yea... what is this guy an orthopedic surgeon? He probably takes home over $400,000 a year... they do around here. I dont want to hear any more complaints from that guy.

 

Come on guys, try to get back on topic.

Charles, has Jeff talked to you since he posted?

 

You have a very narrow mind to think that everyone knows whats involved or in this case Jak knew what was involved. Did you ever realize that most people that can afford such expensive items are clueless about what needs to be done. Hell I was clueless about 2 months ago before I started researching online. Now I know a thing or 2 and know what exactly to pay. Not everyone is fortunate to know everything beforehand so it MUST be explained regardless. If he heard 2500 at all somewhere in the conversation why should he be expected to pay 7 grand even though I do agree with that pricing being fair for all the work that was done....he did not know all these charges would add up and the shop should have informed him...PLAIN AND SIMPLE. Hell I'd be pissed if I saw 7 grand on a bill and was expecting 2500. Wouldn't you? Its clearly miscommunication here but the point is when doing something soo expensive everything should be in writing and agreement, you cant just expect to charge 7 grand, a whopping 4500 dollars more, than what was expected. Not saying its a bad price for what was done but it needs to be in writing. Not everyone is the genius you think they are. You also cannot compare cars to a persons life...but as a doctor even pricing quotes are given for surgeries and what not and I would not mind spending 7 grand knowing I will live, even if I was initially given a 2500 estimate, not that it ever happens. You just cannot compare the two...Anyways my point is not everyone knows everything and 2500 for labor seems reasonable coming from the perspective of a person that doesnt know too much.
All things aside Phunk I think you have good pricing and wouldn't mind coming to you for everything when I'm ready sometime in the next few months. Thanks for posting and I hope the two of you can start over somehow. Just enjoy everything and move on and Jak in case your wondering you did not get ripped off and I respect your asking on the forums. I dont know why people are pissed at you on this forum when all you wanted to know was if it was an ok price.....

 

if Jak and phunk are available Tuesday night, the beers are on me. Root beer for me, but Beers for you two :-)

 

There is no possible way that Phunk told this kid $2500 for everything then jacked the bill to $7000 without telling the kid about any additional work..

 

I'm pretty sure Jeff is a grown man, you really shouldn't try to belittle him by calling him Kid, unless you're a 82 year-old WWII vet.

 

The fact of the matter is for both Charles and Jak there was poor communication between the both of you. Charles was man enough to own up to it, apologize, and try to help Jak out even further by doing the dyno tune for free. What you have to Jak and I speak from expierence is rebuild your relationship with Charles because trust me your going to need him after your car is completed.
Jak cut Charles some slack he apologized and his man enough to admit it. I think you need to look at the invoice and really come up with a number that you think is fair and call Charles with it and see what he says.
Charles working with customers everyday is the business you picked and sometimes regardless if your making money or not from a business perspective you have to do what is right for customer ( If that means losing your shirt so be it.) I think you would agree with me that you don't want customers especially ones that spend the money that Jak is spending with you talking trash about you or your shop.

 

Thank you for saying this. I was wondering if I was the only one being bothered by this B.S. "kid" reference. Whether a customer is 16 or 50 his money is just as green and your respect for his business better remain the same. And yeah I know this was Phunk's customer.

 

I'm in the "long arms shallow pockets" crowd!

Thank you MBNA!

 

If price is the biggest problem you have to go from a stock Z to a fully built APS TT Z, then rest assured you are working with a GREAT shop. I have found that with this car, you are much better off to pay (what you perceive to be) a high price to have work done, then to try and get a deal. Phunk has one of the few shops in the whole country that actually own a Z as a FI shop car. Would you rather have the guy that normally only works on Civics do it and save some money? I promise you would end up spending more in the long run. If you read the forums, the prices are out there, and it is expensive. Anyone who wants to get into the super car realm should do their own research and know what things cost so they are not surprised. If you are educated, there are no surprises.

There are plenty of gurus on this forum that can answer any of your questions. We know what things cost and what reasonable prices are. Anyone who wants to build this car has to do it for the love of the car and not the money. Bottom line, the parts and labor are not worth anything unless you are happy.

I say, pay the price, drive the car, and you won't care what it costs once you feel 500whp. I know how you feel and I am sure we have all been there once, but the more you know about your car, the happier you will be. Phunk is the perfect guy to teach you everything you want to know, but.... you have to ask. Stay in communication constantly with someone who is taking your car apart, know the ticket total daily. Make it a priority and you will avoid surprises. And definitely end this on a good note by a personal phone call or shop visit. You will most likely have something go wrong with your car, and you will need to visit the shop again. Little or big problem, it will happen. Yet another price we pay for 500+whp.

 

You keep referring to him as "this kid." I have no idea how old he is but it sounds very disrespectful. Clearly there was a misundestanding due to the lack of a written quote.

 

Moderators please give this guy a warning or a strike for his attitude. Every post he makes he calls me out as some "kid". I do not know this newbie ***_+$$ and he surly doesn't know who I am. If he did he would certainly show me some respect.

His post when he joined the thread was 20. He is nothing but a trouble maker to all of us old timers here and his posts reflect that.

Thanx
Jeff

 

I wanted to remind everyone here that the cost of this project is not the concern. I have a nice portfolio and a prosperous 23 year career. I took the survey here to get opinons on the fairness of the bill. Why? Because I didn't know.

A couple of posters here zman1910 hit it right on the head. I have the money to spend but on the same token I know nothing about this process and then it all comes down to trust. Me trusting Charles.

There are two points of trust here that I have to rely on. First and the obvious is that Charles will do a outstanding job on my car. Second Charles will be honest financially.

This is a lot of trust for me to place with someone I do not know. It is even more trust to be placed with someone when I do not know anything about the project.

When the trust gets broken it is hard to take. I have no backup information or experience to rely on. That is why I came here for opinions.

All of you hard core posters that think I am some "kid" that can't afford a bill are truley misinformed. It may just take a little maturity to grasp where I am coming from.

I wrote Charles an e-mail today trying to explain to him where I was coming from. Hopefully he understands.

Jeff

 

I can understand the investment involved for reliability of an FI upgrade.

Charles, in your experience, how would you feel if I asked you to install a turbo kit of some sort for my bonestock car? This would be with a "modest" tune on 91 octane. Would it make you feel uneasy since the motor won't be built? My driving habits... barely race, once in awhile spirited driving, but turbos + BOV are nice :-)

 

Ok ive read the entire post and wanted to chime in sooner. Charles and I have had a business relationship for a little over a year now. He is the only one I trust with my car. Based on my experience working with him Charles would most likely not give a labor price of 2500.00 for all that work and im positive if at any point Jak asked for a updated invoice Charles would have provided it. I paid a little over 2000.00 for Charles to install my GReddy TT kit and it was worth every penny. That being said I know he is aware that removing and rebuilding a motor cost a bit more than 500.00 in labor so clearly it is a miscommunication on somebodys behalf. Jak I was at CJ-motorsport a few times while your car was there and saw the work that was involved trust me you underpaid. Bottom line here Charles is a good man and I dont know Jak personally but im sure he is as well. So I hope you guys can find a way to work this out. Thanks James

 

This is what I refer to as the people hear what they want to hear theory. There was no disrespect intended by refering to you as kid. If thats your major gripe then you have far more serious issues than an overpriced install. All the postings I made elaborating on how expensive a FI car costs and the only thing you take from it is "KID".Seriously Im not trying to offend you but you did start a thread asking our opinions about your install and left out many many details in regards to the price and the "EXTRAS" you added so as to initially decieve the reader, whether it was intentional or unintentional so be it. If the word KID offends you then I appologize, I refer to everone as Kid but not out of disresect. You did pay a very fair price on your install and I just find it hard to believe you did not know the cost involved as the install progressed. Put yourself in Phunks shoes, would YOU do all that work for $2500??I think not.

 

Its all cleared up now guys. I am in the most opposite position available and I still understand Jeff's position... so I think that if I can then we all can.

djtonium: putting turbos on a stock engine is not anything i fear, I have been doing that. if properly cared for, chances of problems are remote as long as the power levels remain within reach of the fuel and tuning systems utilized. PM me if you wanted to discuss that further.

 

Whoa guys! First of all, I never meant to imply that anyone got "ripped off" or was overcharged by the tuner in question here. I was simply making a comparison between what a tuner gets to work on an inanimate object vs what a doctor gets to work on a human being.

I just find it funny that folks will shell out 7 grand on an engine and apparently think nothing of it but will ***** about paying "$150" for tylenol (which is a common misconception and an often misquoted hospital charge.

I also wanted to let people know that the doctor doesn't get probably 90% of whatever your bill is from the hospital. This is another popular misconception. I can't tell you how many times people get a hospital bill for a 5 day stay after a surgery of around 20 grand and say, "These damn DOCTORS are so over paid!" That bill is from the hospital NOT the doctor!

And you think I learned how to reconstruct a destroyed joint by reading it in a book?

No, read what I wrote. I have over $300,000 invested in over 14 years of schooling, and that was just for education. Do you know how much it costs to open an orthopedic surgical practice? Trust me, it makes your 200K look miniscule.


Yeah, I get paid enough to pay it but who knows how long I'll be able to. It goes up every year and reimbursement from Medicare and Medicaid go down every year.

Also, the fact that you say I "Pass it on to my patients" proves to me that you simply don't understand how the medical reimbursement process works. That was what I was trying to explain. I CAN'T "pass it on to my patients"! Like I said, I can charge WHATEVER I WANT, and I only get paid what Medicare or the HMO decides they want to pay me!

No my friend, that is why I get paid LESS!

So you think getting sued is "just business" that a doctor doesn't care about? It's just something we turn over to the insurance company and never let it bother us? Come on.

Also, if my malpractice carrier pays out a lawsuit settlement, what do you think happens to my rates? Or worse yet, they can (and often do) simply pull your coverage and it is next to impossible to get another company to cover you. With no malpractice insurance, I CANNOT practice. It's illegal.

That's what I figured. This concept is so foreign to you, you can't even understand it. What I am saying is that in your business, you charge a price and you get that price. In mine, it doesn't matter what I charge, I get what THEY want to pay me. The analogy I listed above would be as if YOU had to accept what a "medicare for car tuners" would pay you.

If you must know, I make about half that. And don't worry, you won't.

Not looking for it. Just making a point.

 

Dr Bonz: Point taken.

My point... you get a paid a hell of a lot more to deal with the ******** you go thru... and you go thru a lot more ******** to get paid what you get paid. BUT if I really wanted to keep argueing I would start saying that I feel the income vs ******** ratio is much more appealing for those in the medical field!

-charles

 

I know you are trying to defend yourself from earlier posts, but your defense of all of the hardships that doctors go through is pretty pathetic. I mean, first you mention how much school you've had and then go on to flaunt the fact that it costs you 300k. Which I seriously doubt you paid 300k and I am sure some of it was subsidized with financial aid of some sort and utimately came from the goverment or our tax dollars! After all that, now its time to b1tch about the daily hardships that you go through trying to collect payments for services you have rendered?! Then the part I really liked, when you went on to say that you work on a human being, not on inaminate objects. This is so ridiculus to try and put down someone's profession because its not a human body, lol. I have been responsible for a billion dollar Submarine and various nuclear power plants. Yeah, those are inaminate objects too btw.
The fact is you are in a very well paid profession and you knew what you were getting into from day 1. If you don't like being a doctor, then don't be one.