Kinetix SSV Dyno Results
06-18-2005, 05:42 PM
#61
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Albuquerque/NM
Posts: 241
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by nis350ztt
I don't believe Lorca's 350Z is tuned. I'm 90% sure he was using out-of-the-box tune from APS for 93 octane. So, anyone with an APS TT using stock maps will gain similar power. 10rwhp is sad for $800, you could have made 30-40rwhp for the same money with a few other products (upper plenum and test pipes come to mind). It's a pretty manifold, doesn't seem like much more than that. I hope you will see 20rwhp after a tune though, still not worth it (IMO), but not too bad for an intake manifold IMO.
Glad to see some real results on this I.M. that weren't skewed or anything though, thanks!
Glad to see some real results on this I.M. that weren't skewed or anything though, thanks!
06-18-2005, 06:22 PM
#62
Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Del Rio, Texas
Posts: 790
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Now, let's set something straight here. Which sources of heat are we concerned about? The heat absorbed into the plenum from contact with the HOT engine and contact with hot underhood air coming off the exhaust manifolds? Or are we concerned with the heated charge going into the intake manifold from the turbos?
In the first case, stainless steel is actually good for keeping heat out of the intake manifold so it can't be given to the intake charge. In the second, it shouldn't be a problem as the intercooler should be the primary means of getting heat out of the charge.
I'm stock right now and am probably just going to use a spacer/port that s__t until there is a larger body of knowledge out there and I get my turbos. I can tell you that the stock intake manifold (made of aluminum) transfers a lot of heat into the intake charge. If you need a demonstration, pop your hood right after you've been driving at resonable speeds and the intake will be about the temperature of the outside air cause it's being cooled by the air moving through it. Now, let the car idle with the hood open and touch the manifold after a few minutes. Let me tell you this, it will not be cool.
In the first case, stainless steel is actually good for keeping heat out of the intake manifold so it can't be given to the intake charge. In the second, it shouldn't be a problem as the intercooler should be the primary means of getting heat out of the charge.
I'm stock right now and am probably just going to use a spacer/port that s__t until there is a larger body of knowledge out there and I get my turbos. I can tell you that the stock intake manifold (made of aluminum) transfers a lot of heat into the intake charge. If you need a demonstration, pop your hood right after you've been driving at resonable speeds and the intake will be about the temperature of the outside air cause it's being cooled by the air moving through it. Now, let the car idle with the hood open and touch the manifold after a few minutes. Let me tell you this, it will not be cool.
06-18-2005, 10:01 PM
#63
Registered User
iTrader: (7)
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: N.Cal
Posts: 599
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I noticed the missing threads but could not remember whose they were, I have nothing against the SSV either but I would love to see someone actually tune their car to get the max potential out of it, as far as I know Steve will be the first to do this, hopefully this will answer many questions.
Like I mentioned before, I am still sitting on the fence with this product until results come in.
Like I mentioned before, I am still sitting on the fence with this product until results come in.
06-18-2005, 10:25 PM
#64
Registered User
iTrader: (13)
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Sac
Posts: 2,141
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well ran my car for the first time today in a month. I added the new IM, Headers, Greddy evo2 exhaust and a few other things. I also have crawford cats. I drove the car for about 30min to the bodyshop. I got there and opened the hood. Ive been reading this thread so I thought I would see how hot the new IM was. I put my hand on it and guess what! It was cool enough to hold my hand on! I was very shocked cause the stocker always got REALLY hot! I was also shocked to find that with all the new mods my boost was @ 8.5 with the stock pulley. My air/fuel also went up to 10.9. I have a tune setup with all these new mods on Monday at the Z car garage. Ill keep you guys posted!
06-19-2005, 03:10 AM
#65
Registered User
iTrader: (6)
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Eltmann, Franconia
Posts: 1,676
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by TurboTim
By applying the thermocoating to an intake(whether it is aluminum,stainless or unobtanium), you are keeping the heat inside the intake.That is what Jet-hot is for, to keep the heat in. Not the best choice for induction.
It's a real shame that this is thermodynamically impossible. If heat is blocked from going in one direction then it must also be blocked from going in the other direction.
Also (from my only minor knowledge of thermodynamics
), heat (unless you are actively putting energy into the transfer, i.e. in the peltier effect) only moves from a higher temp area to a lower temp area. In this case, from the engine bay into the intake. Thus, thermally protecting the charge (inside the intake stream) would make perfect sense.I think you're simply confused -- the reason you jet-hot coat your headers / exhaust is to, yes, keep heat in... that is because the gas on the inside of the tube is hotter, and would, naturally, transfer its heat energy to the outside. Thus, jet-hot keeps the heat on the inside. The fact that "jet-hot keeps the heat on the inside" in this case is a factor of the circumstances and the basic laws of thermodynamics, not some magical property of Jet-Hot to only be one-way heat opaque.
Obviously, Jet-Hot would work in the opposite direction on the intake stream, keeping it cool from the latent heat in the engine bay.
Here is some homework for you before you grace us with your next post:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...books&n=507846
06-19-2005, 03:14 AM
#66
Sponsor
Forged Internals.com
Forged Internals.com
Originally Posted by Machupo
So, what you're telling me is that Jet Hot has this magical ability to only let heat pass in one direction? (Outside to Inside) But keeps heat from passing Inside to Outside? (Like a one-way mirror)
It's a real shame that this is thermodynamically impossible. If heat is blocked from going in one direction then it must also be blocked from going in the other direction.
Also (from my only minor knowledge of thermodynamics), heat (unless you are actively putting energy into the transfer, i.e. in the peltier effect) only moves from a higher temp area to a lower temp area. In this case, from the engine bay into the intake. Thus, thermally protecting the charge (inside the intake stream) would make perfect sense.
I think you're simply confused -- the reason you jet-hot coat your headers / exhaust is to, yes, keep heat in... that is because the gas on the inside of the tube is hotter, and would, naturally, transfer its heat energy to the outside. Thus, jet-hot keeps the heat on the inside. The fact that "jet-hot keeps the heat on the inside" in this case is a factor of the circumstances and the basic laws of thermodynamics, not some magical property of Jet-Hot to only be one-way heat opaque.
Obviously, Jet-Hot would work in the opposite direction on the intake stream, keeping it cool from the latent heat in the engine bay.
Here is some homework for you before you grace us with your next post:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...books&n=507846
It's a real shame that this is thermodynamically impossible. If heat is blocked from going in one direction then it must also be blocked from going in the other direction.
Also (from my only minor knowledge of thermodynamics
), heat (unless you are actively putting energy into the transfer, i.e. in the peltier effect) only moves from a higher temp area to a lower temp area. In this case, from the engine bay into the intake. Thus, thermally protecting the charge (inside the intake stream) would make perfect sense.I think you're simply confused -- the reason you jet-hot coat your headers / exhaust is to, yes, keep heat in... that is because the gas on the inside of the tube is hotter, and would, naturally, transfer its heat energy to the outside. Thus, jet-hot keeps the heat on the inside. The fact that "jet-hot keeps the heat on the inside" in this case is a factor of the circumstances and the basic laws of thermodynamics, not some magical property of Jet-Hot to only be one-way heat opaque.
Obviously, Jet-Hot would work in the opposite direction on the intake stream, keeping it cool from the latent heat in the engine bay.
Here is some homework for you before you grace us with your next post:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...books&n=507846
06-19-2005, 03:19 AM
#67
Registered User
iTrader: (6)
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Eltmann, Franconia
Posts: 1,676
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by nis350ztt
Ouch, insulting a guy that built a turbo kit for the 350Z...
Jet-Hot would be even better for N/A folks using the IM as it would make perfect sense
06-19-2005, 09:31 AM
#68
Vendor - Former Vendor
iTrader: (11)
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: San Diego
Posts: 1,353
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So, what you're telling me is that Jet Hot has this magical ability to only let heat pass in one direction? (Outside to Inside) But keeps heat from passing Inside to Outside? (Like a one-way mirror)
It's a real shame that this is thermodynamically impossible. If heat is blocked from going in one direction then it must also be blocked from going in the other direction.
You are misunderstanding what I said.Sure heat can pass in both directions with jet hot coating.However, the coating is being applied to the outside of the intake which means it will keep the heat in.The radiated heat from the engine bay that supposedly the precious Jet-hot coating is protecting your intake from is of little importance considering the stainless will get hot and stay hot.
Also (from my only minor knowledge of thermodynamics), heat (unless you are actively putting energy into the transfer, i.e. in the peltier effect) only moves from a higher temp area to a lower temp area. In this case, from the engine bay into the intake. Thus, thermally protecting the charge (inside the intake stream) would make perfect sense.
The heat transfer from the cylinder head is nothing compared to the heat radiating from the engine compartment?
I think you're simply confused -- the reason you jet-hot coat your headers / exhaust is to, yes, keep heat in... that is because the gas on the inside of the tube is hotter, and would, naturally, transfer its heat energy to the outside. Thus, jet-hot keeps the heat on the inside. The fact that "jet-hot keeps the heat on the inside" in this case is a factor of the circumstances and the basic laws of thermodynamics, not some magical property of Jet-Hot to only be one-way heat opaque.
I never said that.You are manipulating my words my friend.The primary purpose of the thermal coating is for insulation.You get your headers coated, it keeps the heat "in" which means less radiated heat in the engine compartment. Now you are supposedly using the coating on your intake to keep the radiated heat from the engine compartment "out" ignoring the fact that heat transfer is taking place between the cylinder heads and intake manifold.
Obviously, Jet-Hot would work in the opposite direction on the intake stream, keeping it cool from the latent heat in the engine bay.
This is where we are having a miscommunication on the subject! You are thinking the radiated heat from the engine bay is more of a concern then the heat transfer that is taking place between the aluminum and stainless which is my big concern.
Here is some homework for you before you grace us with your next post:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...books&n=507846
Ok so the book is written in English and it is 160 pages.Its shipping weight is .8 ounces. How is that relevant to the discussion? Actually you wont have to worry about me gracing the boards with my next post. I said what I had to say.Take it for whats its worth.The one thing that I will say that some others have already said in this same thread is that...... if stainless was such a viable option for induction purposes then why is it that no auto manufacturers, use it for OEM applications?
It's a real shame that this is thermodynamically impossible. If heat is blocked from going in one direction then it must also be blocked from going in the other direction.
You are misunderstanding what I said.Sure heat can pass in both directions with jet hot coating.However, the coating is being applied to the outside of the intake which means it will keep the heat in.The radiated heat from the engine bay that supposedly the precious Jet-hot coating is protecting your intake from is of little importance considering the stainless will get hot and stay hot.
Also (from my only minor knowledge of thermodynamics
), heat (unless you are actively putting energy into the transfer, i.e. in the peltier effect) only moves from a higher temp area to a lower temp area. In this case, from the engine bay into the intake. Thus, thermally protecting the charge (inside the intake stream) would make perfect sense.The heat transfer from the cylinder head is nothing compared to the heat radiating from the engine compartment?
I think you're simply confused -- the reason you jet-hot coat your headers / exhaust is to, yes, keep heat in... that is because the gas on the inside of the tube is hotter, and would, naturally, transfer its heat energy to the outside. Thus, jet-hot keeps the heat on the inside. The fact that "jet-hot keeps the heat on the inside" in this case is a factor of the circumstances and the basic laws of thermodynamics, not some magical property of Jet-Hot to only be one-way heat opaque.
I never said that.You are manipulating my words my friend.The primary purpose of the thermal coating is for insulation.You get your headers coated, it keeps the heat "in" which means less radiated heat in the engine compartment. Now you are supposedly using the coating on your intake to keep the radiated heat from the engine compartment "out" ignoring the fact that heat transfer is taking place between the cylinder heads and intake manifold.
Obviously, Jet-Hot would work in the opposite direction on the intake stream, keeping it cool from the latent heat in the engine bay.
This is where we are having a miscommunication on the subject! You are thinking the radiated heat from the engine bay is more of a concern then the heat transfer that is taking place between the aluminum and stainless which is my big concern.
Here is some homework for you before you grace us with your next post:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...books&n=507846
Ok so the book is written in English and it is 160 pages.Its shipping weight is .8 ounces. How is that relevant to the discussion? Actually you wont have to worry about me gracing the boards with my next post. I said what I had to say.Take it for whats its worth.The one thing that I will say that some others have already said in this same thread is that...... if stainless was such a viable option for induction purposes then why is it that no auto manufacturers, use it for OEM applications?
06-19-2005, 10:01 AM
#69
Registered User
iTrader: (6)
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Eltmann, Franconia
Posts: 1,676
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by turbotim
This is where we are having a miscommunication on the subject! You are thinking the radiated heat from the engine bay is more of a concern then the heat transfer that is taking place between the aluminum and stainless which is my big concern.
the idea is to isolate the intake manifold / intake from the rest of the engine (thermally) since it is much cooler than everything else.
everything in your last post was valid -- the only question I was having was that people were discounting the use of jet hot to isolate the manifold from non-continguous sources (in which, i think it would be just about the best you could do)
now, jet hot on the outside of the manifold should work just as well for keeping the insides cool (if you are isolating the manifold from the top of the engine with the thermal gaskets)... the whole idea of insulation works in both directions
can we at least agree on that?
06-19-2005, 10:31 AM
#70
maybe i'm wrong, but I thought when you got something jethot coated, you could coat the inside OR outside
I looked up what jethot coating is and it's aluminum and ceramic bonded together somehow.
The reason I thought it might be worthwhile in the first place was because SPL's intake tube is aluminum and the inside is coated with JETHOT
http://www.splparts.com/Parts/Z33/En...ke/default.asp
So I just assumed it'd work on an intake manifold too and that would be the benefit.
I don't know, it might end up being a wash in the end, and didn't mean for this to get out of hand.
It seems to me that stainless steel would take a lot longer to heat up and a lot longer to cool down than aluminum. But when it did finally heat up, it'd be the same temp as aluminum or even colder. People are making shift ***** out of stainless steel because they don't get hot after sitting in the summer heat all day long
There are better thermo conductors than aluminum BTW such as copper, silver, and gold - not saying they'd make good materials for car parts, but the Mclaren F1 engine bay was lined with gold for it's thermo properties
I looked up what jethot coating is and it's aluminum and ceramic bonded together somehow.
The reason I thought it might be worthwhile in the first place was because SPL's intake tube is aluminum and the inside is coated with JETHOT
http://www.splparts.com/Parts/Z33/En...ke/default.asp
So I just assumed it'd work on an intake manifold too and that would be the benefit.
I don't know, it might end up being a wash in the end, and didn't mean for this to get out of hand.
It seems to me that stainless steel would take a lot longer to heat up and a lot longer to cool down than aluminum. But when it did finally heat up, it'd be the same temp as aluminum or even colder. People are making shift ***** out of stainless steel because they don't get hot after sitting in the summer heat all day long
There are better thermo conductors than aluminum BTW such as copper, silver, and gold - not saying they'd make good materials for car parts, but the Mclaren F1 engine bay was lined with gold for it's thermo properties
Last edited by sentry65; 06-19-2005 at 10:39 AM.
06-19-2005, 11:26 AM
#71
Geeeze......The Moderator...has let this thread get way off the subject at hand . Can we get back to talking about Lorca's dyno with the new IM and the IM it self .
Why would this new IM show more air flow on a SC [ lean out ] and not show it with a TT set up ?
Why would this new IM show more air flow on a SC [ lean out ] and not show it with a TT set up ?
06-19-2005, 04:40 PM
#72
Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Albuquerque, New Mexico
Posts: 1,671
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks "booger"! Things get "way off" toooooo often. Lately I find myself spending less and less time on this site despite the obligation I feel I have to respond to questions on SSV IM. I still find people on ALL sites that are just now becoming aware of this Kinetix product.
06-19-2005, 05:10 PM
#73
we're discussing the manifold. I didn't think talking about material and what would be the best setup with the SSV to get the best performance is off topic at all.
Actually, there's NOTHING to talk about as far as the dyno numbers until monday when the car get's tuned for the SSV. Otherwise everything has already been said that needs to be said. All we can do otherwise is wait. So why not talk about the other aspects of owning this manifold?
I'm always sick of people coming in acting like forum cops. If people get into pointless name calling, ok then that needs to be moderated, but otherwise chill out and let the rest of us talk about what we want to talk about regarding the subject at hand.....
Actually, there's NOTHING to talk about as far as the dyno numbers until monday when the car get's tuned for the SSV. Otherwise everything has already been said that needs to be said. All we can do otherwise is wait. So why not talk about the other aspects of owning this manifold?
I'm always sick of people coming in acting like forum cops. If people get into pointless name calling, ok then that needs to be moderated, but otherwise chill out and let the rest of us talk about what we want to talk about regarding the subject at hand.....
06-19-2005, 09:24 PM
#75
Registered User
iTrader: (8)
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 1,593
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
All threads mutate as they go along.
If we were having a face to face conversation one thing may lead to another. Same thing in a thread. You may say start a new thread, but that'd be like we both did a bout face, walked around the block, and then met up again and talked about the next piece of related information.
Anyway, I didn't buy the SSV as originally intended b/c of Kinetix's past reputation. Too much money to spend and not have it work out. If it does really add 50hp that'd be awesome, but the first independent dyno says otherwise. Need more dynos!
I agree that aluminum is better for intake parts.
If we were having a face to face conversation one thing may lead to another. Same thing in a thread. You may say start a new thread, but that'd be like we both did a bout face, walked around the block, and then met up again and talked about the next piece of related information.
Anyway, I didn't buy the SSV as originally intended b/c of Kinetix's past reputation. Too much money to spend and not have it work out. If it does really add 50hp that'd be awesome, but the first independent dyno says otherwise. Need more dynos!
I agree that aluminum is better for intake parts.
