Ok here is the deal....

Z1 made many many mistakes with my engine. I just do not see how there are any other reasons for the pistons to slap as much as they did (even under full throttle and high temps) unless they bored out the walls way off spec. Arias recommends .003 piston-to-wall clearance. that's what we have done now, and the pistons slap is noticeable only for the first 3 minutes... and it is VERY mild comapred to Z1's build. Not only did they not check for the piston-to-oil jet clearance correctly, they botched the job many other ways.

Sharif, sorry to steal your thread here, hope oyu forgive me. Just look at the pictures here:






Look above, They sold me a damaged block and told me nothing baout it. When i later asked Lorca about it, he said that that's what buying a core is, you can't expect it to be perfect. I was speechless... Look at how they balanced the pistons... I really do not know what else to say. I think that they handled by case very incompetently, and at the end of hte day did not admit any responsibility here, not even the 30% that I asked them to cover, as Arias covered everything else..

BTW, the crank was not balanced correctly either, which is why i was seeing major vibrations at different places in the rpm band...

Gurgen

 

Yeah, Berri filled me on the many sloppy and careless elements of the install. that's why I have not recommened Z1 to anyone else when they ask where to send their motors for rebuild. I still cant believe how they treated you...especially after all of the money you spent there.

I have had enough of Z1.....and I posted this on another thread..but nobody even noticed it becuase it was buried on the last line of one of the pages.

Gurgen, you are a very good friend of mine, and it really makes me furious when I think about this. The damaged block thing is just unconscionable in my opinion. Here is what I posted earlier.



He is not selling the piston...it was a protype that he made at the request of a customer...one of the guys in my GB wanted that design.

Lorca, why do you never pass on the opporunity to bash Arias?

First of all, I wouldnt exactly say that you went public with the clearance issue. I talked to Berry the very first day we heard about one of YOUR engines being damaged by the piston design. You didnt "uncover" the issue until one your customer's engines was damaged after they installed and started it up! You just beat me to the punch on posting the outcome. And to imply that me or Arias would keep the clearance issue private is absolutely proposterous

Second,it is interesting to note that your company failed to take ANY responsibility for the damaged motor, even though a good competent machine shop would have caught the tight clearance issue. You essentially told the customer to f'off...after spending a couple thousand or whatever on the rebuild labor. Not to mention there were other errors in your engine assembly process...such as balancing the pistons by drilling the center of the piston...vs. the meaty sides of the piston. And the tops of your customers pistons were gauged and essentially looked they they were dropped or damaged. I saw pics of the pistons after you put them in the block....guess you figured nobody would open up the motor again to see your sloppy work???

Third, Arias has stood 100% stood behind their error, and corrected everyone's pistons for no charge (even covered shipping both ways) and even offered compensation to one person for their added incured expense.

I am not going to bring names into this discussion to protect their privacy....but Lorca....give me a break here. Just becuase YOU dont sell Arias pistons, you make disparaging comments about them. That is really immature in my opinion, and a poor business practice. Yes, I sell Arias pistons, but I have NEVER critisized any other pistons manufacurer, or any other vendor of pistons.

Sorry for the flame....but this is how I feel. IMHO, you would be the LAST shop I would ever bring my engine into...which is the main reason I am getting my engine done elsewhere.

 

Sharif.....

I couldn't have said it better myself. I paid Z1 money to get an engine which i should just put in and be done with!!!!!!
this is rediculous... Of course they did not expect anyone to open up and check their work...

Also, here is the pic of the scuffing:





Also, as another indicator of how careless Z1 was (notthe machine shop they used) is that they put the #5 marked (by the balancing shop) rod/piston assembly into the #6 cylinder , and vice versa. Of course, i don't have pictorial proof of this, but those people to whom my word is good will believe me i am sure, and not Z1.

Gurgen

 

Maybe create a new thread so everyone sees this info?

 

I agree with mchapman.

I was planning on Z1 Motorsports to do my engine and turbo build up...guess i'm going to have to reconsider. Sharif or gurgen, any suggestions?

 

Wow! That was brutal. Obviously I completely disagree with everything mentioned, and I'll be glad to explain away all of that to anyone considering one of our engine builds.
Gurgen and Gino are feeding off each other. Gurgen has had a lot of problems with his car due to other proven issues (tuning, Arias, etc) and he is looking to place blame. We aren't covering failures that wouldn't be considered our responsibility by industry experts. We didn't even provide the parts for his engine build. Gino is upset because several months ago we yanked our offer/sponsorship to build his motor at the great deal considering he had actually become a competitor to Z1 in parts sales.
No product or workmanship from Z1 contributed to any of Gurgen's multiple failures. He's pulling stuff up that isn't even pertinent. We have posts on my350z that reinforce our position on the entire oil squirter issue. The comments that have been made regarding some of the machining practices, have been addressed. Z1 has never actually experienced any problems or failures due to these practices and upon investigation have been proven to be standard practices in the performance automotive machining industry. Tolerances are all set to manufacturers specs.

We didn't install his motor and had some of these various problems for reasons unrelated to Z1 product or workmanship. With that said I have no further comments on this situation.
We are currently building some other VQ's that will be ready in the near future. If we supply the parts, we build it, and install it, then we don't have legitimate excuses. Nothing I say here will matter at this point. We will prove ourselves in due time.

 

Russell..who is Gino? If you are refering to me..Sharif...then what you are saying is an outright lie...again.

I am assuming you are refering to me, not Gino. Anyways, I did approach you for a sponsorship, but decided to do the job locally. You never yanked anything. I ELECTED not to do my car with you. I challenge you to produce one email or note you sent me indicating that you were yanking anything. Your statement is a flat out lie. And in terms of being a competitor to you, I dont think that is the case, becuase I sell Pauter and Arias...not Carillo and Wiseco. Laurca has even contacted me about buying Pauter rods, and I also have contacted him about buying Carillo rods. I even went so far as to refer some of my people to you to buy the Carillo rods..until I found out the A-Beams you are selling are not suitable for F/I high power applications. Laurca found this out as well, and doesnt recommend that A-Beams as well.

Russell, the truth is that you guys really messed up on Gurgen's motor. YES, I agree that Arias was partly to blame, and they stepped up to fix the situation. Your company did nothing for Gurgen, and essentially told him to "speak to my lawyer:. All I can say is that you are harvesting the badwill that you planted by screwing with probably one of the most knowledgable and respected member of the 350Z community...GURGEN.

And Gurgen has NEVER blamed you for the bad tuning...on his second motor. We are talking about the FIRST motor that you so poorly put together....and where you sold him a damaged and repaired block. It's embarrassing.....

nis350ztt, I would recommend SGP Racing or C-J Motorsports for your rebuild. They are the real deal...and you wont be dissapointed. I dont even want to recommend my sponsor shop, CP Racing, until I complete the rebuild and can vouch for the quality of their work. Only until I am completely satisfied, will I be recommending them.

 

Your 'defense' speaks for itself, as you addressed non of the issues at hand.

Who in the world blamed for my engine failure? That was tuning, and frankly i would pay money to get rid of that ugly piston slap that i had on your first motor.

It's also pretty handy that you just ignored the fact about the damaged block. I guess you are not denying selling it to me, as you yourself admitted that you guys welded on that piece yourself (lorca has told me this over the phone).

Also, another thing, and I am paraphrasing Lorca here: When i asked him on the phone why would you not ceck the clearance between the oil jets and the piston skirt, he said something like: -- It's not part of normal engine building. If we had to check EVERY SINGLE tolerance on an engine when we build it, it would cost $3000+ (don't rememberthe exact amount) to build every engine -- . Well, all I gotta say is that it's, I am sure, not something your customers think when they bring you a project. They DO in fact hope that you wil lcheck EVERYTHING, including every single clearance on an engine when you build it. We are not talking about some microscopic/fatigue cracks or whenther the aluminum casting was porous on a given block, it's something as simple as oil jets, one of the most obvious things in the way of the piston skirt.

As far as balancing is concerned, I would not do it this way... but I guess there is still a chance that it does not matter.... There was only about .140" thickness left at the bottom of those drillings.

Also, what was the engine bored to? what was the final bore? This would show at least what the cylinder-to-wall clearance is in your original build.

Gurgen

Gurgen

 

Sharif,

After a lengthy discussion with Russell, I am sorry to say that we are no longer in a position to offer you the sponsorship we previously discussed. We would still like to build your motor and do the install but it would be at our regular prices.

Thanks,


Lorca Divale

Z1 Motorsports
www.300zx.com

2877 Carrollton / Villa Rica HWY
Carrollton, GA 30116
770-838-7777 x302
770-832-9253

Check out pics of our new location here!
http://www.z1motorsports.com/forum/Z's%20etc/Events/Z1opening10-16-04
----- Original Message -----
From: John Smith
To: Lorca Divale
Sent: Friday, November 05, 2004 4:46 PM
Subject: It's Sharif


How much does those clutches typically cost? Are there different versions? Twin, triple, different pressure plates?

Call me and run through the options...I just left you a message on your cell

Mine is 626-485-2100

Lorca Divale <Lorca@300ZX.com> wrote:
Strange, my box only shows 37% full but I keep getting these messages that
its full?

Just got back from SEMA this morning at 3am. Absolutely amazing show.
Talked extensively with APS (David will be visiting us next wednsday),
GReddy, Garrett, Carrillo, CP, JE, Arias, Wiseco, HKS, Turbonetics, PE,
Mackin (Rays), A'Pexi, Hotchkis, etc etc etc.

To answer your question, the clutches that we recomend are made by RPS and
the carbon/carbon is an awesome clutch/flywheel combo. Russell has it on
his 1051rwhp Z32 and slips it all day long with nearly stock pedal feel.

I spoke with our service manager and he said you can bring the car in
anytime after December 15th. I will warn you and I'm sure you know that
things tend to take laonger around the hollidays.

Later,

Lorca Divale

Z1 Motorsports
www.300zx.com

2877 Carrollton / Villa Rica HWY
Carrollton, GA 30116
770-838-7777 x302
770-832-9253
----- Original Message -----
From: "gq_626"
To:
Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 7:57 PM
Subject: your mailbox was fulll


> This is a message from gq_626 at MY350Z.COM Forums (
https://my350z.com/forum/index.php ). The MY350Z.COM Forums owners cannot
accept any responsibility for the contents of the email.
>
> To email gq_626, you can use this online form:
> https://my350z.com/forum/member.php?...m&userid=30547
>
> OR, by email:
> mailto:kneedown1974@yahoo.com
>
> This is the message:
>
> Lorca...I remember you had mentioned a twin disc carbon clutch that you
really liked. I believe it was ATS??? or ATC?? ot ACT?? I have no clue.
>
>
>
> Anyways...after a thorough deliberation, I've decided that I want to throw
a twin disc carbon clutch setup into my build. Exedy,ATS...whatever if you
have experience with. . I have heard nothing but good things about the
carbon carbon twin discs.
>
>
>
> I guess I will just sell the Clutchmaster Stage III I have sitting on my
shelf.

 

gq_626 wrote on 10-31-2004 11:14 AM:
I have decided to do it! I have been extrememly busy with work...thanks for understanding.

Check with your service manager on when you can bring the car in. Do you guys slow down around Christmas Time..and vacations...and that type of thing? If so, lets plan it after the holiday.

I am definately doing the build at your shop.

 

Lorca,



After a lot of thinking overnight, I do agree with the fact that the problem has definitely started with Arias. They certainly admitted the problem and will be modifying even the existing pistons out there. Whether Z1 should have caught this or not, or whether the clearance was or was not there is definitely not that relevant here, as the root of the problem was the design of the skirt.



However, look at this from my perspective. I paid a lot of money to have a tested product assembled and delivered to me so that it would not require another week of heartache and additional $2000 to get working, and that is assuming. I was only sincere in communicating my attitude toward this ongoing matter, but at the end of the day have a $2000 bill that I am not responsible for. What would you think if you were in my shoes?



Lorca, I will get back to you or Russell about the rest of the engine build.



Gurgen




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Lorca Divale [mailto:Lorca@300ZX.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 7:47 AM
To: Gurgen Bagdasarian
Cc: Beeri
Subject: Re: Potential problems with 350 pistons



Gurgen,



I hate to say this but there really are no other issues besides the piston hitting the oil squirters. I cannot tell you what you saw when your motor was rotated (after being run at operating [temperature]) but I can tell you that yesterday I was present when the exact same components were rotated in a motor that has yet to be installed and there was NO interference or contact with the oil squirters.



With regards to the pictures I sent, they are for reference purposes only because the actual skirt depth is measured in relation to the height of the wristpin, not the face of the piston as is the reference point in the pictures since they were all sitting on the desk. As Beeri acknowledged in his email to me, "[t]he skirts on our pistons are a little bit longer than stock, but not long enough to create any throuble..." Obviously this statement was only partially accurate because the longer skirts did create trouble in this case.



Maybe it is my legal background but it seems to me that the rest of the issues you have raised are completely irrelevant to the problem at hand. If the thickness of the piston face or the "scuffs" and "tiny impact indentations" created this problem then there would be something to discuss. Since they obviously did not create this problem then they are not an issue here.



The only issue is this; you provided a product that was defective from the manufacturer and it caused damage to your motor. Period. It is unfortunate that the defect was not made evident until the motor reached normal operating [temperature], but that has nothing to do with Z1. You said two things that jump out here, "...even if it was not their [Z1's] fault to begin with" and "Arias has agreed to modify the current set of pistons to fit the motor". It clearly is not Z1's fault that these pistons are defective and Arias' agreement to "the current set of pistons to fit in the motor" is a clear acknowledgement of the defect. In legal terms Arias was negligent in putting this defective product on the market and they are fully aware of the damage and expense that a poorly designed piston can cause.



I am sure that Arias has informed you of their warranty policy so I will attach a copy of ours. I really regret that things have come to this but it seems like the issues have become clouded by somebody's attempt to lay blame. Z1 stands behind the machine work performed on its behalf. Z1 does not stand behind the products of other companies, especially when they are provided by the customer.



Unfortunately I have hearings to attend in Florida for the rest of the week so I will not be available by telephone. If you need to speak with someone you can talk with Russell at 770-838-7777 x301, however at this point I suggest that all correspondence be in writing with copies to all the interested parties.



Thank you,



Lorca Divale

 

Lorca..you never sent me this note above...another lie.

I wish I saved my messages, but I informed YOU that I found a better price at a local shop, and you offered to even lower your price some more. (you said..."I have big plans for your car" You are making this stuff up..and its really sad. I just stopped contacting you, after I called you for a price on the ATS clutch, and you never called back.

That, coupled with your cocky attitude on the boards, and then the Gurgen situation.....I am so glad I never brought my car to your shop.

I mean common....how long have you had Bini2's car???? He blew it up in Sept..and now it is Feb. At least FIVE MONTHS to rebulid a motor? And did you mention to Gurgen that his motor was the FIRST 350Z motor you ever built up?

Like I said earlier..I have never talked negatively about any shop or vendor, and it doesnt benifit me at all to post this. It's the truth....what do I have to gain from this???? I have great relations with all the other vendors and shops on this site....you dont see me posting negatives about them. I just dont want others to go through the hell that Gurgen went through at your shop.

Instead of picking out the one of my lines, and fabricating something to challenge it...WHY DONT YOU ADDRESS THE REAL TANGIBLE ISSUES THAT GURGEN AND I BROUGHT UP??

1) Damaged and repaired block..not disclosed to him
2) Nicks and and holes on the pistons
3) Faulty balancing
4) Noisy slappy motor
5) Balancing the pistons improperly.

You guys might have a fine reputation in the 300zx world, but you have a long way to go here in the 350z world. A pretty shop, and lots of service bays doesnt cut it..in my book. You need to stop acting like a lawyer, and start acting like a 350Z enthusiast...like the other reputable shops on this board.

 

I agree. What I meant is that there are lots of vendors selling parts...SGP, Z1 in NY, CJ Motorsports, etc....and I have excellent relations and partnerships with them. So being a competitor to Z1 is not reason enough for me to make stuff up, or try to gang up on them. I am posting this becuase they treated a good friend of mine like a POS, and took zero responsiblity for their errors....and I am NOT just refering to the Arias piston squirter issues. Arias stepped up and fixed everyone's problems.


I agree that someone needs to start a new thread..or cut this stuff out and place it a new thread. This needs to be vetting out...and the truth will unfold.

 

Heh, are you kidding? They pull this brand of **** ALL THE TIME on the 300ZX guys as well. If you'd like to compare experiences, get more information or anything else, feel free to email me as I have collected dozens of issues with the 300ZX guys and Z1 in my bookmarks while I was a moderator on TwinTurbo.NET.

I really feel for you guys but it doesn't shock me one bit that it's happening. Every shop, everywhere has issues, makes mistakes and has to deal with them. Unfortunately, they haven't figured out how to deal with mistakes in a constructive and professional way.

Good luck with your car.

 

They don't! If you want more ammo on z1 just log on to TT.net and use their "SEARCH" feature. You will not be surprised as to their attitude towards you guys.

Type in the "SEARCH" feature
"z1 customer service" and you might be surprises at the # of hits you guys get?

As Seedy stated, "I feel for you guys". Hopefully the rest of you 350Z guys will learn early unlike the Z32 guys.

 

Lorca, this is pretty sad,

Again, you decide to ignore the points I am making. Of course Arias's pistons were of initially bad design, and as I have told you many times, and of course you will not be posting this, that they should carry 70% of the burden, and oyu should at least carry 30%. Tey did their end of the bargain, what about you? Of course you will not be posting the response to my email asking you wheter you are really proud of this work you did on my engine, even after your claims of you having done absolutely nothign wrong. Obviously, your answer would be in the affirmative if that were truly the case... but just as you are doing here, you will only disregard the issue. You lost accountability here, and i hope for good.

G

 

Excuse me but where does it state in the rules that a thread MUST stick to the original topic? This is a serious issue that shouldn't be swept under the rug or discounted simply because YOU think it's a battle of "he said, she said". The facts are all around you and they are easy to find on our 300ZX board and here. If it's an issue you don't particularly agree with, don't want to see or don't want to deal with, then exit the thread peacefully. If you simply want to know the status of the build, email the guy.

It's not that hard guys

 

If any post helps one person make an informed decision, it's a positive thing. Glad some good came of it.

 

in all fairness, that's something that's almost never checked by any engine builder, why do you think arias failed to check that clearance? that's something to be addressed when the piston was blueprinted, not during basic engine building. if you provide a piston, all the engine builder's going to do is check the mass variation, piston to wall clearance, and ring end gap. they have to consider everything else as good to go or else your labor cost would triple. for example if you tell them the piston you bought is 9:1 cr, they're not going to cc your combustion chamber just to make sure it is.

 

Royce, I'm going to end the discussion on Z1...lets leave it for another thread, and I will express my opinion further...or you can PM me if you'd like.

Here are some pics of the pistons and rods.

Once they are ready to install the the pistons and rods, I will go down and take live shots of the action.