Do you HAVE to water sand a car after painting?
Do you HAVE to water sand a car after painting?
Followup to this thread:
https://my350z.com/forum/exterior-in...-we-speak.html
They've re-painted the car and are calling me to pick it up, claiming it doesn't need to be water sanded after. Should I tell them that I won't pick it up until they do it? Because earlier, someone mentioned that it HAS to be done.
UPDATE: Urgent. Please help - read post #5 below.
https://my350z.com/forum/exterior-in...-we-speak.html
They've re-painted the car and are calling me to pick it up, claiming it doesn't need to be water sanded after. Should I tell them that I won't pick it up until they do it? Because earlier, someone mentioned that it HAS to be done.
UPDATE: Urgent. Please help - read post #5 below.
Last edited by d!abolic; Sep 2, 2008 at 06:58 PM.
Did they clear coat the car? you can't wet sand out paint runs after a clear coat. They would have to reshoot the clear. Sounds like someone in the paint shop realized that the painter screwed up the job and is giving you a repaint. You don't have to wet sand. The clear coat should provide the gloss. Only if there is major orange peel. Our cars came with orange peel from the factory and was a big issue to early owners. If the car looks good, don't push for the wet sanding. They may sand through the clear coat and you will have to get it repainted again.
Last edited by whitetrack; Sep 2, 2008 at 03:46 PM.
Alright, the nightmare continues. Went there today and they tried to get me to take the car. As you can already guess, I didn't. They did repaint (some of?) it, but a number of major issues. Aside from small, bs fixes like paint on my mirror, I'll list the serious ones:
1) there are dust particles everywhere - not as bad as before, but a few on every panel. Big ones. There are a few on the hood that you can see from feet away. I brought a guy with me who does paint work and he told me you can't buff those out; judging by their size, I think he may be right.
2) the paint looks good from 10ft away, but feels uneven to the touch and appears to distort reflections, making them look like frosted glass. In some areas, you can even make out different sprays/strokes of the gun - you can make out one layer of tiny paint particles on top of another.
3) Not that the paint job needed a nail in it's coffin, but you can see a buffed-out paint run, around 1.5 ft long, on the front tip of the hood. You can barely see it, but it's definitely there once you look closer.
4) the front/rear lips were apparently simply glued/bolted to the front/rear bumpers: they weren't molded on. Should they have molded them on? Because there are big gaps/lines where they meet the original body and quite frankly, it looks like ****. There's a 1/4" gap around the bottom rear reverse light, though this is the most extreme example. Also, in one spot, you can somewhat make out a screw cap underneath the paint/primer.
5) when you open the doors, you can see the top of the urethane skirt wrapped underneath and around the car and bolted with a row of about 10 bolts (plainly visible) to the body of the car in the area where the inside of the door meets the body when it's closed. On top of this, the areas between the screws don't seem to be very well attached - you could almost stick a finger inbetween. The whole attachment looks really makeshift.
Needless to say, I was in shock and pretty angry. I can't believe they actually thought I'd pay $2500 and drive out in that. It looked like a cheap, 3rd rate Civic job. I gave them two days, and said that if I return Thursday and see anymore **** (for the record, this is their 2nd time repainting the car because they ****ed up the original coat with 6 paint runs and over 100 dust particles), I'm taking the car to someone who's not a complete idiot and paying them nothing. Personal feelings aside though, what do I do? Here's what they told me about how they plan to deal with these issues by Thursday:2) the paint looks good from 10ft away, but feels uneven to the touch and appears to distort reflections, making them look like frosted glass. In some areas, you can even make out different sprays/strokes of the gun - you can make out one layer of tiny paint particles on top of another.
3) Not that the paint job needed a nail in it's coffin, but you can see a buffed-out paint run, around 1.5 ft long, on the front tip of the hood. You can barely see it, but it's definitely there once you look closer.
4) the front/rear lips were apparently simply glued/bolted to the front/rear bumpers: they weren't molded on. Should they have molded them on? Because there are big gaps/lines where they meet the original body and quite frankly, it looks like ****. There's a 1/4" gap around the bottom rear reverse light, though this is the most extreme example. Also, in one spot, you can somewhat make out a screw cap underneath the paint/primer.
5) when you open the doors, you can see the top of the urethane skirt wrapped underneath and around the car and bolted with a row of about 10 bolts (plainly visible) to the body of the car in the area where the inside of the door meets the body when it's closed. On top of this, the areas between the screws don't seem to be very well attached - you could almost stick a finger inbetween. The whole attachment looks really makeshift.
1) Dust particles to be buffed out, all of them. Is this realistic? Some of the particles seemed really big and my friend from another shop seemed dead-on certain that this won't be possible.
2) Paint to be wetsanded / buffed, which will fix both the frosted-glass reflection effect and the unevenness. How about this - can it be done? I understand that wetsanding should accomplish a lot, but my friend also said that you should have 3+ coats of clear for it, and these guys only used 2. Also, can buffing/wetsanding fix the frosted glass reflection thing?
3) They promise to buff this out. Can a run of that length really be buffed out (any further)? How does this generally work? It's really barely visible, but definitely there. This is probably the only thing that I could actually live with if I had to. The rest is just blatantly visible.
2) Paint to be wetsanded / buffed, which will fix both the frosted-glass reflection effect and the unevenness. How about this - can it be done? I understand that wetsanding should accomplish a lot, but my friend also said that you should have 3+ coats of clear for it, and these guys only used 2. Also, can buffing/wetsanding fix the frosted glass reflection thing?
3) They promise to buff this out. Can a run of that length really be buffed out (any further)? How does this generally work? It's really barely visible, but definitely there. This is probably the only thing that I could actually live with if I had to. The rest is just blatantly visible.
4) They claim that this is the only way to do it properly and that all/most kits are generally attached this way. Apparently, it's the urethane kit's problem. They said that if they were to mould/fill/paint the areas where the kit meets the body, they would eventually crack. This sounds like ******** - this part of the job probably pisses me off the most. Those edges look really, and I mean really ****. Some area ok but most.. oh, man. The kit looks like it was glued on by superglue by a kid - you can tell from 10ft away where the lips end and the body begins. Ugghh. a) Should I push for them to mould everything in and repaint the bumpers? b) How do they fix the 1/4" gap around the reverse light? c) Do I push to have them cover/mask the top of the screw that you can make out from underneath the paint and paint over it again?
5) They claim that this is the only way to do it, period. Is it really? I never thought that I'd see a row of bright bolts attaching the skirt to my body when I open the door. It looks really out of place. Not only that, but the areas inbetween the bolts aren't even snug to the body. It looks hideous.
That's that. Thank you for reading this far. If you can, please answer the questions above. I'm really lost here - this is my baby and I'm paying top dollar to have the work done right. I really feel like I'm getting shafted here. On top of all that, please answer this one: what the hell do I do? Are these guys gonna be able to fix it? Do I pay them some of the money and take the car to another place? Do I pay them nothing? Am I allowed to just take it from there and then fight them in court? What do I do?
5) They claim that this is the only way to do it, period. Is it really? I never thought that I'd see a row of bright bolts attaching the skirt to my body when I open the door. It looks really out of place. Not only that, but the areas inbetween the bolts aren't even snug to the body. It looks hideous.
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man i would cut your loses and get your car and take it some place else and have it done right....Don't pay them anything!!! the work was not done up to standard and doesn't deserve payment....you have any pics of this hack job??
I know how you feel man...i have my car at the shop right now too and it seems theyre giving me the runaround sometimes....
I got the same orangepeel clearcoat problem. This time i told the guy and he said it needs to be wetsanded and buffed out. I hope they do it this time..
Anyways good luck man and hope everything turns out good!
Did you get an estimate in writing before you left the car? was it detailed or generic? what did it say? had you seen their work before up close?
This was $2500 to fit a kit and paint the whole car? which kit?
As far as how many coats of clear, vs paint, it all depends on the paint they used. Paint is designed to be used as a system - there are cheap systems, and very expensive systems, like anything else in this world. The cheaper stuff can look very very good, the expensive stuff, if done correctly, can look flawless. There can actually be a huge difference in the final product based on the processes/materials used. Just like good food vs crappy food. The more expensive the material, generally speaking, the less of it you have to achieve a certain result. But with any system, it's important they follow the manufacturers suggestions to a "T", and use the suggested supplementals such as activators, hardeners, etc. Paint is a chemical at the end of the day, and each ingredient in the process is designed to be used at a certain temp/humidity, shot at a certain pressure, in certain conditions, within certain time intervals, etc.
As far as wetsanding, it goes without saying - the more the car is wetsanded by an experienced person, the better it will look. I don't care if you've got a $300k downdraft booth, using Spies-Hecker paint and the very best gun on the planet and it's being painted by gods gift to painting. Wetsanding, which is something done in stages, always, always helps. But wetsanding is time consuming - and tedious. This is where alot of the labor costs can come from.
This thread and the one that preceded it is exactly why you can almost never ask "how much should it cost to paint my car" - there are just too many variables at stake to really deliver a solid answer.
This was $2500 to fit a kit and paint the whole car? which kit?
As far as how many coats of clear, vs paint, it all depends on the paint they used. Paint is designed to be used as a system - there are cheap systems, and very expensive systems, like anything else in this world. The cheaper stuff can look very very good, the expensive stuff, if done correctly, can look flawless. There can actually be a huge difference in the final product based on the processes/materials used. Just like good food vs crappy food. The more expensive the material, generally speaking, the less of it you have to achieve a certain result. But with any system, it's important they follow the manufacturers suggestions to a "T", and use the suggested supplementals such as activators, hardeners, etc. Paint is a chemical at the end of the day, and each ingredient in the process is designed to be used at a certain temp/humidity, shot at a certain pressure, in certain conditions, within certain time intervals, etc.
As far as wetsanding, it goes without saying - the more the car is wetsanded by an experienced person, the better it will look. I don't care if you've got a $300k downdraft booth, using Spies-Hecker paint and the very best gun on the planet and it's being painted by gods gift to painting. Wetsanding, which is something done in stages, always, always helps. But wetsanding is time consuming - and tedious. This is where alot of the labor costs can come from.
This thread and the one that preceded it is exactly why you can almost never ask "how much should it cost to paint my car" - there are just too many variables at stake to really deliver a solid answer.
$2500 to paint the whole car and put on an INGS LX replica urethane kit. Do you think you could please answer the questions I have in post #5 - I'm really clueless about whether they'll be able to buff stuff out, about the fitment, etc. Please read and answer the questions if you can. Thanks so much!!
Originally Posted by Z1 Performance
Did you get an estimate in writing before you left the car? was it detailed or generic? what did it say? had you seen their work before up close?
This was $2500 to fit a kit and paint the whole car? which kit?
As far as how many coats of clear, vs paint, it all depends on the paint they used. Paint is designed to be used as a system - there are cheap systems, and very expensive systems, like anything else in this world. The cheaper stuff can look very very good, the expensive stuff, if done correctly, can look flawless. There can actually be a huge difference in the final product based on the processes/materials used. Just like good food vs crappy food. The more expensive the material, generally speaking, the less of it you have to achieve a certain result. But with any system, it's important they follow the manufacturers suggestions to a "T", and use the suggested supplementals such as activators, hardeners, etc. Paint is a chemical at the end of the day, and each ingredient in the process is designed to be used at a certain temp/humidity, shot at a certain pressure, in certain conditions, within certain time intervals, etc.
As far as wetsanding, it goes without saying - the more the car is wetsanded by an experienced person, the better it will look. I don't care if you've got a $300k downdraft booth, using Spies-Hecker paint and the very best gun on the planet and it's being painted by gods gift to painting. Wetsanding, which is something done in stages, always, always helps. But wetsanding is time consuming - and tedious. This is where alot of the labor costs can come from.
This thread and the one that preceded it is exactly why you can almost never ask "how much should it cost to paint my car" - there are just too many variables at stake to really deliver a solid answer.
This was $2500 to fit a kit and paint the whole car? which kit?
As far as how many coats of clear, vs paint, it all depends on the paint they used. Paint is designed to be used as a system - there are cheap systems, and very expensive systems, like anything else in this world. The cheaper stuff can look very very good, the expensive stuff, if done correctly, can look flawless. There can actually be a huge difference in the final product based on the processes/materials used. Just like good food vs crappy food. The more expensive the material, generally speaking, the less of it you have to achieve a certain result. But with any system, it's important they follow the manufacturers suggestions to a "T", and use the suggested supplementals such as activators, hardeners, etc. Paint is a chemical at the end of the day, and each ingredient in the process is designed to be used at a certain temp/humidity, shot at a certain pressure, in certain conditions, within certain time intervals, etc.
As far as wetsanding, it goes without saying - the more the car is wetsanded by an experienced person, the better it will look. I don't care if you've got a $300k downdraft booth, using Spies-Hecker paint and the very best gun on the planet and it's being painted by gods gift to painting. Wetsanding, which is something done in stages, always, always helps. But wetsanding is time consuming - and tedious. This is where alot of the labor costs can come from.
This thread and the one that preceded it is exactly why you can almost never ask "how much should it cost to paint my car" - there are just too many variables at stake to really deliver a solid answer.
As far as #5, no sideskirt attaches like that since that would require drilling extra holes. Every sideskirt I have ever seen attaches the same exact way, via bolts (I think they are 10mm) underneath the car, and 2 screws along the inside edge of the body of the car (visible when you open the door), just under the sill plate. At the back edge of the skirt, there are 2 large plastic pushclips and at the front of the skirt there is, I think, 1 small self tapping screw. The factory skirts also use push clips as I recall at this inside door edge too. Sounds to me like your skirts didn't fit well at all, and to make it work, they drilled.
I don't want to come off like a jerk, so don't take what I am about to say this way...I am just being honest and to the point. You got a replica kit (of unknown origin/quality), and had a body shop fit it and paint it, and the whole rest of the car for $2500. I guess you didn't go to other area shops to get estimates, or if you did, you were going to the wrong shops in the first place.
I don't own a bodyshop, so I don't know what a shop charges for such work. I am positive you're going to get a bunch of people saying they would pay anywhere from $2k to $10k to paint the car. What I am going to tell you is my own story since I did this last year:
Last year, after a few unsuccessful attempts at matching Silverstone (damn near impossible without a full tint bank at your disposal), I decided to paint my whole car here at the shop. We have an employee with tons of body shop experience, and we both knew going in what he expected and what I expected (I'm super **** retentive when it comes to the car!) I knew exactly how the car would come out, and he knew exactly how much labor he was going to be involved in. I Kept the same color, and I only had 2 tiny, tiny door dings, so basically zero body work. I did a new hood, which we did a lot of extra custom work too (but I won't factor that work into the pricing I'm about to give you), new front bumper, new sideskirts. I kept my spoiler and my rear valence the same. If I was paying a body shop, let's say $90 an hour (which is probably normal), my labor alone would have been $9000.00 it was 100 hours of labor from start to finish, not including the custom work we did to the hood (which was another 30 or so hours). 100 hours sounds like alot I know, but again, we both discussed this in advance before we moved ahead. I wanted a better than factory paint job. I wanted 0 orange peel, 0 imperfections. Now, I am sure alot of body shops don't go straight book for a job like this, so let's say they felt really nice and did it for $7000.00. This is straight labor - no materials, and does not include the cost of the kit either. I purchased everything we used on my car, from the sandpaper, to the paint, to the tapes we used, etc. We already had the guns (which were freaking expensive too - nearly $500 each!). Materials cost me about $1000 as I recall. Now, I used a pretty expensive paint system when I did my car, so substituting a different brand/system would definitely alter the cost.
Now, I know $2500 doesn't grow on trees and that it's not a small amount of money. But $2500 to fit a replica body kit, and to paint an entire car - I would have run for the hills if that was a quote a shop gave me, because that tells you they are not using good materials, and they are not going to do a very careful job at any part...from masking, to prepping, to painting, to post paint. You realistically should have expected to pay 2 x, and that's still on the low end (in my opinion). Granted, body shop pricing can vary alot by location, but I'd pretty much bet that if you quoted the same job at top shops in various major metropolitan areas of the US and Canada, they are not going to differ all that significantly (I'd guess maybe a 10% spread). Alot of bodyshops don't even want to touch a car with an aftermarket kit - and alot of times, I can't blame them.
The long and short of it is, I hope you got a detailed list of what they were going to do, in writing and that you can work something out so that you and the shop are both satisfied in the end - it sounds to me like you need to have a sit down with the owner and go over what your expectations were, and where you're at now. Unfortunately it's a conversation you should have had before the work started, but it is what it is now. Good luck, let us know how it turns out
I don't want to come off like a jerk, so don't take what I am about to say this way...I am just being honest and to the point. You got a replica kit (of unknown origin/quality), and had a body shop fit it and paint it, and the whole rest of the car for $2500. I guess you didn't go to other area shops to get estimates, or if you did, you were going to the wrong shops in the first place.
I don't own a bodyshop, so I don't know what a shop charges for such work. I am positive you're going to get a bunch of people saying they would pay anywhere from $2k to $10k to paint the car. What I am going to tell you is my own story since I did this last year:
Last year, after a few unsuccessful attempts at matching Silverstone (damn near impossible without a full tint bank at your disposal), I decided to paint my whole car here at the shop. We have an employee with tons of body shop experience, and we both knew going in what he expected and what I expected (I'm super **** retentive when it comes to the car!) I knew exactly how the car would come out, and he knew exactly how much labor he was going to be involved in. I Kept the same color, and I only had 2 tiny, tiny door dings, so basically zero body work. I did a new hood, which we did a lot of extra custom work too (but I won't factor that work into the pricing I'm about to give you), new front bumper, new sideskirts. I kept my spoiler and my rear valence the same. If I was paying a body shop, let's say $90 an hour (which is probably normal), my labor alone would have been $9000.00 it was 100 hours of labor from start to finish, not including the custom work we did to the hood (which was another 30 or so hours). 100 hours sounds like alot I know, but again, we both discussed this in advance before we moved ahead. I wanted a better than factory paint job. I wanted 0 orange peel, 0 imperfections. Now, I am sure alot of body shops don't go straight book for a job like this, so let's say they felt really nice and did it for $7000.00. This is straight labor - no materials, and does not include the cost of the kit either. I purchased everything we used on my car, from the sandpaper, to the paint, to the tapes we used, etc. We already had the guns (which were freaking expensive too - nearly $500 each!). Materials cost me about $1000 as I recall. Now, I used a pretty expensive paint system when I did my car, so substituting a different brand/system would definitely alter the cost.
Now, I know $2500 doesn't grow on trees and that it's not a small amount of money. But $2500 to fit a replica body kit, and to paint an entire car - I would have run for the hills if that was a quote a shop gave me, because that tells you they are not using good materials, and they are not going to do a very careful job at any part...from masking, to prepping, to painting, to post paint. You realistically should have expected to pay 2 x, and that's still on the low end (in my opinion). Granted, body shop pricing can vary alot by location, but I'd pretty much bet that if you quoted the same job at top shops in various major metropolitan areas of the US and Canada, they are not going to differ all that significantly (I'd guess maybe a 10% spread). Alot of bodyshops don't even want to touch a car with an aftermarket kit - and alot of times, I can't blame them.
The long and short of it is, I hope you got a detailed list of what they were going to do, in writing and that you can work something out so that you and the shop are both satisfied in the end - it sounds to me like you need to have a sit down with the owner and go over what your expectations were, and where you're at now. Unfortunately it's a conversation you should have had before the work started, but it is what it is now. Good luck, let us know how it turns out
The particles may be able to be sanded down, given the paint is thick enough. But if the particles are thick or big, chances are that they're deep in the paint, and removal of the particles will leave some indents in the paint surface.
The frosted glass effect you keep referring to is known as "orange peel", since it resembles the skin of... well... and orange. This can be wetsanded down to a smooth, glossy finish. It's good to have at least 3 coats of topcoat for this.
They're crappy paintjob and their poor installation of the lip is a sign to me that the bodyshop doesn't fully know what they're doing. They may do simple repairs for everyday customers, but they seem to be clueless on your car.
You can try to sue for your money back and the cost to repaint the car at a different reputable location, but I don't know if that will work.
If you do go looking for a new body shop... Look for one that has a paint booth with a controlled environment, a downdraft airflow setup, and possibly a heated booth to "bake" on the paint.
The frosted glass effect you keep referring to is known as "orange peel", since it resembles the skin of... well... and orange. This can be wetsanded down to a smooth, glossy finish. It's good to have at least 3 coats of topcoat for this.
They're crappy paintjob and their poor installation of the lip is a sign to me that the bodyshop doesn't fully know what they're doing. They may do simple repairs for everyday customers, but they seem to be clueless on your car.
You can try to sue for your money back and the cost to repaint the car at a different reputable location, but I don't know if that will work.
If you do go looking for a new body shop... Look for one that has a paint booth with a controlled environment, a downdraft airflow setup, and possibly a heated booth to "bake" on the paint.
[QUOTE=Z1 Performance] I don't care if you've got a $300k downdraft booth, using Spies-Hecker paint and the very best gun on the planet and it's being painted by gods gift to painting. QUOTE]
Sikkens>Spies
Sorry had to do it.
Sikkens>Spies
Sorry had to do it.
for 2500 dollars... i wouldnt expect perfection. they arent going to mold on the kit unless you asked them, and for 2500 dollars again.... you get what you pay for. there is a reason why people pay to play.
At my shop full paints were 4 or 5k easy but we took entire car apart and pulled glass if we had to. Buff car then reassemble. Sounds like a hack shop combined with bad fitment of replica parts. Thats the harsh reality of imitation parts. Bring to another shop and show them... then sue. A good detail shop will be able to wet sand and buff it assuming they didnt spray 1 shitty coat on.
What color is your car?
Post pics and not from a camera phone. We wanna see what your looking at.
What color is your car?
Post pics and not from a camera phone. We wanna see what your looking at.