know many others see things my way and yet there will always be others who will buy the "real deal" which is cool and their choice.. i just feel myself im saving more money for something thats made with pride and better material

Boneout JZA80

iTrader: (89)

nice response well said and it makes logical sense

Bubble

iTrader: (50)

alrite.."replica" present their case. Let wait for Pete from Vertex.

noodleman

iTrader: (13)

Shine Project, thanks for the detail explaination!

On durability: I confess that I have never actually owned a body kit before, so I can't really say much about the durability of different materials. But are there some hard numbers that one can put down about the durability of FRP kits? Like what kind of impact would destroy an FRP kit? I would imagine that people with our cars in general would be more cautious about damaging our cars anyways, and most likely take precautionary measures to keep the car safe.

So for example, if i had a FRP bumper compared to the Hybrid Aero material, and i'm stopped at light and someone taps my rear bumper at a slow speed. What would happen in both cases? Are FRP kits so fragile that it wouldn't be able to take any form of abuse (scraping on a driveway) what so ever?

I like the example about the white t-shirts, but to extend on that example, what if it was a pattern that was on the shirt, like an LV pattern or something, something that basically defines the company (LV probrably has their monograms and patterns trademarked/copyrighted). By your logic, it's still an aesthetic design (the monograms), so one should be able to replicate their handbags with the same overall design and pattern, and say the LV stands for Lovely Violin.

Now the same case could be said about the designs of the an authentic kit. Especially since alot of companies (yours included), refer to their replicated kits to their original names. The Shine Areo Vertex, Amuse kits. This is even more the case with comsumers...people who buy the replicated kits say that they got a XXX Kit, when what they really got is a replica. While you don't stamp a vertex logo onto the kit, the overall design is so exact that after painting, one would have difficulty telling them apart.

I'm by no means a lawyer, but there must be at some point where a body kit is public domain (free for replication) and other things that should be considered intellectual capital/copyright-able. I mean isn't it true that all replica companies can only make a replica off of an authentic kit? Meaning the company creates their mold from an authentic kit, thus consituting copying?

This could be a philisophical debate where in the end, the general consumer would lose out because of replicas. Others have mentioned that replicas impede companies that invent and design kits to create new and better kits. Should the replica companies not exist, maybe the extra sales could be put towards the expensive tooling costs to produce their kits in other materials. The possibilities for counter arguments on both sides are equally endless.

I really want to keep this discussion going, and see what authentic kit companies have to say about your insight into the industry. I'm still on the fence about your work, not from a quality stand point, but more on an ethical stand point. I understand the wanting for the design of the kit to be available in other materials, and the no brainer between initial costs between real and replica. But at the end of the day, would consumers really be better off with replicas?