View Poll Results: What Kit Blew your Motor and what PSI Select 2 only
Stock w/ Minor mods cams/headers incld.
12
12.12%
Greddy TT
36
36.36%
Vortech SC
10
10.10%
APS TT
13
13.13%
PE TT
3
3.03%
Turbonetics ST
8
8.08%
ATI SC
8
8.08%
Stillen SC
1
1.01%
SSR TT
1
1.01%
Nitrous
6
6.06%
>8psi
29
29.29%
<8psi
20
20.20%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 99. You may not vote on this poll
Poll on Blown engines
10-16-2005, 06:49 PM
#41
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"Fernandito" lost "two" blocks with a Greddy <8psi befor going back NA stock.
First one only bent two rods , an oil squirter and cracked two piston skirts.This became the sacrificial block for my built APS TT LB project.
The second threw at least one rod outta the side of the block, was running OOB boost with no timing harness upgrade.
First one only bent two rods , an oil squirter and cracked two piston skirts.This became the sacrificial block for my built APS TT LB project.
The second threw at least one rod outta the side of the block, was running OOB boost with no timing harness upgrade.
10-17-2005, 07:06 AM
#42
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Originally Posted by LouZer
I bent 5 of 6 rods. Woo Hoo! Vortech baby! If you are going to blow it up... might as well go out big.
And for those wondering, it was at about 12psi on the dyno. Made a pull, turned the car off, started it back up and heard the clunking noise associated with bent rods. A/F was good, timing was fine, the wimpy stock rods just gave out. Car was driven on the street, road courses and at the drag strip.
And for those wondering, it was at about 12psi on the dyno. Made a pull, turned the car off, started it back up and heard the clunking noise associated with bent rods. A/F was good, timing was fine, the wimpy stock rods just gave out. Car was driven on the street, road courses and at the drag strip.
I believe that the ceiling for stock rods is 10lbs, and then that would be light duty or an occasional beating only.
I could run 10lbs... I don't, APS ran their car on 10LBS for longer than they will admit publicly and it held together under harsher conditions/usage than I would recommend... but that is my opinion.
I did already notice someone posted below your post and above mine about 2 blocks going with a greddy kit, which IMO based on technical merits "as-is" without additional support, the greddy kit sucks... I rejected that product the day it hit the market, and I still see why I am glad about that regullary.
yes...yes...yes....yes... before someone starts flaming me about "greddy is good", "it's the best tuner kit out there", "Shariff has one at 600HP+" etc..etc...
First of all, we all have a deep respect and admiration for Shariff, so leave him out of this, and he is the perfect example of someone who COULD have a greddy kit, or any other kit and do whatever he wants with it, he is very much the exception to the rule.
Now back to the vortech 12psi scenario, this may or may not have had an impact on what happened, but here is my theoretical .02 on that.
As it is a SuperCharger, it is running off the engine rpm, more rpm, more boost... Simple right?
Well this is the reason why I did not go SC when I nearly got into a stillen setup. Someone else can come in with the technical facts/wording if they are willing (they usually don't in this arena we've setup, and rightfully so as it is largely a waste of their time) but the engine is having to overcome more load with the SC attached, there is MORE HEAT being generated in the process of the SC spooling up and providing boost.
You're already pressing the motor to perform beyond expectations, right? Now you're placing additional load on the motor, now you're generating more heat, and then factor in whatever else is going on that the motor isn't really expecting and:
POP!
Now I'm sure someone's gonna post, oh yea "im running that and everything is great". If that's the case; that's great! I'm just saying that there has to be a more likliness of failure in that configuration than another.....
Of course "whatever else is going on" could have just as much impact on what happened to this motor than the SC but nonetheless, that's a factor.
10-17-2005, 02:33 PM
#43
Originally Posted by alpine
Now I'm sure someone's gonna post, oh yea "im running that and everything is great". If that's the case; that's great! I'm just saying that there has to be a more likliness of failure in that configuration than another.....
Of course "whatever else is going on" could have just as much impact on what happened to this motor than the SC but nonetheless, that's a factor.
Of course "whatever else is going on" could have just as much impact on what happened to this motor than the SC but nonetheless, that's a factor.
hehe didn't you know? Everyone's FI is "running great" and "is pushed HARD everyday" and "only have 3000 miles on it, but is running awesome!"
10-17-2005, 11:21 PM
#44
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Originally Posted by sentry65
hehe didn't you know? Everyone's FI is "running great" and "is pushed HARD everyday" and "only have 3000 miles on it, but is running awesome!"
If you have such a problem with Z's with FI...then why do you continue to post in the FI forum?
10-18-2005, 10:48 AM
#45
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Originally Posted by kzanard
I am Vortech in the poll. Last fall I had experienced a few limp mode issues before putting car away for the winter. I never found exact cause. This spring I had the same issue once or twice in a couple of weeks. I noticed the wideband was reading quite rich during a 50 mile trip I took. Next day the car had a very loud exhaust sound. I made appointment to bring it to the tuner/mechanic (who is 60 miles away) and dropped it off later in the week. The engine supposedly seized while they were looking at it. They thought it was main bearings that went and heard some piston slap when they were troubleshooting and also said the SS box program was found to be "corrupt" (not sure what caused that). Had the engine torn apart and found ALL of the crank bearings disintegrated. Nearest guess was that the the FMU was somehow stuck on and gas ruined seals & bearings, etc. My car has been in the shop since April (I get it back this Saturday). I am not a mechanic by any means and do not claim to know exactly what went wrong. PM me if you want more specifics.
I'd be interested in finding out more about what happened with your Z as well. I don't see how it can be the FMU, tho. It is simple mechanical design. The FMU has a float washer that reacts to a change in vacuum pressure. It opens and allows fuel to go to the auxillary fuel pump. The part can get 'stuck' closed (too little fuel), but not open. If you there was a vacuum issue, that could cause the FMU to be open all the time, but then the FMU is not the problem, only a symptom of the actual problem.
I know this because my FMU got stuck closed. The end result was an increase in fuel pressure that would cause a fuel line to blow off of one of the fuel fittings. The washer seized due to fuel deposits (its a metal on metal washer). I now regularly run an injector cleaner to avoid the fuel deposit issue.
10-18-2005, 10:51 AM
#46
Registered User
Originally Posted by LouZer
I bent 5 of 6 rods. Woo Hoo! Vortech baby! If you are going to blow it up... might as well go out big.
And for those wondering, it was at about 12psi on the dyno. Made a pull, turned the car off, started it back up and heard the clunking noise associated with bent rods. A/F was good, timing was fine, the wimpy stock rods just gave out. Car was driven on the street, road courses and at the drag strip.
And for those wondering, it was at about 12psi on the dyno. Made a pull, turned the car off, started it back up and heard the clunking noise associated with bent rods. A/F was good, timing was fine, the wimpy stock rods just gave out. Car was driven on the street, road courses and at the drag strip.
10-18-2005, 10:57 AM
#47
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mcduck,
The engine failure was the result of the destruction of main/crank bearings. The cause for this was thought to be due to excessive fuel. Because the SS box program was found screwed up I think that may have been the culprit. I believe other people's Vortech failures here were due to detonation and rod/piston failure. Not the case for me. There was some slight wear on the piston skirts but this was thought to be a result of the bearing failure.
~ Kevin
The engine failure was the result of the destruction of main/crank bearings. The cause for this was thought to be due to excessive fuel. Because the SS box program was found screwed up I think that may have been the culprit. I believe other people's Vortech failures here were due to detonation and rod/piston failure. Not the case for me. There was some slight wear on the piston skirts but this was thought to be a result of the bearing failure.
~ Kevin
10-18-2005, 10:57 AM
#48
Registered User
Originally Posted by alpine
A/F, Timing, and even tuning in this case is not going to work with 12PSI....
I believe that the ceiling for stock rods is 10lbs, and then that would be light duty or an occasional beating only.
I could run 10lbs... I don't, APS ran their car on 10LBS for longer than they will admit publicly and it held together under harsher conditions/usage than I would recommend... but that is my opinion.
I did already notice someone posted below your post and above mine about 2 blocks going with a greddy kit, which IMO based on technical merits "as-is" without additional support, the greddy kit sucks... I rejected that product the day it hit the market, and I still see why I am glad about that regullary.
yes...yes...yes....yes... before someone starts flaming me about "greddy is good", "it's the best tuner kit out there", "Shariff has one at 600HP+" etc..etc...
First of all, we all have a deep respect and admiration for Shariff, so leave him out of this, and he is the perfect example of someone who COULD have a greddy kit, or any other kit and do whatever he wants with it, he is very much the exception to the rule.
Now back to the vortech 12psi scenario, this may or may not have had an impact on what happened, but here is my theoretical .02 on that.
As it is a SuperCharger, it is running off the engine rpm, more rpm, more boost... Simple right?
Well this is the reason why I did not go SC when I nearly got into a stillen setup. Someone else can come in with the technical facts/wording if they are willing (they usually don't in this arena we've setup, and rightfully so as it is largely a waste of their time) but the engine is having to overcome more load with the SC attached, there is MORE HEAT being generated in the process of the SC spooling up and providing boost.
You're already pressing the motor to perform beyond expectations, right? Now you're placing additional load on the motor, now you're generating more heat, and then factor in whatever else is going on that the motor isn't really expecting and:
POP!
Now I'm sure someone's gonna post, oh yea "im running that and everything is great". If that's the case; that's great! I'm just saying that there has to be a more likliness of failure in that configuration than another.....
Of course "whatever else is going on" could have just as much impact on what happened to this motor than the SC but nonetheless, that's a factor.
I believe that the ceiling for stock rods is 10lbs, and then that would be light duty or an occasional beating only.
I could run 10lbs... I don't, APS ran their car on 10LBS for longer than they will admit publicly and it held together under harsher conditions/usage than I would recommend... but that is my opinion.
I did already notice someone posted below your post and above mine about 2 blocks going with a greddy kit, which IMO based on technical merits "as-is" without additional support, the greddy kit sucks... I rejected that product the day it hit the market, and I still see why I am glad about that regullary.
yes...yes...yes....yes... before someone starts flaming me about "greddy is good", "it's the best tuner kit out there", "Shariff has one at 600HP+" etc..etc...
First of all, we all have a deep respect and admiration for Shariff, so leave him out of this, and he is the perfect example of someone who COULD have a greddy kit, or any other kit and do whatever he wants with it, he is very much the exception to the rule.
Now back to the vortech 12psi scenario, this may or may not have had an impact on what happened, but here is my theoretical .02 on that.
As it is a SuperCharger, it is running off the engine rpm, more rpm, more boost... Simple right?
Well this is the reason why I did not go SC when I nearly got into a stillen setup. Someone else can come in with the technical facts/wording if they are willing (they usually don't in this arena we've setup, and rightfully so as it is largely a waste of their time) but the engine is having to overcome more load with the SC attached, there is MORE HEAT being generated in the process of the SC spooling up and providing boost.
You're already pressing the motor to perform beyond expectations, right? Now you're placing additional load on the motor, now you're generating more heat, and then factor in whatever else is going on that the motor isn't really expecting and:
POP!
Now I'm sure someone's gonna post, oh yea "im running that and everything is great". If that's the case; that's great! I'm just saying that there has to be a more likliness of failure in that configuration than another.....
Of course "whatever else is going on" could have just as much impact on what happened to this motor than the SC but nonetheless, that's a factor.
And in the cases of those hitting high power numbers now, they certainly didn't get there without their own share of growing pains (I know even Sharif had a few problems, but the end results demonstrate what can be accomplished based on what is learned along the way).
10-18-2005, 10:58 AM
#49
Registered User
Originally Posted by kzanard
mcduck,
The engine failure was the result of the destruction of main/crank bearings. The cause for this was thought to be due to excessive fuel. Because the SS box program was found screwed up I think that may have been the culprit. I believe other people's Vortech failures here were due to detonation and rod/piston failure. Not the case for me. There was some slight wear on the piston skirts but this was thought to be a result of the bearing failure.
~ Kevin
The engine failure was the result of the destruction of main/crank bearings. The cause for this was thought to be due to excessive fuel. Because the SS box program was found screwed up I think that may have been the culprit. I believe other people's Vortech failures here were due to detonation and rod/piston failure. Not the case for me. There was some slight wear on the piston skirts but this was thought to be a result of the bearing failure.
~ Kevin
10-18-2005, 11:06 AM
#50
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Are you sure you want to ask? It might scare you. I was at about 440rwhp on the stock internals when it let go.
But, I have my own theory on blown engines. It is not scientific nor does it point to any one factor. I simply think it is luck of the draw. Some engines will hold up and others won't. Just because my engine let go, doesn't mean that yours will.
barthelb drives his car HARD and is over 460rwhp on stock internals with the APS TT. He takes his car to the drag strip quite often and has over 30,000 total miles on the car. There is no way to explain it or predict if it will ever let go.
But, I have my own theory on blown engines. It is not scientific nor does it point to any one factor. I simply think it is luck of the draw. Some engines will hold up and others won't. Just because my engine let go, doesn't mean that yours will.
barthelb drives his car HARD and is over 460rwhp on stock internals with the APS TT. He takes his car to the drag strip quite often and has over 30,000 total miles on the car. There is no way to explain it or predict if it will ever let go.
10-18-2005, 03:46 PM
#51
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Originally Posted by mcduck
I don't disagree with your logic, but actual statistics don't back up your logic. Far more TTs have blown than SCs.
And in the cases of those hitting high power numbers now, they certainly didn't get there without their own share of growing pains (I know even Sharif had a few problems, but the end results demonstrate what can be accomplished based on what is learned along the way).
And in the cases of those hitting high power numbers now, they certainly didn't get there without their own share of growing pains (I know even Sharif had a few problems, but the end results demonstrate what can be accomplished based on what is learned along the way).
The main point I was trying to get across that I would not expect our engine to hold up under 12lbs, and even less so with a SC.
10-18-2005, 05:45 PM
#52
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Originally Posted by LouZer
Are you sure you want to ask? It might scare you. I was at about 440rwhp on the stock internals when it let go.
But, I have my own theory on blown engines. It is not scientific nor does it point to any one factor. I simply think it is luck of the draw. Some engines will hold up and others won't. Just because my engine let go, doesn't mean that yours will.
barthelb drives his car HARD and is over 460rwhp on stock internals with the APS TT. He takes his car to the drag strip quite often and has over 30,000 total miles on the car. There is no way to explain it or predict if it will ever let go.
But, I have my own theory on blown engines. It is not scientific nor does it point to any one factor. I simply think it is luck of the draw. Some engines will hold up and others won't. Just because my engine let go, doesn't mean that yours will.
barthelb drives his car HARD and is over 460rwhp on stock internals with the APS TT. He takes his car to the drag strip quite often and has over 30,000 total miles on the car. There is no way to explain it or predict if it will ever let go.
10-18-2005, 06:18 PM
#53
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Manifold boost pressure is all the same. It doesnt matter what kit you have, whether it is a supercharger or turbocharger. It is all about how you tune your car. A blown motor is based on weak internal components, fuel delivery, and timing. The reason why you can blow a N/A motor is because people get their cars tuned and if for some reason your timing is way off, you will smack a piston with a valve, or if your engine is running too lean it will get too hot and cook the oil and sieze. ITS NOT THE BRAND OF BOOST YOU RUN ITS THE STUPID TUNERS WHO BLOW YOUR ****.
10-18-2005, 06:37 PM
#55
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Originally Posted by BriGuyMax
440rwhp is really low for 12 pounds of boost on a stock motor.
It seems that you haven't followed too many supercharger threads because 440rwhp was the most by a Vortech SC on a stock block before mcduck made 450+ recently.
10-18-2005, 06:50 PM
#56
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The main point I was trying to get across that I would not expect our engine to hold up under 12lbs, and even less so with a SC.[/QUOTE]
FALSE! The supercharger power curve is linear. Boost increases as rpms increase. Twin turbos are more harsh for an engine because they make more boost than a supercharger earlier in the powerband. Superchargers only make max boost at redline. 12psi was at 6500rpms, but at 3000rpms, it made like 4psi. Just do some research and look at SC vs. TT dyno graphs to see what I am talking about.
And I agree, this thread is deteriorating because people are posting bad information. If you don't know from first hand experience... STFU! I don't care what your mother's, brother's, sister's, cousin told you about superchargers or twin turbos.
I speak from experience with both SC'ed and TT'ed 350Z's. barthelb and other members will back me up on this.
I'm done with this thread... unsubscribing
FALSE! The supercharger power curve is linear. Boost increases as rpms increase. Twin turbos are more harsh for an engine because they make more boost than a supercharger earlier in the powerband. Superchargers only make max boost at redline. 12psi was at 6500rpms, but at 3000rpms, it made like 4psi. Just do some research and look at SC vs. TT dyno graphs to see what I am talking about.
And I agree, this thread is deteriorating because people are posting bad information. If you don't know from first hand experience... STFU! I don't care what your mother's, brother's, sister's, cousin told you about superchargers or twin turbos.
I speak from experience with both SC'ed and TT'ed 350Z's. barthelb and other members will back me up on this.
I'm done with this thread... unsubscribing
10-18-2005, 07:05 PM
#57
Becuase turbos produce more trq down low in the powerband, and more peak trq, they are going to break more engines...all things being equal. For instance, a 450whp TT is going to put down nearly 450ft/lbs, at around 4000rpm. A 450whp Vortech is going to put down about 360ft/lbs at around the same RPM. Trq is wait breaks motors, when weak internals are to blame. Of course the tune has a lot to do with this, but I would argue that you might get away with a bad tune on an SC and not damage something...but run a bad tune on a TT, and something is going to break...right at the trq peak.
10-18-2005, 10:08 PM
#58
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Originally Posted by LouZer
I have a supercharger, not twin turbos. 12psi on a SC is a lot different than on a TT. We had to pull like 15 degrees of timing at the top so it wouldn't ping.
It seems that you haven't followed too many supercharger threads because 440rwhp was the most by a Vortech SC on a stock block before mcduck made 450+ recently.
It seems that you haven't followed too many supercharger threads because 440rwhp was the most by a Vortech SC on a stock block before mcduck made 450+ recently.
Boost is boost bud...no matter what's making it...the only reason a S/Cer will see slightly lower PEAK numbers at the same boost level is because of the parasitic loss associated with driving the blower belt. But you already knew that since you have first hand experience with everything.
12psi on turbo setups (even poor breathing ones) is over 500whp...so I'd expect 12psi on a S/Cer setup to be near 500whp.
10-19-2005, 03:36 AM
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Is boost really boost - this from peter has a different perspective.
http://www.*********.com/forums/inde...showtopic=9925
http://www.*********.com/forums/inde...showtopic=9925
10-19-2005, 03:40 AM
#60
Originally Posted by prescience
Is boost really boost - this from peter has a different perspective.
http://www.*********.com/forums/inde...showtopic=9925
http://www.*********.com/forums/inde...showtopic=9925