update on electric supercharger
10-20-2003, 11:12 AM
#61
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ok you guys that are trying to hype up these "electric" superchargers....here's my question for you.
Even IF you are able to get a tiny bit of boost out of these overpriced fans...how are you going to supply the extra fuel that is one of the required ingredients to making POWER. You think the Zs ECU is going to be able to recognize boost and add more fuel??? There is MUCH more too this than merely overcoming the vaccuum that the engine creates.
Even IF you are able to get a tiny bit of boost out of these overpriced fans...how are you going to supply the extra fuel that is one of the required ingredients to making POWER. You think the Zs ECU is going to be able to recognize boost and add more fuel??? There is MUCH more too this than merely overcoming the vaccuum that the engine creates.
10-20-2003, 12:11 PM
#62
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*splat*
I am a mechanical engineer. I couldn't wait to get to the end of the thread so I could put in my .02 about this POS, but by the time I got here MY HEAD F**KING EXPLODED!
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRGGGHHHHH!
AGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG!
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRGGGHHHHH!
AGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG!
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!
10-20-2003, 03:17 PM
#63
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Re: *splat*
Originally posted by reen
I am a mechanical engineer. I couldn't wait to get to the end of the thread so I could put in my .02 about this POS,
I am a mechanical engineer. I couldn't wait to get to the end of the thread so I could put in my .02 about this POS,
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." Albert Einstein
Cheers
Dmitry
10-21-2003, 03:16 AM
#65
New Member
How smart I am today.
Originally posted by mpol99
hmmmm
(funny chart here)
hmmmm
(funny chart here)
That is about the funniest post I have seen this year!
Did you draw that chart?
I literally laughed out loud so loud my wife wanted to see what I was reading.
heheheheh
Then I read this thread .... duuuuhhhhhhhh
10-21-2003, 08:47 AM
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Can one of the ME's give a technical explanation about what is wrong with the concept? I know it is crap, but I would like to see a scientific explanation about why it is crap. 
10-21-2003, 09:07 AM
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OK, for most of us with any type of background in mechanics, physics or engineering, the original post might cause a chuckle.
Hey, I'm also an engineer but if I posed a question about a subject I am not familiar with, such as accounting, I wouldn't want to be made fun of if an accountant would consider the answer to the question obvious.
Anyway, this thread reminded my of a turbocharger that was being sold that was power assisted in order to reduce lag. I found some information on the research of the electric assisted turbine concept.
http://www.osti.gov/fcvt/deer2000/baileypa.pdf
Hey, I'm also an engineer but if I posed a question about a subject I am not familiar with, such as accounting, I wouldn't want to be made fun of if an accountant would consider the answer to the question obvious.
Anyway, this thread reminded my of a turbocharger that was being sold that was power assisted in order to reduce lag. I found some information on the research of the electric assisted turbine concept.
http://www.osti.gov/fcvt/deer2000/baileypa.pdf
10-21-2003, 09:37 AM
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Turbodyne's Dynacharger electric turbine
I finally found what I was thinking of. I know it isn't exactly what the original post was about but I think it has some relationship to it or is at least interesting.
http://www.turbodyne.com/
"Turbodyne's DynachargerTM consists of: 1) an electronically controlled ultra high speed electric motor / generator mounted between and coaxial with the turbine and the compressor of a conventional turbocharger. 2) an electronic power and speed control system.
The DynachargerTM is custom sized to match specific OEM engines, and is designed to meet the different OEM power, torque, cold start, and emission requirements.
Electrically, the operation of the DynachargerTM will alternate between Motor Mode and Generator Mode. In Motor Mode, the DynachagerTM provides the required boost pressure for a cold start, and the required boost pressure for low speed engine acceleration. The electric motor is designed to compensate for the lack of exhaust gas energy (used to power a turbocharger) in this area of engine operation. In this mode, the DyanchargerTM will also produce a quick growth in engine power, thereby providing a significantly faster transient response. Additionally, at low engine operating loads, the DynachargerTM can be used to supply extremely high EGR rates, while maintaining a proper air fuel ratio for a clean efficient burn."
http://www.turbodyne.com/
"Turbodyne's DynachargerTM consists of: 1) an electronically controlled ultra high speed electric motor / generator mounted between and coaxial with the turbine and the compressor of a conventional turbocharger. 2) an electronic power and speed control system.
The DynachargerTM is custom sized to match specific OEM engines, and is designed to meet the different OEM power, torque, cold start, and emission requirements.
Electrically, the operation of the DynachargerTM will alternate between Motor Mode and Generator Mode. In Motor Mode, the DynachagerTM provides the required boost pressure for a cold start, and the required boost pressure for low speed engine acceleration. The electric motor is designed to compensate for the lack of exhaust gas energy (used to power a turbocharger) in this area of engine operation. In this mode, the DyanchargerTM will also produce a quick growth in engine power, thereby providing a significantly faster transient response. Additionally, at low engine operating loads, the DynachargerTM can be used to supply extremely high EGR rates, while maintaining a proper air fuel ratio for a clean efficient burn."
10-21-2003, 12:17 PM
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You guys know how fast a turbo spins? About 20,000 RPM. I don't even think thier are electric fans that can spin that fast. Thats my lamens explination.
10-21-2003, 05:07 PM
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for starters...
No time to go more in depth right now, but here's something to start out with:
In response to the major agrument, "what is a supercharger but a big fan": a supercharger is indeed not a fan. It is a PUMP. A pump is used to transport a fluid (yes, air is a fluid) with a significant pressure differential across the device. Think about it this way: you wouldn't try to fill the tank on your air compressor with a fan -- you'd never get squat for pressure because it would (basically) just blow back through the fan. Pressure is force divided by area (psi=pounds/square inch). That is, the maximum pressure you could achieve in the tank would be equal to the force the fan puts out times the cross-sectional area of the orifice you're blowing through. In laymen's terms, for a fan this ain't much.
Don't pay so much attention to the cfm's these fans can flow -- cfm is volume per unit of time (cubic feet per minute). Pressure is not in the equation at all. It is possible to move huge volumes at low pressure (ever heard of HVLP automotive paint systems?).
Another little point is that there is no such thing as energy for free. Why don't you run your power steering pump, a/c, water pump, etc. electrically instead of robbing all that precious power from your crankshaft? Because you'd need such a big-a$$ alternator to do it all that your overall system would be less efficient than when you started. In use, alternators don't just free spin like when they're in your hand. There is mechanical drag as you convert mechanical energy into electrical energy. There are also losses associated with this transformation, as well as with the subsequent transformation back to mechanical energy (via an electric motor). It robs more horsepower from your engine to generate enough electricity to run your accessories electrically than it would to just run them directly.
Geesh, I guess I went off on a tangent a bit there. Anyway, take it for what it's worth. Free advice is usually worth what you paid for it.
In response to the major agrument, "what is a supercharger but a big fan": a supercharger is indeed not a fan. It is a PUMP. A pump is used to transport a fluid (yes, air is a fluid) with a significant pressure differential across the device. Think about it this way: you wouldn't try to fill the tank on your air compressor with a fan -- you'd never get squat for pressure because it would (basically) just blow back through the fan. Pressure is force divided by area (psi=pounds/square inch). That is, the maximum pressure you could achieve in the tank would be equal to the force the fan puts out times the cross-sectional area of the orifice you're blowing through. In laymen's terms, for a fan this ain't much.
Don't pay so much attention to the cfm's these fans can flow -- cfm is volume per unit of time (cubic feet per minute). Pressure is not in the equation at all. It is possible to move huge volumes at low pressure (ever heard of HVLP automotive paint systems?).
Another little point is that there is no such thing as energy for free. Why don't you run your power steering pump, a/c, water pump, etc. electrically instead of robbing all that precious power from your crankshaft? Because you'd need such a big-a$$ alternator to do it all that your overall system would be less efficient than when you started. In use, alternators don't just free spin like when they're in your hand. There is mechanical drag as you convert mechanical energy into electrical energy. There are also losses associated with this transformation, as well as with the subsequent transformation back to mechanical energy (via an electric motor). It robs more horsepower from your engine to generate enough electricity to run your accessories electrically than it would to just run them directly.
Geesh, I guess I went off on a tangent a bit there. Anyway, take it for what it's worth. Free advice is usually worth what you paid for it.
10-22-2003, 05:31 AM
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I was wondering the same thing. Why would you want to go through one more power robbing process in order to gain hp? Just run the supercharger directly off the engine (crank) for reduced power losses.
Now I can see using an electrical energy driven motor to overcome the inertia of a spindle/impellor/turbine, etc. in a turbo housing.
So I would think the benefit of the instantaneous spooling of the turbo using an electric motor may offset the losses seen by converting the energy from mechanical energy. It seems you could possibly use such device in conjunction with a turbo driven by exhaust gases or stand alone. If you use it stand alone it couldn’t be used for a substantial power enhancement just for that initial boost.
I didn’t come out of Thermo (descent in Fluids) with the best grades and have never truly researched the subject so I don’t claim to be an expert on the subject.
Now I can see using an electrical energy driven motor to overcome the inertia of a spindle/impellor/turbine, etc. in a turbo housing.
So I would think the benefit of the instantaneous spooling of the turbo using an electric motor may offset the losses seen by converting the energy from mechanical energy. It seems you could possibly use such device in conjunction with a turbo driven by exhaust gases or stand alone. If you use it stand alone it couldn’t be used for a substantial power enhancement just for that initial boost.
I didn’t come out of Thermo (descent in Fluids) with the best grades and have never truly researched the subject so I don’t claim to be an expert on the subject.
10-22-2003, 06:03 AM
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I correct myself
I keep thinking about this. The more I think about it the more it seems you couldn't use a stand alone electric blower. It would have to be used in conjunction with an exhaust driven blower. It just wouldn't be effecient stand alone.
08-03-2005, 05:08 AM
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I am not here to take sides on this product discussion, however, after reading all four pages of this topic I wanted to hear the manufacturers side of the story as well. Since they will not personally get involved in forum discussions because it is not in their best interest to do so, I am posting their feed back to my email because I feel they have some interesting statements for consideration.
From: e-Racing Motorsports
To: Hot Foot
We appreciate your letting us know about the discussion on our product.
We try to stay away from entering any discussion boards on the internet, as it has been our experience over the last 7 years that any information we provide in discussion groups ends up being slammed as “marketing” or “sales” efforts by our company. We understand that there are literally 1,000’s of discussions on the internet regarding our e-RAM product, and we have decided that the “word-of-mouth” from our actual customers creates the best positive press for educating the public on the purpose, function, and capability of the e-RAM product to provide affordable, bolt-on HP gains.
We do however see our responses to individuals who have e-mailed us “cut-&-pasted” onto discussion boards quite often. This is better because the message comes as relayed information from a discussion group member, and not viewed as an “invasion” into the private discussion of the group.
Overall, we have realized that the only people who slam our product are the ones who either have never purchased an e-RAM from us, or contacted us in any way to ask about our product. The people who slam the e-RAM either do not understand what our product is doing, or think it is something similar to all of the other “junk” out there that is provided by companies or individuals who “claim” to do what we are doing. We are the US patent holder on this technology, and we are the ONLY company in the world who can produce the type of power output from our custom designed motor made specifically for our application.
Viewing some of the posts, I will try to provide some insight to the misinformation that is being posted by people who have no idea what is going on with the e-RAM product.
The e-RAM VS ALL OTHER electric “fans”:
The e-RAM is a HIGH POWER axial flow compressor, drawing 60 amps at 13.8V off of the battery (around 800 WATTS) to drive the impeller at 26,000 RPM when activated automatically at FULL THROTTLE (activated by a throttle mounted micro-switch we provide, much like a nitrous type activation).
There is no other product out there that even comes close to the power output of the e-RAM, and because of this, there is no other product out there that will generate pressure at the flow rates required by a car engine. It doesn’t matter if it’s a squirrel cage blower (leaf blower style), or in-line fan like those ridiculous boat blowers… They simply do not draw enough electrical energy to generate ANY pressure on a car intake.
There are other factors that must be accounted for as well when generating any boost electrically. Please view this section of our website for a complete explanation on the basics of electric boost technology, and why this is the case:
http://www.electricsupercharger.com/...#eboostbasics1
Air-flow requirement of 350z engine VS e-RAM:
The 3.5L VQ engine requires roughly 330 CFM at 6000 RPM while at FULL THROTTLE. The e-RAM has the capability of flowing roughly 1000CFM when unrestricted. It is this differential in air-flow between what the engine is trying to draw in VS what the e-RAM is trying to flow that generates the positive pressure in the intake.
Regarding the discussion of the e-RAM restricting the intake when not activated...........
When the e-RAM is not activated (normal driving), it DOES NOT restrict your intake. This is because the e-RAM is over 3.6" inside diameter, so even with the electric motor and fan blades inside, the e-RAM when OFF still allows the same free-flow of air as a 3.1" free-flow intake tube. A simple math calculation can confirm this: The formula for calculating the area of a circle is: Pi (3.14) x the radius squared.
So let's calculate:
FLOW AREA OF A 3 INCH DIAMETER INTAKE TUBE..................
Radius of a 3" intake tube = 1.5"
1.5 squared (1.5 x 1.5) = 2.25, x Pi (3.14) = 7.065 Square inches of area inside of an open 3" intake tube
FLOW AREA OF THE E-RAM TUBE (ACCOUNTING FOR ELECTRIC MOTOR & FAN INSIDE)........
Radius of the 3.62" diameter e-RAM = 1.81"
1.81 squared (1.81 x 1.81) = 3.2761 x Pi (3.14) = 10.287 Square inches of area inside of the e-RAM (not yet subtracting area blocked by motor).
Radius of the 1.5" diameter motor in center of e-RAM = 0.75"
0.75 Squared (0.75 x 0.75) = 0.5625 x Pi (3.14) = 1.766 square inches of area BLOCKED by the motor in center of e-RAM.
So: Subtract the area blocked by the motor (1.766 sq in.) from the area of the e-RAM (10.287 sq in.), and you get....
8.521 sq inches of open area inside the e-RAM
Assuming your throttle-body is smaller than 3" diameter, your throttle-body is the major restriction on your intake.
Hope this helps -
Regards,
Mike Kibort
Director of Operations
e-Racing Motorsports, LLC.
http://www.electricsupercharger.com/
From: e-Racing Motorsports
To: Hot Foot
We appreciate your letting us know about the discussion on our product.
We try to stay away from entering any discussion boards on the internet, as it has been our experience over the last 7 years that any information we provide in discussion groups ends up being slammed as “marketing” or “sales” efforts by our company. We understand that there are literally 1,000’s of discussions on the internet regarding our e-RAM product, and we have decided that the “word-of-mouth” from our actual customers creates the best positive press for educating the public on the purpose, function, and capability of the e-RAM product to provide affordable, bolt-on HP gains.
We do however see our responses to individuals who have e-mailed us “cut-&-pasted” onto discussion boards quite often. This is better because the message comes as relayed information from a discussion group member, and not viewed as an “invasion” into the private discussion of the group.
Overall, we have realized that the only people who slam our product are the ones who either have never purchased an e-RAM from us, or contacted us in any way to ask about our product. The people who slam the e-RAM either do not understand what our product is doing, or think it is something similar to all of the other “junk” out there that is provided by companies or individuals who “claim” to do what we are doing. We are the US patent holder on this technology, and we are the ONLY company in the world who can produce the type of power output from our custom designed motor made specifically for our application.
Viewing some of the posts, I will try to provide some insight to the misinformation that is being posted by people who have no idea what is going on with the e-RAM product.
The e-RAM VS ALL OTHER electric “fans”:
The e-RAM is a HIGH POWER axial flow compressor, drawing 60 amps at 13.8V off of the battery (around 800 WATTS) to drive the impeller at 26,000 RPM when activated automatically at FULL THROTTLE (activated by a throttle mounted micro-switch we provide, much like a nitrous type activation).
There is no other product out there that even comes close to the power output of the e-RAM, and because of this, there is no other product out there that will generate pressure at the flow rates required by a car engine. It doesn’t matter if it’s a squirrel cage blower (leaf blower style), or in-line fan like those ridiculous boat blowers… They simply do not draw enough electrical energy to generate ANY pressure on a car intake.
There are other factors that must be accounted for as well when generating any boost electrically. Please view this section of our website for a complete explanation on the basics of electric boost technology, and why this is the case:
http://www.electricsupercharger.com/...#eboostbasics1
Air-flow requirement of 350z engine VS e-RAM:
The 3.5L VQ engine requires roughly 330 CFM at 6000 RPM while at FULL THROTTLE. The e-RAM has the capability of flowing roughly 1000CFM when unrestricted. It is this differential in air-flow between what the engine is trying to draw in VS what the e-RAM is trying to flow that generates the positive pressure in the intake.
Regarding the discussion of the e-RAM restricting the intake when not activated...........
When the e-RAM is not activated (normal driving), it DOES NOT restrict your intake. This is because the e-RAM is over 3.6" inside diameter, so even with the electric motor and fan blades inside, the e-RAM when OFF still allows the same free-flow of air as a 3.1" free-flow intake tube. A simple math calculation can confirm this: The formula for calculating the area of a circle is: Pi (3.14) x the radius squared.
So let's calculate:
FLOW AREA OF A 3 INCH DIAMETER INTAKE TUBE..................
Radius of a 3" intake tube = 1.5"
1.5 squared (1.5 x 1.5) = 2.25, x Pi (3.14) = 7.065 Square inches of area inside of an open 3" intake tube
FLOW AREA OF THE E-RAM TUBE (ACCOUNTING FOR ELECTRIC MOTOR & FAN INSIDE)........
Radius of the 3.62" diameter e-RAM = 1.81"
1.81 squared (1.81 x 1.81) = 3.2761 x Pi (3.14) = 10.287 Square inches of area inside of the e-RAM (not yet subtracting area blocked by motor).
Radius of the 1.5" diameter motor in center of e-RAM = 0.75"
0.75 Squared (0.75 x 0.75) = 0.5625 x Pi (3.14) = 1.766 square inches of area BLOCKED by the motor in center of e-RAM.
So: Subtract the area blocked by the motor (1.766 sq in.) from the area of the e-RAM (10.287 sq in.), and you get....
8.521 sq inches of open area inside the e-RAM
Assuming your throttle-body is smaller than 3" diameter, your throttle-body is the major restriction on your intake.
Hope this helps -
Regards,
Mike Kibort
Director of Operations
e-Racing Motorsports, LLC.
http://www.electricsupercharger.com/
02-16-2006, 04:47 PM
#76
I have to laugh about this. Not to be mean, but someone mentioned this before and I totally agree. If you buy a $30k car, why would you put cheap mods on it. And why would you put that huge a$$ fugly sticker on a Z as posted above.
It was also mentioned that the fan blades would smooth the air out such as the tornado. I dont think the tornado smoothed the air out. I believe the idea they tried to present was that the spinning motion added to the air would continue into the cylinders spinning the air around and making it contain itself in the cylinders. Therefore, less air escaping through your exhaust valves due to overlap (general theory of a combustion chamber. Using fresh air to replace and evacuate spent gases for the next cycle). The spinning motion, supposedly made more air stay in the cylinders.
I personally agree that this is somewhat "junk" modification. Especially without dyno numbers.
It was also mentioned that the fan blades would smooth the air out such as the tornado. I dont think the tornado smoothed the air out. I believe the idea they tried to present was that the spinning motion added to the air would continue into the cylinders spinning the air around and making it contain itself in the cylinders. Therefore, less air escaping through your exhaust valves due to overlap (general theory of a combustion chamber. Using fresh air to replace and evacuate spent gases for the next cycle). The spinning motion, supposedly made more air stay in the cylinders.
I personally agree that this is somewhat "junk" modification. Especially without dyno numbers.
02-16-2006, 04:53 PM
#79
I haz da turbos
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I too am an engineer, motorsport engineering to be exact, and i have to say, even if the system where to only overcome the vacuum from the engine, this would be enough to produce power. This system is totally feasible, although a dyno would be necessary to prove it.
The main reason i wouldn't put it on my car is because it looks "feels" cheap and tacky, and personally i'm a man that likes to spend the big bucks on my car. So yes, i suppose you could say its because i'm a car snob
The main reason i wouldn't put it on my car is because it looks "feels" cheap and tacky, and personally i'm a man that likes to spend the big bucks on my car. So yes, i suppose you could say its because i'm a car snob
