PM Sharif...hes actually the first person that mentioned it. I just confirmed it with Turbonetics....

PS: No offense taken but I am NOT on Turbonetics pay roll. Just to make that clear.

 

It's more of a love affair, MiaPlaya and Turbonetics

 

i had a reflash done a while back, primarily to address the timing issues discussed by MIA... (I had the standard map copied into the "advanced" map position- to prevent a timing advance that wasn't anticipated, or welcomed , for that matter)
while I was at it, I had the L-spec done (raised rev limiter, removed governor)
also, I had the ECU scaled to 440cc injectors...and planned to scale the injectors further to the 550's via e-manage (i was told this would allow the car to run better, minor adjsutments with e-manage to fine tune vs. scaling from stock 280cc to 550cc)

Well... I sent my ECU back last week and had the fuel maps set back to the stock configuration...
REASONS I HAD THE SCALING SET BACK AND WHY I SUGGEST AGAINST ANY INJECTOR SCALING OR FUEL MAP ALTERATIONS WHEN USING THE E-MANAGE TO TUNE...
1) the ecu's possessed nature: on the dyno, a spot at 4200rpm went PIG rich, had to pull out tons of fuel...for example..values at 4100 rpm would be at say, 45..and at 4200...values at 3...then at 4400/4500 back to 45 again...

2)After tuning around the rich spot...the tune was pretty good, a bit of a hesitation at the rich spot...but hardly noticeable...but...2 days later, A/F showing 14:1 where it once showed 11.2:1 at WOT!!!

3)Street tuned to add fuel back to the lean map...able to get it tuned well...seemed as thought the "rich spot" disappeared!!!....this street tune lasted for 2 days, then the tune started getting lean...AGAIN!!!

4)noticed my fuel pump was noisier (i know this has nothing to do with the ecu, but i suspected my fuel pump was going bad as well-so i got a new one)

Sent back ECU, got it back a few days later....replaced fuel pump...retuned...the tune this time around was dialed in, in less than an hour (previous dyno tune took 7hrs --granted we had timing maps to mess with as well, and an array of obstacles were showing their evil little heads

so, in conclusion...(I know Sharif is planning on sending his ecu back as well)

...Don't touch the injector scaling when getting your ECU reflashed if you are runing a piggyback!

 

Actually, they will. I contacted Unichip when I was considering APS TT and asked where I could get it tuned in the southeast (none were listed on the site) and someone told me about a place in AL. (I clearly specified it was the Unichip from the APS TT kit)

 

Hmm interesting the Unichip guy I talked to told me something different.

 

An interesting discussion on the timing, maps, and piggybacks. Too bad the discussion is flawed WRT the APS systems. The Unichip is upstream of the ECU and tells it what to do, not the other way around. Therefore, the Unichip can greatly influence which map is pulled when by the ECU. This is part and parcel of the load based dyno discussion etc, etc. Rather than responding to a limited number of variables, the APS Unichip strategy is to account for as many variables as possible in as many throttle positions and loads as possible...and thereby heavily influence what the ECU sees and does. This is inline with a fully engineered solution emphasizing safety. Bottomline for most casual viewers of this thread: there are a number of inaccuracies based on faulty assumptions on this thread. I suggest someone (far more knowledgeable and technical than I) gather the facts and place it on a technical sticky thread. I like all the discussion back and forth, but there is a lot of incorrect information on many threads and it would be nice to collect the facts after all the hashing out has been done.

 

^^^Peter is that you^^^

SUD, I mentioned this in another post, but other piggy's are upstream as well...UNchip doesnt have the monopoly on this. Believe me, I am no way suggesting that APS's tuning stratgy is flawed...its actually...by far..the best system out of the box. And this is the precisely the reason we sell the APS kits. APS spent a LOT of time and energy thorough tuning their Unichip device to safely run the VQ motor at the various load points, and under various conditions. This, IMHO, is the primary reason that the APS hasnt been damaged motors at the rate of the other kits.

That said, a properly tuned setup, whether it be Greddy, Turbonetics, or PE, can provide the same level of safety and performance. Unfortunately, too many users taking tuning into their own hands, or increase boost without an understanding of the precise consecquences of what they are doing. Others may have been given incorrection information from their tuning shops. Mistakes can happen. The APS system locks things down, so mistakes cant happen.

If you look at the boards, many of the F/I founding members have had very good experiences with ALL of the kits. Take a look at Phunk, Westpak, Tim, Booger, and others. If you have a stronger understanding of these concepts, then F/I can be had very safely.

 

Maybe, maybe not , you do sound a bit like Peter. As mentioned earlier , regardless of how the Unichip influences the ECM. , if one wishes to raise the rev limiter and/or the speed limiter, it is still more prudent to lock down the "ECM timing maps" before tuning the Unichip (especially for higher boost on a low CR block) "even on a load based dyno".

So in response to my statement, can you prove to me that this method will cause harm? I'd be pretty suprised if you could.

IMO it is preferential "to not need to undo" the non-linear remapping of the ECM timing maps with the piggyback.

 

Hi Peter...how are you?

 

Always seems like every company has different reps telling everyone something different.

 

Just dropped my car off at the shop for some tweaking (smoke issue & fuel fumes) and had a chance to talk with them about this very issue.

1)They said they researched the issue through two friends that are Nissan Master Techs, and they confirmed there ARE "three maps in the ECU".

2)My tech also says that the installation of the Unichip in line BEFORE the ECU allows it the assert control over what the ECU sees.

I think I'll follow Peters' advice, get to a Unichip tuner, and leave the ECU alone. It's not worth the money to me just to raise the rpm limiter. Now, the decision comes down to Brainstorm, Scotts Performance, or Z-Car Garage....... Californy here I come!

 

i don't understand how any piggyback system (unichip) can ever prevent the ecu from changing maps...
it's your risk, personally I would (and did) reflash for the timing maps

 

As mentioned by "SUD" , the Unichip (ie , pre wired piggyback controller) can:

"heavily influence what the ECU sees and does"

However; this is not the same as :

"guarantee what the ECU sees and does"

 

I should run out and buy a lottery ticket. I called Ted at Scott Performance and was discussing Unichip tuning when he asked "Where are you located?" He's coming to town for a class and IS GOING TO TUNE MY CAR AT UNICHIP!
There goes my California vacation........
Just for the record, he doesn't reflash with the Unichip and neither does Brainstorm, according to what they told me this morning. (Let's see, I saved $600.00 by not reflashing and $500.00 not driving to CA and back. I can start buying my bodykit!)

 

Some of you are strange Maybe paranoid is more like it. I bought my G35 several months ago. I know very little about FI and its technical details in particular. I am however interested in FI. I have been doing everything possible to educate myself; doing all sorts of research on the net...far beyond just these boards. I don't understand half of what I read

I am also interested in this from a business perspective. I am the COO (Chief Operating Officer) of a significant business, and a lot of my previous background is in management consulting. Therefore, I am interested in the business strategy of the various FI companies. I am particularly interested in APS because I see very well what they are trying to do and how the entire business model works. It just so happens that APS' core strategy likely fits my FI desires very well. Anyway, I am getting to understand some of the intricacies of the engineering in the APS solution and how that fits into the overall value proposition they are going with. I see how this fits into supply chain, channel management, engineering, testing/QA, pricing, manufacturing etc.

Sharif (AKA Paranoid 1)...all in good fun:

I never said that the Unichip was the only upstream piggy. I know a little about a few of them, a bit more about the Unichip, and nothing about a lot of others. We agree that APS has spent a lot of time and has chosen this strategy for safety and that is a primary reason for the seeming success of their solution.

We would also agree that safety is a primary part of their value proposition. We would agree that's why they settled on the configuration they have. We would agree that for many (perhaps most) people a safe out of the box 400RWHP is what they want. It is a great value proposition for myself and many others.

We would also agree that there are other value propositions. I am a critic of Greddy, specifically the notion of a Greddy kit. It is not a kit, it is a collection of parts and missing some essential ones. Greddy as a company/product line is crap. As a fan of business, me thinks that Greddy deserves to go out of business. Now does that mean that all Greddy parts are crap? Or that a Greddy solution is crap? Of course not!!!

Their supposed solution is actually you...the talented tuner. Without the tinkerers and tuners Greddy is a ticking bomb with a ten sec fuse. But there is another value proposition, primarily bigger HP for which the Greddy parts can work just fine....in the hands of a proper talented tuner. Nothing wrong with that and I am well aware that many people are driving big HP with a properly setup and tuned solution. Outstanding. Great value proposition. It really is your value proposition though...not Greddy's. You just so happen to use some of their parts.

You must realize that you are both in bed with APS and a potential competitor to APS. Do you not realize this is why you and Peter have tussled so often? You are in a different business. Your value proposition (Big HP/safe tune Greddy based) competes to a certain degree with APS. If/when APS releases a fully engineered relatively safe Big HP solution the situation will get either worse or better, but will not stay the same. The result will be dependent upon whether their solution is perceived to be as good/better, as flexible or not, and as safe or better than a talented tuner Greddy based system ie: this part of YOUR value proposition. If so, then Greddy will be heavily marginalized, retailers will try to compete on price, inventory will go stale, and eventually everyone will try to dump their stock lest it become dead. Some market share will remain, but they have already lost the war to Turbonetics (which also appears to be a very good solution) and APS for the majority of the market (400WHP/no internals/safe). A few of the others may be ok as well like PE, SSR whatever. But they appear not to have the resources to be serious players or too little too late.

In any case, can a talented tuner make things right? Sure they can. It is just the differences between a manufactured solution/complete product and a service solution/talented tuner. Either can work. The only question is what market do you want to serve.

G3po (AKA Paranoid 2)...also in good fun.

Sorry bud, I can't prove anything to you. But your comments about locking down the maps when raising the rev or speed limiters makes sense to me. I don't see how this could do harm since the ECU is ultimately making the final decision on the maps anyway...even with the Unichip upstream. Don't really know though. I'd be curious too as to the actual facts. BTW, I wasn't addressing my previous post to any of your comments as I haven't really explored the rev/speed limiter issues yet. Probably never will worry too much about it since I am unlikely to ever go that far. Still curious though. Good question...hope you/we get an answer.

350zDCalb (AKA Paranoid 3)...still very much in good fun.

I am well. And how are you? I have read a number of your posts in various threads. Seems like you have gone through a wild ride. Have to admit I am jealous of your huge WHP...hehe. Wicked stuff. Not going to do the internals myself, but I love reading about your guys rides. Hope she gives you miles and miles of fun!!!

 

 

nis350ztt:

I did not say that. I said: Bottomline for most casual viewers of this thread: there are a number of inaccuracies based on faulty assumptions on this thread. I suggest someone (far more knowledgeable and technical than I) gather the facts and place it on a technical sticky thread. I like all the discussion back and forth, but there is a lot of incorrect information on many threads and it would be nice to collect the facts after all the hashing out has been done.

You should chill and not take things so personal.

Sorry but I prefer to be one of the anonymous masses on-line. I only mentioned these things because I am enthusiatic about business. In any case, my business has nothing to do with cars if that is what you were curious about.

and I don't see these as contradictory at all. Greddy states on their website:

The implication is that their 'solution' is in fact a reasonably total solution which gives you everything you need and is driveable and reliable. It is also upgradeable. As far as a kit or solution it is crap. Hence Greddy as a company/product line is crap. Nevertheless, their so called solution contains other people's manufactured parts. Would I say that the actual turbochargers are crap? Of course not. They are a fine product/part in and of themselves. But Greddy is not purporting to sell parts...they are purporting to sell a solution "specifically designed for driveability and reliability..." And that is just plain wrong.

Ummm? I agree. Think you need to go back and reread that part. Many/most was/is in reference to 400WHP, no internals, safe. This will always be the largest part of the turbo market. Greddy has already lost the war for this market to Turbonetics, APS and a host of others. Where Turbonetics and APS have yet to go in a big way is BIG HP. Time will tell if Greddy gets squeezed there as well.


I don't think this is incorrect at all. I would agree however that it is not the only reason and personalities and such come into play. Nevertheless, they are in different businesses which is a root cause of some of the conflict. Sharif is a tuner and retailer. He will sell anything that he can and rep anything he thinks can sell. He will also bundle product with other valuable services. Retailer and tuner tinkerer. He will try to be as fair as he can to all his products and try to present the different possibilities as close as he can to the wants of his specific customers. He will naturally support big HP Greddy solutions knowing that he can devise a safe powerful path. He will naturally support 400WHP solutions with APS or Turbonetics. Or superchargers. His loyalty is to his end customers. He will have no long term loyalty to any product line/manufacturer. He will drop them like a hot potato if they don't sell or go out of vogue or whatever...and be off on to the next product that comes along. If any of his product/solution manufacturers go out of business it is no big/catastrophic deal. Perfectly natural given his business.

Peter reps a product/solution manufacturer. He doesn't sell other things. He doesn't sell to end customers. He sells his product through other wholesalers and retailers. He is going to aggressively defend his product and seek to differentiate it from all other products/solutions as best he can. He will try to fit his product/solution into as many possibile scenarios as he can. He is definately not going to actively promote other options. He is going to bore you to death with all of the features and benefits of his product/solution. He is going to go over it again and again. What else does he have to talk about except his product/solution? If his product goes down the drain it IS a big deal/catastrophic.

If Sharif says something good about APS products, Peter is going to say: yep. yep, right on man now yer talking.

If Sharif says something good about another product/solution Peter is going to find something comparably good about the APS system. That's his job, not to be your independent I'll do anything tuner tinkerer. That's Sharif's job.

This is all perfectly natural. It is the nature of business and competition and it is at the heart of what is happening. Undoubtably it is amplified by personalities, the internet sucking as a medium for tone etc. But for a lot...it cannot be any other way...else one or the other is not doing their job.

 

Take a note from your own words, i'm telling you that I am not upset in anyway and I am chilled out. Just having a debate/conversation (which, I think is pretty civil so far ).

(we're getting a little too off topic, want to take it to PM instead?)

 

It's all good man. Me thinks you make an excellent point. I really did not mean to imply in my first post that it was all BS or things were horribly off track. I simply meant that I was pretty sure a couple of things were not represented quite right and as a non-expert would sincerely like to see more sticky technical threads that synthesize all the debate and collect the facts together. Obviously I missed the mark on tone or something and morphed into Peter in some people's eyes

Everything else is pretty much my passion for business. I really do appreciate what APS is trying to do with its business model. Likewise I really do appreciate what Sharif and the rest of the tuner tinkerer types offer. And I think other solutions like Turbonetics have real potential as well. Probably more too but I don't know enough about them or their business to really comment that much.

And yes I do think this dialogue has been quite civil If I have represented anything otherwise then I offer my apologies and will have to blame poor wording, tone or simply inadequacy on my part PM works for me, but right now I'm all thought out. Stupid business (my) demands more attention from me tonight!!!! Ack!!!! Even my dogs are mad at me for not paying them enough attention tonight.

Cheers

P.S. I don't know either of these gentlemen so I have to rely on stereotyping

 

uh, what is it that you appreciate? What are they doing that every other company isn't? They make and sell a product. The only thing different they are doing is that they sell the most complete kit on the market. Not everyone wants a cookie cutter set up. Half the fun of modding my car has been putting all of the pieces together.....not much fun in making one purchase that includes everything. Just my opionon though.