We all know we live in a capitalistic world where competition is promoted to "benefit" the consumer. It has been PROVEN. This should not even be a debate. Reverse engineering, copying, replicating, etc.... are all part of competition. It's seldom about being right or wrong. It's about competing with each other to provide better quality products, better service, and better pricing. And whether or not a company is the originator of the design or technology, it does take a tremendous amount of work and effort to create an organization that strives to provide better quality, better service, and attractive pricing... especially in such a competitive market place. Designing or originating is only ONE aspect of the game. If you failed in other aspects, you deserve to be out competed. Money/profits is simply a reward for the efforts. There's no way in hell an organization can provide those aspects efficiently and effectively sitting on their ***. No way in hell.

Have you guys ever bought "generic" prescription drugs? I would say everyone has bought Generic drugs at least once in their life time. Well guess what? Generic drugs are EXACT replicas of the original drug. As a matter of fact, I believe it is a REQUIREMENT for a generic drug to be exactly the same as the original. So why do we have generic drugs? One answer. Cheaper. Even your Doctor will recommend Generics. Are we undermining efforts of the original drug manufacturer? Probably. Does it matter? Probably not. This is the way the world works and all companies should already understand this. Product is only ONE aspect of a business. It is pointless to talk about the way things ought to be when the reason why we live the way we live today is built on the foundation of capitalism, which is a continuous effort among companies to deliver the best possible benefits to the consumer through competition.

The only reason why I really see people knocking on replicas because 95% of the replicas on the market are trash.

The way I see it is....... if so and so company offers a bumper for $1100 and we can produce something very close and offer it for $450, there is no reason why they could not offer it for the same price. If someone is being "greedy," its definitely the originators, not the replicators. All it takes is a little effort and thinking, but unfortunately, these companies do not want to take the time to offer attractive pricing to the U.S market.

There's a difference between:

"Here's my kit. It's $5000. I designed it. Take it or leave it." vs...

"Hmmmm. What can I do to make my products more affordable? Should I look for a cheaper manufacturer without sacrificing quality? Is there anything in the distribution chanel that is adding unnecessary cost without adding much value? Should I work on negotiations with my raw materials supplier? Should I manufacture in the U.S? Etc..."

There's a million things you can do to cut cost and make the final price to the end user attractive and I believe if you as a company fail to make the effort to do so, you will pay for it in the end when there is competition around the corner doing things you should've been doing in the first place.

Ken

 

The points each sponsor makes is directly correlated to the products they sell.. who would've guessed.

 

well put..

 

agreed, i believe there would be more room for profit on selling an item for a more competative price....but then i guess the question is do you want to make more money or be exclusive...company wise anyway...supply and demand determines everything if you want to make money...at least thats why most people start businesses

 

oh man, this debate again? Where is my replica soldier?

 

This is a really interesting thread.

I used to work for a manufacturing company as the IT director so I always had to work with the engineers on their security concerns regarding their designs. It was the highest priority on the network. The reason being is the hundreds and even thousands of hours poured in to the development of the products that are being manufactured. Even a re-design or improved design on an existing product is a tremendous undertaking. That’s why the original product is always more expensive they are still having to pay the cost of all that research and development. So each one sold has to carry the cost of the design until they have paid for the design costs. Then they leave the markup so they can afford to develop new products and maybe these will be a little less expensive because the cash flows there to support it.

Replicas or aftermarket or whatever parts don't have to carry as much burden in the R&D area so they have less involved up front that’s how they make money selling them for less. They can cut a few corners here and there because they aren't as worried about their name. Its about being more affordable. The raw materials are all at a market price; steel, plastic... etc are all commodities. Sure some companies have buying power or whatever but its not much of an advantage.

Patents are supposed to stop this sort of thing from happening but let’s not kid ourselves there’s really no use for companies to fight about it because then the lawyers are the only ones making a profit.

What it all boils down to is that if someone buys a replica and they are happy with it and feel like they got a good deal then good for them. I personally like to support the company that’s willing to backup what they sell and be forth right about the quality and concerned about customer satisfaction and if it’s a replica then so be it.

 

While I can respect your standpoint here, I have a few questions. I am not looking for an argument, either. If there is one thing that I have learned about your products from reading the reviews on this board, it is that they are great quality. I would never suggest that they are not, simply because I do not know. I will say that for every one complaint I have read about your products, I have read fifty positive comments. This would imply that this debate does not have anything to do with the "replicas are poor quality" concern here. With other companies, yes! With Shine, no...

With that said, I think there is more than one "argument" (for lack of a better term) going on here. One is amongst the vendors of these products in regards to turning a profit and business ethics and the other is amongst the consumers. Being a consumer myself and buying authentic parts for my car, quite frankly, I get annoyed when I see someone advertise that they have an Amuse bumper on their car, because it leads other people to believe that it is the same Amuse bumper that I have on my car: an authentic, when in fact it is not an Amuse at all. I paid $500 more than that person for that bumper and I waited over 5 months for it. As others have argued, it's my choice what I do with my money, so some may say that I'm foolish for spending $1000 on a bumper, but that's my choice. Just as its my choice to spend $200 on a pair of jeans or $25,000 on a watch instead of buying a $25 Timex, I can choose to buy the real thing when it comes to parts for my car. As I have suggested in another thread, part of the aura surrounding the JDM craze is not only the appeal of the parts aesthetically, performance-wise, or their quality, but it’s also the rarity and difficulty in procuring them that makes them so captivating and contributes to the “have-to-have” mentality. That, I would argue (and as stupid as it sounds sometimes), is part of what "being JDM" is all about. That diminishes when you are able to get a 'knock-off' version of that "rare" part for half the price from a vendor in California, as opposed to the real thing from Japan.

I don't disagree that it takes a "tremendous amount of work and effort" to have a successful company that produces aero parts, whether you are copying someone else's design or not. I don't think anyone questioned whether or not Shine works hard. My question is: Why not put those efforts into your own designs? Again, for all I know, you may do this, but I know that I have never seen a 'Shine Version II body kit,' for instance. I see "Shine Amuse" or "Shine Nismo V2." I feel as though being a cutting-edge manufacturer in an industry involves taking risks. I see Shine "feeler" threads on this board asking members what kits they want you guys to copy next. Is it really taking a risk when you are able to take another company's product that they may have spent months or even years researching and developing and ask people if they like it? Then if they do, you can come to the conclusion that it's worth copying and if they don't, move on to something else?

Again, I will preface what I am about to say with: I do not know everything about Shine. I do know that companies like Top Secret, INGS+1, Amuse, etc. put extensive and exhaustive research and development into their aero parts. They test to make sure that their aero parts (the parts that some people say don't matter if it's a replica or not since it's "just an aero part") are functional and contribute to performance. Granted, probably 97% of the people who are buying aero parts for their cars aren't looking to gain that fraction of a second advantage on the track, but my point here is that it does cost money to be able to effectively administer and execute these tests. Does Shine do wind-tests, etc. to make sure that their parts are functional or do they just take another company's design, copy it, make some "improvements" and slap their name on it? I'm really not trying to be a smart-@ss with that question, either. I hope that is not how you read it...

Another issue I take with your above statement is comparing your products to generic drugs. I don't see it like that because with generic drugs, the original, innovating company has exclusive rights to that drug. That drug is developed under patent protection. This gives the company protection and the sole rights to the investment of the drug's development. Only when that patent expires are other manufacturers allowed to apply to the FDA to sell a generic version. Even then, the FDA has to approve that manufacturer. So, selling replica aero parts is not exactly the same as selling generic drugs.

I realize my sentiments about replicas are not shared by all and by writing this I am not going to change a lot of peoples' minds. I certainly know that Shine is not going to stop producing body kits because some people don't like the concept. It is reality that people like myself must learn to accept that replicas will always be around. To be honest, I hope Shine continues to produce good quality parts, because there are far too many replicas out there that are sub-par quality. In the end, I encourage the consumer to buy whatever he/she wants to buy...

 

also well put.....

 

WPPJR30....


Well Put as well. I think your questions are questions many others are pondering in their minds, but might be afraid to ask. I personally like to be upfront about what we do, so I don't mind answering the questions if it will give you a better understanding of what we do in particular. Nevertheless, I will respect your decision to agree or disagree.

#1 Rule in Business schooling. Offer a product or service that fulfills your customers' "needs." Many businesses fail because they are too busy building what "they" want and seldom taking the time to find out what the customer really needs. I believe most Japanese after-market parts designers "feel" that they know what the consumer will buy, but seldom take their market research further to gain more information about what designs will be attractive and most importantly, at what price they are willing to pay. However, I could be wrong in my assumption because my perspective is from being an American in the industry. Their designs and pricing can be satisfactory for the Japanese market and it is very possible that is all they care for. You will definitely see aero parts over there selling like pancakes where over here, most 350z enthusiasts wouldn't care for. One good example is the Central 20 kit, which is very popular in Japan and so so over here.

If you really think about it, there are probably between 30-50 aero kits for the 350z. However, only a handful of those become very popular and gradually becomes a "need" among 350z enthusiasts. Knowing this, I would not go into the business of designing aero kits unless my market research was adequate. Believe it or not, we do have a few minor things we've designed for other cars that are designed and developed from the ground up from our company. However, those products are successful because the consumer comes to us and asks, "this is what we NEED, can you make it?"

I think as a company grows, there's always a chance it evolves into something different than what it started off as. I have definitely considered designing our own aero kits. By this point, I do have somewhat of a "feel" for what would sell, but I would still never move forward with it unless our market research was done carefully. At this point in time, I strongly feel the cards on the table are not in our favor to do so. I can further explain...

We are generally known for making decent quality production pieces. However, designing and making are two totally different sports. I've heard that in Osaka, Japan there are ROWS of customization shops that produce quality prototypes. Because they are competing with other local talent, the are able to offer their services at competitive prices for companies who are interested in working with them. Because Japanese companies have ACCESS to reliable companies for outsourcing with services ranging from design, prototyping, mold making, to manufacturing ... they honestly have it much easier than we do. Because these services are available, I believe they are taking less risk. Heck, some of these companies don't even stock their own stuff. They make it on order greatly minimizing risk, which is very smart.

I personally can't even find a GOOD prototyper here in the states. The talent here is not as good as the talent over in Japan in my opinion. The Japanese are able to do it the old school way and because they are so good at it, it becomes very cost effective. I've seen prototypes from VIS and APC, which are very large well financed companies, that look like trash. The only good sources around are the the ones using high tech stuff, making it very expensive to get into, thus further increasing the risk.

In time, we will gradually figure out a way to deliver. For now, it's a major logistics problem. I strongly believe that in 1 to 2 years, we can produce aero parts that are better quality than any of the top manufacturers in Japan. However, these are things that will happen gradually as we are constantly learning and experimenting. It's definitely not an overnight thing and I don't expect it to be on the design side as well. All the pieces on the chess board must be favorably positioned in order to move forward without much risk. In the meantime, Shine will be a company that exists to fulfill needs and the current needs are quality replicas with reliable service. If those needs change overtime, we will be forced to adapt or simply cease to exist.

In regards to people selling replicas under "Amuse", I hope they are not intending to trick the buyer into thinking it's an original part from Amuse. I would understand if they are referring to the style, but if they are straight out lying... that wouldn't be cool. At the same time, it doesn't hurt to ask the person, "is this an original or a replica?" I'm sure an honest seller would tell you straight up what it is.

Regarding your topic of R&D cost, you mentioned original companies do extensive research and testing to develop the final product. I agree, however, I honestly feel that very few companies do wind tunnel testing. I think they already have enough experience to know what type of designs will increase performance. You also mentioned that 97% of the consumer buying the product can care less about that, which goes back to my original statement of cutting cost by evaluating what is needed and what is not needed. Vertex products sells very well and I know for damn sure they don't do wind tunnel testing. It all goes back to evaluating what the customer needs and whether your investments are allocated in the right places. GM lost 5 billion dollars last year. Does it mean we should pay $100,000 for a truck to cover for their mismanagement of resources? The consumer knows what he is willing to pay for a product and if you can deliver your product at that price and be profitable...more power to you. If you can't, that's all on you.

Regarding Generic drugs, it is not always the case that the original drug manufacturer has the right to the generics. There are plenty of generic drugs that are on the market after a patent expires that come from companies that are direct competition. A patent is only a law with a certain time frame. You are still undermining the original manufacturer by replicating their product, regardless if the patent has expired. It doesn't make it any more right or wrong. We still allow those type of things to occur to promote competition, which is my point for bringing up the generic drug example. The fact that the FDA has to approve the drug manufacturer makes it even worse because they are making sure the generic drug is EXACTLY the same as the original drug, further undermining the original drug manufacturer. Imagine if the FDA didn't have to make sure those drugs are exact..... everyone would be afraid of generics! That would be the perfect scenario for the original drug manufacturer wouldn't it? But because we live in a capitalistic world, we will ultimately promote competition to benefit the interests of the consumer.

 

way to many long post


PPL there is nothing wrong with replicas....Jezz get over yourselves

 

Replicas = good for consumers.

Replicas = bad for their original designers.

A lot of money goes into R&D and the design team, that's why it costs so much for the original product. Anyone can burn a CD but not everyone can make music.

Not taking sides but that's the truth.

 

Sometimez.... when daddy is away... I m@sturbatez to teh replicka p0rnz.

 

i just wanted to comment about the types of R&D for exterior aero parts..

the only body kit companies that i know of, or have seen data from actual wind tunnel testing because they can afford it are Cwest, Mugen, Nismo, Mitsubishi (Ralliart), and i've 'seen' the stroesk kit in front of a tunnel, whether or not they do actual testing thats another story.

however, with that being said, many jdm companies do test in real-world situations on the track (super taiyku, or the various class racing) , but w/o real gathered evidence of functionality other than driver input. Lap times, i would still say are questionable unless the environment was controlled and the only things changing are aero modifications (i.e. time-attack trials)

There are design cues in which an aftermarket company can incorporate into their product that would work fundamentally due to work done by other companies and S.A.E. testing (i.e. large openings in the front to allow for high pressure zone to direct air flow, gurney flaps to change pressure zones, NACA ducting, and Spoiler angles etc)

when people talk about R&D costs for aero products, i'd assume the majority of which (minus the big name companies) would be spending on a plug, the associated labor costs.., the subequent mold, and a few initial prototypes, but not actual on quantitative testing facilities.

if a company can produce a product superior to an "original" in either: manufacturing process, durability, materials application (i.e. FRP vs CF), or functionality improvements, then thats a winner. Then its ultimately up to the consumer to choose what they would prefer to purchase.

 

Shine & Chebosto: (If I quote each of your posts entirely, my response would be huge! )

I'm not sure if your responses are specifically directed at my posts, but I appreciate the input. Really... Unlike some, I am completely open about the fact (and freely admit) that I don't know everything... Clearly, parts of my posts were expressing frustrations (as an authentic parts owner) and other parts were simply inquisitive in nature. I actually like to hear the opposing views.

To be perfectly blunt, I have a hard time accepting some of the justifications for taking another's design. Maybe I'm too much of an idealist or maybe you can classify me as ignorant, but I think it's a little ironic to suggest that the "#1 Rule in Business Schooling" is to build a product that fulfills your customer's needs, when you, as a replicator, are not doing what is arguably the most important part of the manufacturing: the initial building. You're taking someone else's work, making some minor changes and selling it as your own. You mention that many businesses fail because they are building what they want as opposed to what the consumer wants. Well, isn't that part of becoming a great business? There are risks, there are failures, there is trial-and-error... Of course there is research and marketing studies done by the prominent businesses, but at the same time, being an innovator is not equivalent to being a mind-reader. It's pretty easy to take someone else's design, ask around to see if people will be interested, and then plan accordingly, is it not?

Also, when I suggested wind tunnel testing, it was more hyperbole than anything else (which is why I finished that thought stressing that it was not my intention to come across as a smart-@ss, because there is a morsel of sarcasm there). I don't actually think every company conducts tests in a vacuum of all their parts. I was just trying to make the point that there is research and development involved in the design of the "better" body kits out there and, quite honestly, did not know if Shine (or any othe replica producers out there, for that matter) did any type of testing at all.

In further response to your reference of generic drugs, you clearly state that the replica companies are "undermining the original manufacturer." I'm curious as to whether or not that would be the phrase you would use to describe what Shine does?

Believe it or not, I am a proponent of capitalism. I look at this as a bit different, however. As you mention, there are many, many body kits out there for the 350Z. So, using the example of Amuse, they do not have a monopoly over the body kit industry for 350Z's. If someone who desires a body kit does not like their quality or their price, they are free to purchase from another company. No? Amuse has the right to charge whatever they want and if people disagree then they can take their business elsewhere. I don't like the fact that it could be a company that, without reserve, stole their design. Again, that's just my own issue, because I realize replica companies aren't going anywhere.

On the same token, I almost feel as though Shine is the worst company to be centering this discussion upon, because, as far as I know or have heard, you make the best replicas. Period. If someone is going to buy a replica, I would not hesitate to suggest that it should be from Shine.

 

Stealing others ideas and selling it is wrong period. Im pretty sure Nismo and others companies have to spend more money hiring designers and such to make bodykits. Not only that , they have to spend money on marketing them. While replica companies dont have to spend as much because all they do is direct the customer to some pictures of the real deal at some show then ask for interest.

Pretty amazing how people think it's alright to do this, and companies who sells replica , come in this thread to defend themselves. Try to put yourself in their shoes.

People who buys the replica is not the issue, but people who defends replica with stupid excuses and call people who buys the authentic stuff stupid for spending that much money needs to grow up

 

I have to agree with this post... and all the other posts against replicas. It really sucks to work hard and spend lots of money designing an original product then have somebody take it w/o permission. Quite unfortunate as it seems the JDM companies have no way to defend this in the US AFAIK

 

We can close this thread now because ^^that says it ALL.

 

Very well put, short but it definitely gets the point across.

I am on the side of the Originator on this one. I have nothing but authentic parts on my car.

The way I see it is making a replica piece is like cheating on a test, The smarter kid studies his *** off to come up with the best possible answer and all you do is sit back and after he's done all the problem solving and testing of his answers you just sit there and copy it.

Granted that's a simplified version of what the reality of the situation is but that is ultimately what is going on here. The major manufacturer of the product is doing all the work on coming up with the design and blah blah blah this has all been mentioned already so no need in going into that aspect anymore but you get the point. So the replica makers even if they are of great quality are still doing everything the lazy way. They're stealing other peoples hard worked for design and such. The reality of the situation is that it really isn't right for people to get away with such things but such is life. The consumer on the other hand really doesn't see the hard work that goes into coming up with a new design and actually having to make that design work and put it in the works and get it going for them. They only see the end result which is the price tag and match that up with what the replica makers are selling it for. They can't seem to understand why the replica is selling for less than the original and they seem to be made of similar material. They see that the replica is of good grade or sometime do not care as long as they can get it for a cheaper price and may look like ****.

I've seen nothing but good thing come out of SHINE product wise and they have great costumer service as well, I think they have done alot for the community in regards to reaching out and meeting the needs of the consumer. I know they're just trying to make their dollar too because it really is all about the money whenever people replicate things, come on you really think there would be any replicas out there if the replicator didn't make any profit off it but did it just to help out the consumer?? Not likely, but they're also helping everyone out that can't actually afford authentic equipment on their cars to make their cars look good as well.

I can see it from both sides but I personally will always choose the side of Authenticity. There's also a lot more respect out there in the community that goes towards someone taking the time to actually get the authentic pieces as well.

 

and people wonder why replicas are made.


https://my350z.com/forum/exterior-and-interior/320854-new-mines-dry-carbon-release.html

 

his take on making dual ducts..

correct me if im wrong. are you making replicas of Varis ones or did you come up w/ your own design? youve put yourself on a very slippery slope. imo.